Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #5

[Herat]

From Aljazzera:

Far from Putin’s Russia, Tajikistan’s people feel sanctions pain

 

[sunshineray]

With complete plausible deniability, because they are not actually members of Russian military. Neat side step of any responsibility. It is like setting wolves into a sheep pasture. And Putin knows it.

Yet more war crimes to prosecute. Has a government's leaders ever been held criminally accountable for the foreign mercenaries they hire who barbarically kill others for money at their behest?

 

[sunshineray]

And if he goes...are we??

Good question, who's waiting in the wings?

 

[Arkay]

The Kyiv Independent on Twitter - 18 minutes ago
️Russia claims it will stop the war immediately if Ukraine agrees to:
- cease military action
- change constitution to enshrine neutrality
- recognize Crimea as Russian territory
- recognize the Russian-controlled areas of Donetsk and Luhansk as independent states

Source: Statement by Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov, cited by Reuters.


Bringing over from the last thread....


Wow, this is the first I've heard of this.

My primary desire is for Ukranians to survive. But I want them to survive as Ukrainians.

It's easier for me to make declarations from my couch in NYC than for someone who is in Ukraine. However, although I would want this "compromise" in a way so the murders end, I don't think this would be the way to go.

First, Putin has demonstrated over decades that he will lie and connive and break any commitment in order to get what he wants. If Ukraine agrees to give away the pro-Russian chunks of its country, it will no longer be a whole country. I agree with the poster (was it you, @Fika)? who said it would equate to the US surrendering Texas to Mexico. Or Alaska to Russia. But time and experience have shown that Putin will not stop there. Those three regions will give him more Russian forces for a future renewed attack on the rest of the (diminished) Ukraine.

Second, Putin has a nasty habit of killing or trying to kill those brave enough to have stood up to him.

Off the top of my head, he poisoned the former Ukraine president, Yushchenko, with Agent Orange. He poisoned Litvinenko with tea...he died. He poisoned Navalny with Novochik. He poisoned that father and daughter who, IIRC, were sitting on a bench in England. He had an opponent, I forget the name, shot on a bridge in the shadow of the Kremlin. I know there are more that I can't recall.

There is no way on this earth, IMO, that Putin will allow Zelenskyy to live. If they don't assassinate him now, they will get him later. Maybe stabbing him with one of those poisoned umbrellas, or any of the other ways they get to their targets. (With Navalny, the poison was on his underwear, and he survived the coma). Of course Navalny bravely chose to return to Russia, knowing he'd be imprisoned, so he's still not at all safe.

Zelenskyy is the bravest of the brave, but Putin is the most ruthless of the ruthless.

On the other hand, it would be fantastic if not one more Ukrainian was murdered or had to flee.

IMO these terms of surrender are not in the interest of Ukraine, and will not end with these concessions. But Ukrainians will die every day in the meantime, so I don't know.

 

[sunshineray]

I think this is a sign of trouble in the Russian troops.

It sounds like they are, by and large, young untested troops who may or may not feel the pressure of invading their relatives and neighbors.

The open casting for Warner Group mercenaries and Syrian fighters tells me that Putin is not getting the results he wanted.

It also tells me he would "obviate the truth" in pulling Russian troops in a cease-fire, but leave the ruthless and uncontrollable paid mercenaries. Thereby giving him plausible deniability.

"Those aren't Russian guys slaughtering, pilaging, and raping Ukranians" he would say with a sly smile.

Once KGB, always a villain...JMO

 

[AliceInPain]

Only the Russian poor and low or middle class people suffer from the sanctions. The top people don't care, they have funds, savings and sponsors everywhere. It will only be the innocents suffering. Unless someone decides to drop a bomb right on his head we won't get rid of him.

 

[sunshineray]

The Kyiv Independent on Twitter - 18 minutes ago
️Russia claims it will stop the war immediately if Ukraine agrees to:
- cease military action
- change constitution to enshrine neutrality
- recognize Crimea as Russian territory
- recognize the Russian-controlled areas of Donetsk and Luhansk as independent states

Source: Statement by Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov, cited by Reuters.


Bringing over from the last thread....


Wow, this is the first I've heard of this.

My primary desire is for Ukranians to survive. But I want them to survive as Ukrainians.

It's easier for me to make declarations from my couch in NYC than for someone who is in Ukraine. However, although I would want this "compromise" in a way so the murders end, I don't think this would be the way to go.

First, Putin has demonstrated over decades that he will lie and connive and break any commitment in order to get what he wants. If Ukraine agrees to give away the pro-Russian chunks of its country, it will no longer be a whole country. I agree with the poster (was it you, @Fika)? who said it would equate to the US surrendering Texas to Mexico. Or Alaska to Russia. But time and experience have shown that Putin will not stop there. Those three regions will give him more Russian forces for a future renewed attack on the rest of the (diminished) Ukraine.

Second, Putin has a nasty habit of killing or trying to kill those brave enough to have stood up to him.

