GUILTY SC - Nine killed in Emanuel AME Church shooting, Charleston, 2015; Dylann Roof GUILTY #3

  • #101
TY!

tid bits
ing in a trailer park,
from black to Jewish and wore apartheid-era South African flags.


some pics in that they got

Dylann-Roof-6.jpg




In a rare occurrence, Roof is pictured here actually smiling a bit as he stands and strong conservative beliefs.

http://murderpedia.org/last-updates.htm

he spent a LOT of his time at plantations, which I find somewhat confusing. I would think in this day and age visiting one would be more in the vein of like regret what we did.

People are not visiting german hallocassut places in celebration of Hitlers atrocities.

47827430.cached.jpg


No
not
no
abuse20n-2-web.jpg


notice

RBBM. That would be our reaction but not his apparently. When I saw the photos of him in the slave cabin, knowing what he'd done I was seriously creeped out.

I don't know if that was at Boone Hall or not, but it looked similar. I remember stepping into one of their cabins and I had a visceral reaction. Yes, I stood there crying my eyes out.
 
  • #102
I continue having a hard time understanding this. He said he did it. The world knows what he did that night.

Why does the system have to go through all this "proving" with evidence?

It seems to me the question should only be , do 12 citizens think what he acknowledged doing deserve life in prison or DP.

What's the purpose of "pleading" if the same exhausting and expensive show goes on? Hey plead not guilty then and let the show proceed.

I think this is difficult for me because I cannot remember someone who plead guilty- prior to this dog and pony show, I suppose I thought if someone plead guilty we kinda move right along!

He is clearly not psychotic, not delusional, where there would be some "question" about his declaration of guilt.

It makes just no sense to me, why are they trying to prove bullets - he said I shot them with my 45. What else is needed?

He (relativily) outlined his belief systems, never claiming that a meteorite from Pluto implanted these beliefs into his right eye!!

It's like if he recanted in 10 years even then it seems like one could back a play the tape as refresher.

There seems to be absolutely no difference between innocent or guilty? If there is one , what is it?

If anyone knows why system is this doing this pls enlighten me - it denies common sense

jmo



(Am I wrong to assume that you have not grown up in the US and have not attended school here?)

BBM: Because this is America and The US Constitution says we must .

(please forgive me if you do know all this and just don't want to accept it)

Everyone who attends school in the US, according to the curriculum, must take American History classes, learns about The Constitution, and what it stands for.
Even if a person confesses to the crime, he/she must go thru the rigmarole of the courts in some capacity .

If a defendant pleads "not guilty", they must be tried and convicted before they can be sentenced. The burden of showing guilt lies with the state; you are presumed innocent unless the state can prove your guilt beyond the shadow of a doubt- even if there is a video/witnesses of/to the crime A defendant need not actually believe that she is "not guilty" in order to enter this plea.

By pleading "not guilty" they are saying; "Guilt implies wrong-doing. I feel I have done no wrong. I may have violated some specific laws, but I am guilty of doing no wrong. I therefore plead not guilty." -this places the burden of proof on the state to prove guilt and bring the evidence to prove it; this insures that everyone gets a fair trial.
Roof would have pleaded "guilty" if the state would sentence him to LWOP (life without the possibility of parole), but the prosecutor (who represents The State) would not accept that plea from him.

---------------------------------------------

explanation-smiley.gif


Some amendments to The Constitution insure that a person will get a fair trial:

Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution
Amendment XIV


"Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws..."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv
--

Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution

Amendment V
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation..."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fifth_amendment
---

Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution

Amendment VI
"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense..."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/sixth_amendment
------

Here is some more info, if you are interested:

