Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #6

[otto]

Regarding the Ukraine request for other countries to declare Ukraine a no-fly zone, I'm curious why Ukraine cannot do this. Is it because they cannot enforce it against Russia? Why doesn't Ukraine declare their country a no-fly zone and use their fighter jets to shoot rogue aircraft out of the sky?

"As the violence unfolded, the US moved quickly to thwart any further attacks. At 9:45 a.m. (Eastern Time), one hour after the first passenger airline flew into the North Tower of the World Trade Center, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) ordered all civilian aircraft to land. The National Airspace System was officially shut down at 11:06 a.m.

David Collenette, Canada’s transport minister, followed suit, grounding all flights in and out of Canadian airports. Canada’s military took control of the skies, implementing the Emergency Security Control of Air Traffic Plan, something usually reserved for times of war."
​

9/11 and Canada | The Canadian Encyclopedia

 

[GRT]

It is a hard task/choice.
How I want so much to end Putin..but we have seen how far he goes,and cruel ,unpredictable he is !

Hopefully,the stress and frustration or someone will get to him!

Yes, we can surely hope for that!

 

[Sundog]

Zelensky gave a heartfelt speech to Canada today and will speak to the US Congress tomorrow. He is a charismatic leader and it's easy to feel his pain and empathize with his situation.

However, I hope the US continues to reject the idea of participating in a no-fly zone over Ukraine.

We simply cannot risk elevating this war to a international level. The bloodshed would be horrendous.

So far, the White House is standing firm. I pray they continue...

"It is also true that the president has to look at decisions that are made through the prism of what is in our national security interest and global security interest," White House press secretary Jen Psaki said Tuesday.

"He continues to believe that a no-fly zone would be escalatory, could prompt a war with Russia," she continued. "I don’t believe there is a lot of advocates calling for that at this point in time from Capitol Hill, but we certainly understand and recognize that is still a call from President Zelenskyy."
​

White House insists no-fly zone over Ukraine 'could prompt a war with Russia'

I totally agree.

 

[dotr]

Ukraine-Russia war live updates: E.U. leaders visit Kyiv amid crisis (nbcnews.com)
March 15, 2022, 3:46 PM EDT
By NBC News
''Russia's relentless assault increasingly threatened Ukraine's capital as deadly strikes hit a residential area of Kyiv, underscoring a dire humanitarian crisis that has shocked the world and forced nearly 3 million people to flee the country.

Kyiv, under increasing fire, imposed a new 35-hour curfew starting later Tuesday as its mayor warned the city faced a "difficult and dangerous moment."

But even as the fighting raged and the war entered its 21st day, the leaders of three European countries traveled to Ukraine's capital to meet with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy in a bold show of support. ''

5m ago / 3:46 PM EDT
''The European Union targeted Russia with a new set of sanctions on Tuesday as punishment for its invasion of Ukraine, banning investments in the Russian energy sector and transactions with the Kremlin's "military-industrial complex."

The E.U. is also instituting an export ban on luxury goods, such as cars and jewelry, and broadened its list of sanctioned persons and entities to include "more oligarchs and business elites linked to the Kremlin."

''In addition to this fourth wave of sanctions, the E.U. said its bloc joined the World Trade Organization in agreeing to deny Russia's privileges as a "most favored nation," which allows countries to move goods at lower tariff rates.''

 

[CSIDreamer]

Bouncing off of @otto post. Does anyone know offhand how much of this war is being fought in the air? I've seen reports that missiles are being fired from Belarus and Russia. Also, now the reports of warships shelling Odessa. No fly zones aren't going to impact the mentioned. JMO

 

[Arkay]

Putin the action man – in pictures

I remember laughing at these kinds of pictures over the years. Putin doing martial arts, Putin fishing topless, Putin in the cockpit and so on. The most hilarious one that I remember is the time he went diving and emerged with two Ancient Greek amphorae.

These pictures were compiled in 2014, apparently, and there are many more. In the West these are met with general ridicule, but IMO they're problematic.

Putin's ego is all entwined with his image as a macho man. I believe in Russia many take these pictures seriously. They're a sign that their leader is strong and virile and so is their country.