Off the top of my head, he poisoned the former Ukraine president, Yushchenko, with Agent Orange. He poisoned Litvinenko with tea...he died. He poisoned Navalny with Novochik. He poisoned that father and daughter who, IIRC, were sitting on a bench in England. He had an opponent, I forget the name, shot on a bridge in the shadow of the Kremlin. I know there are more that I can't recall.

There is no way on this earth, IMO, that Putin will allow Zelenskyy to live. If they don't assassinate him now, they will get him later. Maybe stabbing him with one of those poisoned umbrellas, or any of the other ways they get to their targets. (With Navalny, the poison was on his underwear, and he survived the coma). Of course Navalny bravely chose to return to Russia, knowing he'd be imprisoned, so he's still not at all safe.

Zelenskyy is the bravest of the brave, but Putin is the most ruthless of the ruthless.

On the other hand, it would be fantastic if not one more Ukrainian was murdered or had to flee.

IMO these terms of surrender are not in the interest of Ukraine, and will not end with these concessions. But Ukrainians will die every day in the meantime, so I don't know.

You make good points. I do wonder though...is it ever ok to lie to a liar? It's a moral dilemma for sure. Useful or hypocritical?

 

[Herat]

Interesting flight:

TUL9721 A Russian flagged jet that regularly does a Moscow- Kazan run today is very strangely out over the Black Sea over Turkey, now looks like it is descending into Istanbul airport.

Would this be an advance crew for the meeting of Russia's odious Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and Ukraine's Kuleba?

9U545 Air Moldova flight just landed in Anatalya this morining.

FSU4853 Ukranian airline flight from Poland is currently headed there, too.

Wow. I think I just hit the trifecta: Russia, Molova, Ukraine!

From CNN:

Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov to meet Ukrainian counterpart Kuleba on Thursday, says Turkey

From CNN's Isil Sariyuce and Jomana Karadsheh in Istanbul

The foreign ministers of Russia and Ukraine will meet in Turkey on Thursday, according to the Turkish foreign minister.

In a televised statement, Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu said he will also be attending the meeting in Antalya between Sergei Lavrov and Dmytro Kuleba.

“Upon President Erdogan’s initiatives and our intensive diplomatic efforts, Foreign Ministers Sergei Lavrov of Russia and Dmytro Kuleba of Ukraine have decided to meet with my participation on the margins of the Antalya Diplomacy Forum,” Çavuşoğlu tweeted.

CNN has contacted the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry for confirmation. Çavuşoğlu said both Lavrov and Kuleba confirmed their participation.

The Antalya Diplomacy Forum is an annual event, and before Russia invaded Ukraine, the list of attendees included NA

 

[worldwatcher]

The Turkish Bayraktar TB2
The first drone to have its own song!
De Turkse Bayraktar TB2
(English subtitles)

 

[sunshineray]

Only the Russian poor and low or middle class people suffer from the sanctions. The top people don't care, they have funds, savings and sponsors everywhere. It will only be the innocents suffering. Unless someone decides to drop a bomb right on his head we won't get rid of him.

Gavrilo Princip was the 19 year old son of poor farmers and he changed history by assassinating the Archduke Ferdinand.

I personally think it's probably going to be someone from the military that gets to Putin.

 

[worldwatcher]

@Herat okay wanted to reply on your previous quote post,but the thread is closed and a new one started.My cellphone battery is almost gone,so pls forgive my quick reply
So maybe we should look at his hands too.
In the Putin vids ,I saw ,he always has his hands still on the table,why is that?
Tremors?

 

[CSIDreamer]

https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1500918368202891271?t=k2SEmSSt2ImP2ICvgfYTsw&s=19

We’re having air combat over Kyiv now.
Two Russian aircraft have been downed over the city, the military says.

(Reporter for the Kyiv Independent)

 

[AliceInPain]

Gavrilo Princip was the 19 year old son of poor farmers and he changed history by assassinating the Archduke Ferdinand.

I personally think it's probably going to be someone from the military that gets to Putin.

(I posted praying emojis here, but they didn't show.)

 

[CSIDreamer]

@Herat okay wanted to reply on your previous quote post,but the thread is closed and a new one started.My cellphone battery is almost gone,so pls forgive my quick reply
So maybe we shouldn't look at his hands too.
In the Putin vids ,I saw ,he always has his hands still on the table,why is that?
Tremors?

I theorize it's to show he's relaxed. Hands on table, not shaking. Shoulders down. Body language at play.

JMO

 

[otto]

@Herat okay wanted to reply on your previous quote post,but the thread is closed and a new one started.My cellphone battery is almost gone,so pls forgive my quick reply
So maybe we should look at his hands too.
In the Putin vids ,I saw ,he always has his hands still on the table,why is that?
Tremors?

I personally don't think that Putin has any serious health issues. I think he has decided that the world is weak, so this is a good time to take control of Ukraine.