Proof, Burden of Proof, and Presumptions

"Proof, Burden of Proof, and Presumptions.—In 1970, the Court held in In re Winship that the due process clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments "[protect] the accused against conviction except upon proof beyond a reasonable doubt of every fact necessary to constitute the crime with which he is charged."1050 "The reasonable doubt standard plays a vital role in the American scheme of criminal procedure. It is a prime instrument for reducing the risk of convictions resting on factual error. The standard provides concrete substance for the presumption of innocence—that bedrock 'axiomatic and elementary' principle whose 'enforcement lies at the foundation of the administration of our criminal law."'1051 In many past cases, this standard was assumed to be the required one,1052 but because it was so widely accepted only recently has the Court had the opportunity to pronounce it guaranteed by due process.1053 The presumption of innocence is valuable in assuring defendants a fair trial,1054 and it operates to ensure that the jury considers the case solely on the evidence.1055..."

http://law.justia.com/constitution/us/amendment-14/59-burden-of-proof-and-presumptions.html
---

Due Process of Law

"A fundamental, constitutional guarantee that all legal proceedings will be fair and that one will be given notice of the proceedings and an opportunity to be heard before the government acts to take away one's life, liberty, or property. Also, a constitutional guarantee that a law shall not be unreasonable, Arbitrary, or capricious.

The constitutional guarantee of due process of law, found in the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution, prohibits all levels of government from arbitrarily or unfairly depriving individuals of their basic constitutional rights to life, liberty, and property. The due process clause of the Fifth Amendment, ratified in 1791, asserts that no person shall "be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." This amendment restricts the powers of the federal government and applies only to actions by it. The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, ratified in 1868, declares,"[N]or shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" ...

Procedural Due Process

The phrase "procedural due process" refers to the aspects of the Due Process Clause that apply to the procedure of arresting and trying persons who have been accused of crimes and to any other government action that deprives an individual of life, liberty, or property. Procedural due process limits the exercise of power by the state and federal governments by requiring that they follow certain procedures in criminal and civil matters. In cases where an individual has claimed a violation of due process rights, courts must determine whether a citizen is being deprived of "life, liberty, or property," and what procedural protections are "due" to that individual.

The Bill of Rights contains provisions that are central to procedural due process. These protections give a person a number of rights and freedoms in criminal proceedings, including freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures; freedom from Double Jeopardy, or being tried more than once for the same crime; freedom from Self-Incrimination, or testifying against oneself; the right to a speedy and public trial by an impartial jury; the right to be told of the crime being charged; the right to cross-examine witnesses; the right to be represented by an attorney; freedom from Cruel and Unusual Punishment; and the right to demand that the state prove any charges Beyond a Reasonable Doubt..."

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/due+process+of+law
---

The Burden of Proof in Criminal Trials

" The prosecution must not only produce evidence on every element of the crime, it must convince the trier of fact “beyond a reasonable doubt.”.."

http://criminal.lawyers.com/criminal-law-basics/criminal-trials-who-has-the-burden-of-proof.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And last:

If a suspect confesses, why do they plead ‘not guilty?’

"...First thing to understand, said Bremerton defense attorney Tom Weaver, is the difference between “innocent” and “not guilty.”

Not guilty can mean innocent – as people are presumed innocent until found guilty – but in essence, pleading not guilty sets into motion the process where attorneys can review the case. Otherwise, once a plea is accepted, the next step is sentencing..."

http://pugetsoundblogs.com/kitsap-c...spect-confesses-why-do-they-plead-not-guilty/
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OK?....ok :facepalm:

Class has ended.
carry-on-smiley.gif
 
  • #103
For some reason, like before, when he stated his plan to do this, it got softened by the judge.

I can not imagine him having the belief in himself that he could " do this" without appearing dumb.

I kinda get the sense (common in LD kids) self-esteem stuff and notions about being "stupid" will ultimately lead to it not happening.

At some level it feels as if those involved know he has some limitations and are just letting it ride along until it gets to the point where it happens (represent himself) or gets "basically stopped again.


If it was a convicted lawyer that might make some sense, but an individual who has clearly stopped developing years ago, just seems like it won't really happen.

If it does I would think the judge will be very hard on him, not wanting to waste his time with a child representing himself

moo

BBM But you are just assuming that Roof has a LD because of your interpretation of him, IMO. To me, he has some emotional ...deficiency, if I may call it that ( because I don't know what else to call it). Stunted, as you say "stopped developing years ago", sounds feasible to me. But he is intelligent, as we have heard from others that know him- even the judge has called him intelligent, but intelligence really has nothing to do with emotional maturity, IMO.