To Putin, strength and winning are everything. I don't see him capitulating in any way. I'm sure he must be mortified that he has to hire terrorist mercenaries to finish the job, but he intends to finish no matter what.

I was of the opinion that NATO and the free democratic world powers should not engage directly. The WWWIII fear is very real. Now, however, after weeks of seeing children, doctors, pregnant women, the elderly and ordinary citizens being blown up in the night, or taken hostage, and journalists being attacked, I can feel that I've changed my mind.

It's easy for me to say since I have no loved ones in the US military. I know that. But Putin's mindset is about strength vs. weakness. The people who know Putin, like Garry Kasparov and Alex Navalny, always say that to defeat Putin you must come at him with greater strength.

Maybe, maybe if we had declared a no-fly zone, no matter if we shot down Russian planes, we could have choked this war at the beginning. So many Ukrainians would still be alive, and the still living would have food, medicine, heat and the other necessities.

Maybe if we had even engaged militarily at the beginning, this would have been stopped in its tracks earlier.

I know this is an unpopular opinion, here and among my family and friends, but IMO Putin counted on the fact that the West is trying to avoid a nuclear catastrophe. He expected to take candy from a baby, found out that the baby slapped his hands away, and quintupled up on fulfilling what he wants. Which IMO will eventually extend beyond Ukraine.

Jmo

 

[GRT]

Regarding the Ukraine request for other countries to declare Ukraine a no-fly zone, I'm curious why Ukraine cannot do this. Is it because they cannot enforce it against Russia? Why doesn't Ukraine declare their country a no-fly zone and use their fighter jets to shoot rogue aircraft out of the sky?

"As the violence unfolded, the US moved quickly to thwart any further attacks. At 9:45 a.m. (Eastern Time), one hour after the first passenger airline flew into the North Tower of the World Trade Center, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) ordered all civilian aircraft to land. The National Airspace System was officially shut down at 11:06 a.m.

David Collenette, Canada’s transport minister, followed suit, grounding all flights in and out of Canadian airports. Canada’s military took control of the skies, implementing the Emergency Security Control of Air Traffic Plan, something usually reserved for times of war."
​

9/11 and Canada | The Canadian Encyclopedia

I just read this morning that Russia's air power is 13 times greater than Ukraine's. Ukraine simply doesn't have the ability to implement its own no-fly zone.

But, right now, Russia is limiting its war-making to Ukraine. If NATO tries to enforce a no-zone, then NATO must patrol and at some point, a US or EU plane is likely to shoot down a Russian plane. When that happens, the war will likely expand, and when it does, it could very well expand through the use of nuclear weapons.

We really can't take that risk--it could be beyond awful.

We have to let Russia and Ukraine work out their problems. It's not like this happened in a vacuum--it's been reaching a boiling point for years now.

I would be in favor of sending negotiating teams to try and work something out that satisfies both parties. Neither will be completely happy but perhaps a compromise can be reached.

 

[Dontknow?]

A few days ago I posted a list of how many fighter jets Ukraine had and it was only about 50 some. Not sure they could monitor a no fly zone with that amount.

 

[GRT]

Bouncing off of @otto post. Does anyone know offhand how much of this war is being fought in the air? I've seen reports that missiles are being fired from Belarus and Russia. Also, now the reports of warships shelling Odessa. No fly zones aren't going to impact the mentioned. JMO

As of yesterday, Forbes said Russia lost 11 planes and 11 helicopters so far. So, they're flying some incursions, but how much is really unknown.
Military Equipment Losses Provide Insight Into Russia-Ukraine War

 

[GRT]

A few days ago I posted a list of how many fighter jets Ukraine had and it was only about 50 some. Not sure they could monitor a no fly zone with that amount.

True. I just don't think it's a possibility for them to consider.

 

[GRT]

Putin the action man – in pictures

I remember laughing at these kinds of pictures over the years. Putin doing martial arts, Putin fishing topless, Putin in the cockpit and so on. The most hilarious one that I remember is the time he went diving and emerged with two Ancient Greek amphorae.