As for hands on the table, isn't that a formal European tradition? I was raised by formal Dutch parents and we had to keep our hands on the table during meals and other times when we sat at the dining room table. No elbows on the table, hands on the table. Isn't it based on the old idea that no one can have a weapon under the table if their hands are on the table?

 

[Herat]

I theorize it's to show he's relaxed. Hands on table, not shaking. Shoulders down. Body language at play.

JMO

Kind of a learned KGB-type Super-Control pose, too. No hand expressions ( clasping, wringing, opening, face touching, etc) that could reveal an unconscious weakness, inflection, or emotion. Lots of body language people really hone in on unconscious hand movements, especially around the face.

Also why we very rarely have ever seen him with glasses on. More subconscious face touching in association with positioning and touching glasses.

He's just always playing a super-psychological surveillance game with others he needs to control.

 

[Herat]

Gavrilo Princip was the 19 year old son of poor farmers and he changed history by assassinating the Archduke Ferdinand.

I personally think it's probably going to be someone from the military that gets to Putin.

Archduke Ferdinand was in an open carriage and I recall had ignored warnings.

Putin is nothing but super-cautious. If he could, I think he'd have undetectable hologram of himself rather than ever appear in public again.

I think that's why he doesn't seem to have a visible heir-apparent. Can't trust anyone not to try to off you.

 

[sunshineray]

Archduke Ferdinand was in an open carriage and I recall had ignored warnings.

Putin is nothing but super-cautious. If he could, I think he'd have undetectable hologram of himself rather than ever appear in public again.

Haha! Oh I don't know sooner or later he'll have to check in with the Bear riders or some other physical activity. Maybe a cook's assistant can slip him something...maybe a stewardess will be a heroine

 

[Arkay]

Haha! Oh I don't know sooner or later he'll have to check in with the Bear riders or some other physical activity. Maybe a cook's assistant can slip him something...maybe a stewardess will be a heroine

It's fun to fantasize about ways to rid the world of Putin.

This is a guy, though, who sits a football field away from his closest advisors. He probably has one of those food-tasters who are willing to die for him if his food is poisoned.

I remember Sadat was killed by his military, but they went against him because he'd signed a peace accord with Israel.

And didn't the US try all sorts of ways to eliminate Castro? The exploding cigar, etc.? Maybe that's just rumors, but maybe true.

Since Putin keeps a force field around him, a Fortress of Solitude, it would be difficult for anyone to assassinate him unless a drone hit him with a guided missile. But as a KGB man to the bone, he's aware of all the ways he could be demolished, and I'm sure he's taken every precaution.

And when old age or illness gets him, he'll likely be succeeded by someone he's brainwashed to follow his dictates.

I would hope that one of his mistresses, or the one he's had now for awhile, would go the "Honey Pot" route and surreptitiously kill him in bed. I don't expect that though, since he's fathered their children (ugh) and made them wealthy beyond dreams.

IMO

 

[worldwatcher]

Kind of a learned KGB-type Super-Control pose, too. No hand expressions ( clasping, wringing, opening, face touching, etc) that could reveal an unconscious weakness, inflection, or emotion. Lots of body language people really hone in on unconscious hand movements, especially around the face.

Also why we very rarely have ever seen him with glasses on. More subconscious face touching in association with positioning and touching glasses.

He's just always playing a super-psychological surveillance game with others he needs to control.

Guess you right,only sunglasses...

Here is a ( KGB- explain) article about him,the way he move/walks:

“According to this manual, KGB operatives were instructed to keep their weapon in their right hand close to their chest and to move forward with one side, usually the left, presumably allowing subjects to draw the gun as quickly as possible when confronted with a foe.”

“We propose that this new gait pattern, which we term ‘gunslinger’s gait,’ may result from a behavioral adaptation, possibly triggered by KGB or other forms of weapons training where trainees are taught to keep their right hand close to the chest while walking, allowing them to quickly draw a gun when faced with a foe,” they concluded’

SBM

Why Does Vladimir Putin Walk Like That?



But anyway,I do think he has health issues,yesterday I did read old articles and it has been a lot of (Russian too) msm speculation for almost a decade,about his appearance and health issues:

Putin’s absent was also noticeable,when the covid pandemic hit Russia:
‘It was unusual, first because he appeared two hours later than the time originally announced. Second, he sat in a strange and awkward pose. Was he trying to exude confidence or deal with a pinched nerve in his back?“

As Russia Battles the Coronavirus Crisis, Why Is Putin so Absent? - The Moscow Times

I digged a little bit into VP & his life, Russian msm urls I can’t post,WS -rules,but he did had times,he missed out on his fav. Play out sports...so where was he ???

@otto Could be a difference of live streaming and altered vids ? Or does he really have health,mental issues,due to a health problem?
I am Dutch myself,but Putin lived in DDR/ Germany and speaks German as well.I don’t recall his still hands as European,tbh.