The judge has no recourse in stopping Roof from representing himself because of our laws. He has no mental impairment, no disability, that stands up to the law.
 
  • #104
]Does anyone know, for sure, if adults in his life were racist??
[/B]
We have to be honest, his peers might have been comes with the territory sometimes

BBM "for sure"- I don't know, but according to the articles I posted previously,(see my post #33), his family was not racist. I don't remember which article stated that Roof's father had parties where some of his workers, who were of a different race, were invited.

He found the information on racism on-line thru various website.

BTW- I enjoy all your posts- makes me think. :)
 
  • #105
[/B]

That's all well and good, but is there any evidence that such detailed analysis was done? Like I said, the 'defense' lawyer didn't bother asking.

BBM The evidence of the bullets may be in the report that the witness wrote, IMO. We just have the tweets from the reporters and they do not tweet everything that was said in the courtroom- only what they think is important, maybe, IMO.
 
  • #106
BBM The evidence of the bullets may be in the report that the witness wrote, IMO. We just have the tweets from the reporters and they do not tweet everything that was said in the courtroom- only what they think is important, maybe, IMO.

Have you (or anyone) heard if the state trial will be broadcast? The rules in SC seem to leave it up to the judge.
 
  • #107
Have you (or anyone) heard if the state trial will be broadcast? The rules in SC seem to leave it up to the judge.

Haven't found any info about the state trial being broadcast or not.
 
  • #108
Why Roof faces execution in both federal and South Carolina courts: :judge:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dylann Roof is the first person in modern US history to face both a federal and state death penalty

"...The jury in this trial will decide whether Roof is guilty of hate crimes, which are a federal offense. Attorney general Loretta Lynch said in May that the government would seek the death penalty because “the nature of the alleged crime and the resulting harm compelled this decision.” Lynch decided to pursue the death penalty even though Roof could also face a death sentence in his state trial, where he is charged with multiple counts of murder, scheduled to start in January 2017. This wasn’t an obvious choice, and it is a controversial one.

“It’s unprecedented that the federal government and a state would seek the death penalty against a single individual at the same time,” said Robert Dunham, Executive Director of the Death Penalty Information Center (DPIC). “That has never happened before.”

...the government’s basis for action is the Hate Crimes Prevention Act. South Carolina does not have a hate crimes statute, so the government decided to pursue the case, because it involved “racially motivated violence.”...

...when Roof’s attorneys, some of the top capital punishment defenders in the country, said he would plead guilty in exchange for a life sentence, the federal prosecutors rejected the offer..."

http://qz.com/859808/why-dylann-roof-faces-execution-in-both-federal-and-south-carolina-courts/
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DYLANN ROOF'S 2 DEATH PENALTY TRIALS AN ANOMALY (with clip)

"...His state trial on murder charges is expected to start about two weeks after that, and local prosecutors also want him executed.

The dual death sentence-eligible trials are unprecedented in the modern era of the U.S. death penalty, legal experts said on Friday, and raise questions about judicial fairness, the emotional toll on survivors and victims' families and potential legal problems if the two juries reach different decisions...

Roof is facing different charges in the two systems for the killings in Charleston. South Carolina is prosecuting him for murder. The U.S. government prosecuted him on 33 charges that included hate crimes resulting in death...."

http://www.newsweek.com/dylann-roof...olina-church-attack-death-penalty-hate-533187
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  • #109
Hate crime laws in the United States

"Hate crime laws in the United States protect against hate crimes (also known as bias crimes) motivated by enmity or animus against a protected class. Although state laws vary, current statutes permit federal prosecution of hate crimes committed on the basis of a person's protected characteristics of race, religion, ethnicity, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, political views and disability. The U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ)/FBI, as well as campus security authorities, are required to collect and publish hate crime statistics...

Civil Rights Act of 1968...

Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act (1994)...

Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act (2009)...