These pictures were compiled in 2014, apparently, and there are many more. In the West these are met with general ridicule, but IMO they're problematic.

Putin's ego is all entwined with his image as a macho man. I believe in Russia many take these pictures seriously. They're a sign that their leader is strong and virile and so is their country.

To Putin, strength and winning are everything. I don't see him capitulating in any way. I'm sure he must be mortified that he has to hire terrorist mercenaries to finish the job, but he intends to finish no matter what.

I was of the opinion that NATO and the free democratic world powers should not engage directly. The WWWIII fear is very real. Now, however, after weeks of seeing children, doctors, pregnant women, the elderly and ordinary citizens being blown up in the night, or taken hostage, and journalists being attacked, I can feel that I've changed my mind.

It's easy for me to say since I have no loved ones in the US military. I know that. But Putin's mindset is about strength vs. weakness. The people who know Putin, like Garry Kasparov and Alex Navalny, always say that to defeat Putin you must come at him with greater strength.

Maybe, maybe if we had declared a no-fly zone, no matter if we shot down Russian planes, we could have choked this war at the beginning. So many Ukrainians would still be alive, and the still living would have food, medicine, heat and the other necessities.

Maybe if we had even engaged militarily at the beginning, this would have been stopped in its tracks earlier.

I know this is an unpopular opinion, here and among my family and friends, but IMO Putin counted on the fact that the West is trying to avoid a nuclear catastrophe. He expected to take candy from a baby, found out that the baby slapped his hands away, and quintupled up on fulfilling what he wants. Which IMO will eventually extend beyond Ukraine.

Jmo

Your opinion is just as valuable as anybody else's because we're all just guessing here.

I just think something's wrong with Putin. He doesn't look very good these days, and what he's doing borders on madness.

It doesn't take much for a madman to lose all control.

We know what he wants in the Ukraine, we've known it for decades--and I think he will (hopefully) back off once he gets it.

But, if he fails, or if NATO squares off against him in what he thinks is a justified war--I wouldn't put it past him to escalate to a nuclear level.

I just don't think we can risk that.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

I was really moved as I was listening to Maria Yovanovich, former Ambassador to Ukraine. She was there before and when Zelensky was elected President. She is such a smart woman. <modsnip>she is so well respected. I hope others here can find a way to listen to her words about Ukraine.

"""A career diplomat, Yovanovitch is familiar with the players and politics of both Russia and Ukraine. She says she used to view Russian President Vladimir Putin as a "bully." Now, she sees him a "war criminal" who is intent on reconstituting the the Soviet Union."""


"""If [Putin] is successful in Ukraine, I think he will continue to move forward, maybe not immediately, because he's bitten off an awful lot with Ukraine. That's what the history shows us: Where he invaded Georgia in 2008 and got away with it. He invaded Ukraine in 2014 and got away with it. And now, 2022, he's invading Ukraine again."""

Former Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch warns Putin will move west if he wins in Ukraine

 

[Dontknow?]

Steve Herman
@W7VOA
14m

"A convoy of 11 trucks carrying 200 tons of aid" from
@ICRC
, the German Red Cross and other partners of the Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement has reached #Ukraine.

 

[Warwick1991]

Regarding the Ukraine request for other countries to declare Ukraine a no-fly zone, I'm curious why Ukraine cannot do this. Is it because they cannot enforce it against Russia? Why doesn't Ukraine declare their country a no-fly zone and use their fighter jets to shoot rogue aircraft out of the sky?

"As the violence unfolded, the US moved quickly to thwart any further attacks. At 9:45 a.m. (Eastern Time), one hour after the first passenger airline flew into the North Tower of the World Trade Center, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) ordered all civilian aircraft to land. The National Airspace System was officially shut down at 11:06 a.m.

David Collenette, Canada’s transport minister, followed suit, grounding all flights in and out of Canadian airports. Canada’s military took control of the skies, implementing the Emergency Security Control of Air Traffic Plan, something usually reserved for times of war."
​

9/11 and Canada | The Canadian Encyclopedia

I think that creating a no-fly zone would require a substantial number of Ukrainian aircraft, along with fuel to keep them aloft 24 hours, maintenance and enough pilots. Alternately, sufficient air defense systems - anti-aircraft missile batteries in quantity - might be used. I think the Ukrainians lack adequate numbers of both.