State laws

45 states and the District of Columbia have statutes criminalizing various types of bias-motivated violence or intimidation (the exceptions are Arkansas, Georgia, whose hate crime statute was struck down by the Georgia Supreme Court in 2004,[3] Indiana, South Carolina, and Wyoming). Each of these statutes covers bias on the basis of race, religion, and ethnicity; 32 cover disability; 31 of them cover sexual orientation; 28 cover gender; 17 cover transgender/gender-identity; 13 cover age; 5 cover political affiliation.[4] and 3 along with Washington, D.C. cover homelessness.[5]

31 states and the District of Columbia have statutes creating a civil cause of action, in addition to the criminal penalty, for similar acts.[4]

27 states and the District of Columbia have statutes requiring the state to collect hate crime statistics; 16 of these cover sexual orientation.[4]

3 states and the District of Columbia cover homelessness..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime_laws_in_the_United_States
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  • #110
Strain on Forgiveness After Church Massacre, Other Killings

"The victims' families spoke words of forgiveness in Charleston after nine black people were massacred in a historic church by Dylann Roof, a white man who harbored dreams of launching a race war. The relatives were held up as examples of grace amid horror, and the city stayed calm.

Now, Roof has been convicted in a federal trial, bringing relief tempered by uncertainty over whether he will get the death penalty for his crimes — and whether wanting to see Roof pay with his life is at odds with the call to forgive...

Middleton said the families' impulse to forgive may have been more knee-jerk than genuine emotion resulting from a process of contemplation.

"I don't think they had time to absorb the fact that their loved ones were heinously murdered," Middleton said. "The country automatically expected us to be forgiving, causing the national perception of the wonderful people of Charleston."...

"It would be a mistake to think that forgiveness ... is the same thing as not wanting justice," Lyle said. "I think blacks in South Carolina do want to see justice being served. It's possible to show forgiveness without feeling someone shouldn't be held accountable.".."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/church-massacre-killings-strain-forgiveness-44256585
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  • #111
BBM But you are just assuming that Roof has a LD because of your interpretation of him, IMO. To me, he has some emotional ...deficiency, if I may call it that ( because I don't know what else to call it). Stunted, as you say "stopped developing years ago", sounds feasible to me. But he is intelligent, as we have heard from others that know him- even the judge has called him intelligent, but intelligence really has nothing to do with emotional maturity, IMO.

The judge has no recourse in stopping Roof from representing himself because of our laws. He has no mental impairment, no disability, that stands up to the law.

Just mo the term "intelligence" has so many different meanings! I guess its kinda like "smart" vs "bright".

Imo, smart entails, as he got older a "knowledge base" on racial issues, which affords him the opportunity to verbalize in a way that appears smart.

On this subject. I think "bright" encompasses all domains.

I think he has educated himself on AA history, but in most other domains he is cognitively disabled.

IMO thinking determines emotions , his affect and responses in the confession were so imo disjointed, off, childlike but authentic

I def believe the note to the judge was "dictated" by his attorneys!

just mo, in most areas he is .functioning around a 6 -7 year old.
 
  • #112
(Am I wrong to assume that you have not grown up in the US and have not attended school here?)

BBM: Because this is America and The US Constitution says we must .

(please forgive me if you do know all this and just don't want to accept it)

Everyone who attends school in the US, according to the curriculum, must take American History classes, learns about The Constitution, and what it stands for.
Even if a person confesses to the crime, he/she must go thru the rigmarole of the courts in some capacity .

If a defendant pleads "not guilty", they must be tried and convicted before they can be sentenced. The burden of showing guilt lies with the state; you are presumed innocent unless the state can prove your guilt beyond the shadow of a doubt- even if there is a video/witnesses of/to the crime A defendant need not actually believe that she is "not guilty" in order to enter this plea.

By pleading "not guilty" they are saying; "Guilt implies wrong-doing. I feel I have done no wrong. I may have violated some specific laws, but I am guilty of doing no wrong. I therefore plead not guilty." -this places the burden of proof on the state to prove guilt and bring the evidence to prove it; this insures that everyone gets a fair trial.
Roof would have pleaded "guilty" if the state would sentence him to LWOP (life without the possibility of parole), but the prosecutor (who represents The State) would not accept that plea from him.

---------------------------------------------

explanation-smiley.gif


Some amendments to The Constitution insure that a person will get a fair trial:

Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution
Amendment XIV


"Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws..."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv
--

Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution

Amendment V
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation..."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fifth_amendment
---

Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution

Amendment VI
"In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense..."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/sixth_amendment
------

Here is some more info, if you are interested:

Proof, Burden of Proof, and Presumptions

"Proof, Burden of Proof, and Presumptions.—In 1970, the Court held in In re Winship that the due process clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments "[protect] the accused against conviction except upon proof beyond a reasonable doubt of every fact necessary to constitute the crime with which he is charged."1050 "The reasonable doubt standard plays a vital role in the American scheme of criminal procedure. It is a prime instrument for reducing the risk of convictions resting on factual error. The standard provides concrete substance for the presumption of innocence—that bedrock 'axiomatic and elementary' principle whose 'enforcement lies at the foundation of the administration of our criminal law."'1051 In many past cases, this standard was assumed to be the required one,1052 but because it was so widely accepted only recently has the Court had the opportunity to pronounce it guaranteed by due process.1053 The presumption of innocence is valuable in assuring defendants a fair trial,1054 and it operates to ensure that the jury considers the case solely on the evidence.1055..."

http://law.justia.com/constitution/us/amendment-14/59-burden-of-proof-and-presumptions.html
---

Due Process of Law

"A fundamental, constitutional guarantee that all legal proceedings will be fair and that one will be given notice of the proceedings and an opportunity to be heard before the government acts to take away one's life, liberty, or property. Also, a constitutional guarantee that a law shall not be unreasonable, Arbitrary, or capricious.

The constitutional guarantee of due process of law, found in the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution, prohibits all levels of government from arbitrarily or unfairly depriving individuals of their basic constitutional rights to life, liberty, and property. The due process clause of the Fifth Amendment, ratified in 1791, asserts that no person shall "be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." This amendment restricts the powers of the federal government and applies only to actions by it. The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, ratified in 1868, declares,"[N]or shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" ...

Procedural Due Process

The phrase "procedural due process" refers to the aspects of the Due Process Clause that apply to the procedure of arresting and trying persons who have been accused of crimes and to any other government action that deprives an individual of life, liberty, or property. Procedural due process limits the exercise of power by the state and federal governments by requiring that they follow certain procedures in criminal and civil matters. In cases where an individual has claimed a violation of due process rights, courts must determine whether a citizen is being deprived of "life, liberty, or property," and what procedural protections are "due" to that individual.

The Bill of Rights contains provisions that are central to procedural due process. These protections give a person a number of rights and freedoms in criminal proceedings, including freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures; freedom from Double Jeopardy, or being tried more than once for the same crime; freedom from Self-Incrimination, or testifying against oneself; the right to a speedy and public trial by an impartial jury; the right to be told of the crime being charged; the right to cross-examine witnesses; the right to be represented by an attorney; freedom from Cruel and Unusual Punishment; and the right to demand that the state prove any charges Beyond a Reasonable Doubt..."

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/due+process+of+law
---

The Burden of Proof in Criminal Trials

" The prosecution must not only produce evidence on every element of the crime, it must convince the trier of fact “beyond a reasonable doubt.”.."

http://criminal.lawyers.com/criminal-law-basics/criminal-trials-who-has-the-burden-of-proof.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And last:

If a suspect confesses, why do they plead ‘not guilty?’

"...First thing to understand, said Bremerton defense attorney Tom Weaver, is the difference between “innocent” and “not guilty.”

Not guilty can mean innocent – as people are presumed innocent until found guilty – but in essence, pleading not guilty sets into motion the process where attorneys can review the case. Otherwise, once a plea is accepted, the next step is sentencing..."

http://pugetsoundblogs.com/kitsap-c...spect-confesses-why-do-they-plead-not-guilty/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK?....ok :facepalm:

Class has ended.
carry-on-smiley.gif

once a plea is accepted, the next step is sentencing..."

this is where I am lost we accept not guilty why not guilty?