 

[CSIDreamer]

Your opinion is just as valuable as anybody else's because we're all just guessing here.

I just think something's wrong with Putin. He doesn't look very good these days, and what he's doing borders on madness.

It doesn't take much for a madman to lose all control.

We know what he wants in the Ukraine, we've known it for decades--and I think he will (hopefully) back off once he gets it.

But, if he fails, or if NATO squares off against him in what he thinks is a justified war--I wouldn't put it past him to escalate to a nuclear level.

I just don't think we can risk that.

While I'm not AS worried about nuclear war as I was, I still have concerns. His military obviously sucks. JMO

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Putin the action man – in pictures

I remember laughing at these kinds of pictures over the years. Putin doing martial arts, Putin fishing topless, Putin in the cockpit and so on. The most hilarious one that I remember is the time he went diving and emerged with two Ancient Greek amphorae.

These pictures were compiled in 2014, apparently, and there are many more. In the West these are met with general ridicule, but IMO they're problematic.

Putin's ego is all entwined with his image as a macho man. I believe in Russia many take these pictures seriously. They're a sign that their leader is strong and virile and so is their country.

To Putin, strength and winning are everything. I don't see him capitulating in any way. I'm sure he must be mortified that he has to hire terrorist mercenaries to finish the job, but he intends to finish no matter what.

I was of the opinion that NATO and the free democratic world powers should not engage directly. The WWWIII fear is very real. Now, however, after weeks of seeing children, doctors, pregnant women, the elderly and ordinary citizens being blown up in the night, or taken hostage, and journalists being attacked, I can feel that I've changed my mind.

It's easy for me to say since I have no loved ones in the US military. I know that. But Putin's mindset is about strength vs. weakness. The people who know Putin, like Garry Kasparov and Alex Navalny, always say that to defeat Putin you must come at him with greater strength.

Maybe, maybe if we had declared a no-fly zone, no matter if we shot down Russian planes, we could have choked this war at the beginning. So many Ukrainians would still be alive, and the still living would have food, medicine, heat and the other necessities.

Maybe if we had even engaged militarily at the beginning, this would have been stopped in its tracks earlier.

I know this is an unpopular opinion, here and among my family and friends, but IMO Putin counted on the fact that the West is trying to avoid a nuclear catastrophe. He expected to take candy from a baby, found out that the baby slapped his hands away, and quintupled up on fulfilling what he wants. Which IMO will eventually extend beyond Ukraine.

Jmo

I personally appreciate the different opinions on this issue. It is certainly an elephant in the room. I am still fearful that we should not, but I hope we can continue to dialogue about it without major discomfort. It is a hard issue to substantiate with facts at this time, but the pains of increasing deaths in Ukraine is just sickening.

and by the way.... I am feeling certain that Putin's photographers were using Daniel Craig as the model for the 'Putin Action Figure" photos...

 

[otto]

Wouldn't it be a good first step for Ukraine to declare that there is a no-fly zone in Ukraine, and to then look to next steps of how to enforce it? It seems like that step has been missed, and Ukraine is instead acting as though the country has no authority to make this decision - therefore they want someone else to make it for them.

 

[TGIRecovered]

Putin the action man – in pictures

I remember laughing at these kinds of pictures over the years. Putin doing martial arts, Putin fishing topless, Putin in the cockpit and so on. The most hilarious one that I remember is the time he went diving and emerged with two Ancient Greek amphorae.

These pictures were compiled in 2014, apparently, and there are many more. In the West these are met with general ridicule, but IMO they're problematic.

Putin's ego is all entwined with his image as a macho man. I believe in Russia many take these pictures seriously. They're a sign that their leader is strong and virile and so is their country.

To Putin, strength and winning are everything. I don't see him capitulating in any way. I'm sure he must be mortified that he has to hire terrorist mercenaries to finish the job, but he intends to finish no matter what.

I was of the opinion that NATO and the free democratic world powers should not engage directly. The WWWIII fear is very real. Now, however, after weeks of seeing children, doctors, pregnant women, the elderly and ordinary citizens being blown up in the night, or taken hostage, and journalists being attacked, I can feel that I've changed my mind.

It's easy for me to say since I have no loved ones in the US military. I know that. But Putin's mindset is about strength vs. weakness. The people who know Putin, like Garry Kasparov and Alex Navalny, always say that to defeat Putin you must come at him with greater strength.

Maybe, maybe if we had declared a no-fly zone, no matter if we shot down Russian planes, we could have choked this war at the beginning. So many Ukrainians would still be alive, and the still living would have food, medicine, heat and the other necessities.

Maybe if we had even engaged militarily at the beginning, this would have been stopped in its tracks earlier.

I know this is an unpopular opinion, here and among my family and friends, but IMO Putin counted on the fact that the West is trying to avoid a nuclear catastrophe. He expected to take candy from a baby, found out that the baby slapped his hands away, and quintupled up on fulfilling what he wants. Which IMO will eventually extend beyond Ukraine.

Jmo

I think that your opinion may seem to be unpopular here because people who agree with you avoid posting. Rest assured, you are not alone!

Putin is a power-hungry bully. He sees that the U.S. ( the leadership, not the military or the people) cowers when he says "Boo!". Appeasing him only feeds the beast. Puitn will not be satisified with Ukraine. No one provoked him to attack the civillians of Ukraine. He wants to be the new Hitler.
MOO

 

[Arkay]

"""If [Putin] is successful in Ukraine, I think he will continue to move forward, maybe not immediately, because he's bitten off an awful lot with Ukraine. That's what the history shows us: Where he invaded Georgia in 2008 and got away with it. He invaded Ukraine in 2014 and got away with it. And now, 2022, he's invading Ukraine again."""

I think that creating a no-fly zone would require a substantial number of Ukrainian aircraft, along with fuel to keep them aloft 24 hours, maintenance and enough pilots. Alternately, sufficient air defense systems - anti-aircraft missile batteries in quantity - might be used. I think the Ukrainians lack adequate numbers of both.

I agree with both of these comments.

I have trust in the people who have tangled with Putin before, dissidents like Kasparov and Navalny, and diplomatically like this former ambassador. They have insight into Putin that we do not have.

Zelenskyy of course also knows Putin, his mindset and the inculcated mindsets of many Russians. We can see his character and the character of most Ukrainians. They are fighting with everything they have.

The problem is they have very little that can offset or withstand Russia’s attacks. Zelenskyy would not be pleading daily for a no-fly zone or for airplanes if Ukraine could do it alone. Look at these Ukrainians—they are battling back with their bare hands. They have the courage, they have the will, they just don’t have the equipment.

I say this as someone who grew up knowing that my grandparents had to escape the Russian empire, because as Jews they were terrorized there. My great-grandfather who was born in Odessa was hung from a tree. His son, my grandfather, took a ship to America. My grandmother did the same, fleeing what is now Belarus, and they met here.

I also know that Ukrainians personally were involved in the Nazi slaughter at Babi Yar, and turned on their Jewish friends and neighbors.

But this generation are not those people. After all, they elected a Jewish actor as president, and look what he turned out to be…so valiant and wise.

jmo

 

[sds71]

Ukraine said Tuesday that Russia seemed to soften its stand in the talks aimed at halting the fighting, even as Moscow’s forces stepped up their bombardment of Kyiv, smashing apartments, a subway station and other civilian sites.

Elsewhere around the country, civilians in at least 2,000 cars fled Mariupol along a humanitarian corridor in what was believed to be the biggest evacuation yet from the desperately besieged seaport, where bodies have had to be buried in mass graves.

Also, the leaders of three European Union countries — including Poland, a NATO member on Ukraine’s doorstep — visited the embattled capital in a bold show of support amid the danger.

The talks between Russian and Ukrainian representatives, with the latest round held Tuesday via video, have become “more constructive,” and Russia has stopped airing its demands for Ukraine to surrender, said Ukrainian presidential aide Ihor Zhovkva.

Ukraine: Tone improves in Russia talks even as Kyiv is hit | AP News