It seems his pleading guilty has not resulted in this case being any different than any other !!

It was my bullets from my 45 then we spend 4 days with ballistic experts etc etc


I shot, on video walking out of church with the gun clearly in hand, two days with fingerprints on the gun??

It seems to me that most of the effort should be on determining if society feels he should get the death penalty (which in and of itself is a joke - in the 50's you got the death penalty you were dead!)

It's kinda like our society really makes a distinction between DP or life in prison, while the reality is 36 a year (1976-present) have been killed, while about 3200 were "sentenced"- roughly from a quick review.

So if your playing the lottery .... you know where I am going!!

But it should be imo that way considering the daily exonerations as it relates to new technology clearly indicating that mistakes have been made.

It seems like it still has the "feel" of decades ago interesting

1,289 executions in the 1940s,

715 in the 1950s

Throw in his age, even if he "gets" it - in all likelihood, it will be life in prison in reality just moo

And I think most of us know there is a direct correlation between media coverage and being given the DP.

Does anyone really believe - he won't get the DP? Of
course he will, imo, it gives society a sense of ending the book.

Will he be executed? Probably not,
imo.

At some level it's all pretty meaningless

Ramirez sentenced to death died 33 years afterward

This dude killed 13 got life (min media)

Lorenzo Gilyard killed 13 got life (media role again)

I think it is more about coverage than fatalities.

jmo

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/the-u-s-and-the-death-penalty.html



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ial_killers_with_fewer_than_15_proven_victims
 
  • #113
  • #114
once a plea is accepted, the next step is sentencing..."

this is where I am lost we accept not guilty why not guilty?

It seems his pleading guilty has not resulted in this case being any different than any other !!

It was my bullets from my 45 then we spend 4 days with ballistic experts etc etc


I shot, on video walking out of church with the gun clearly in hand, two days with fingerprints on the gun??

It seems to me that most of the effort should be on determining if society feels he should get the death penalty (which in and of itself is a joke - in the 50's you got the death penalty you were dead!)

It's kinda like our society really makes a distinction between DP or life in prison, while the reality is 36 a year (1976-present) have been killed, while about 3200 were "sentenced"- roughly from a quick review.

So if your playing the lottery .... you know where I am going!!

But it should be imo that way considering the daily exonerations as it relates to new technology clearly indicating that mistakes have been made.

It seems like it still has the "feel" of decades ago interesting

1,289 executions in the 1940s,

715 in the 1950s

Throw in his age, even if he "gets" it - in all likelihood, it will be life in prison in reality just moo

And I think most of us know there is a direct correlation between media coverage and being given the DP.

Does anyone really believe - he won't get the DP? Of
course he will, imo, it gives society a sense of ending the book.

Will he be executed? Probably not,
imo.

At some level it's all pretty meaningless

Ramirez sentenced to death died 33 years afterward

This dude killed 13 got life (min media)

Lorenzo Gilyard killed 13 got life (media role again)

I think it is more about coverage than fatalities.

jmo

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/the-u-s-and-the-death-penalty.html



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ial_killers_with_fewer_than_15_proven_victims



BBM The State would accept a plea of guilty if they thought the crime warranted it and then they would accept "guilty". Roof originally wanted to plead guilty for LWOP, but the State did not accept that plea. The state thought his crime warranted the death penalty, so Roof pleaded Not guilty so a jury decides the verdict after the State presents all the evidence to them.

Your statement: "At some level it's all pretty meaningless" about the DP:

Meaningless?- because it takes a very long time to execute someone because of the appeals process- that a murderer might even die a natural death while waiting to be executed? It takes time because there are multiple steps in the appeals process in death penalty cases. And there are multiple steps because it's the ultimate punishment and there's no room for error. Taking someone's life, whoever they are and whatever they have done, shouldn't be an "easy" thing, IMO.

There are differences in how inmates on death row live; death row inmates live in solitary confinement, have more restrictions. Just think of an inmate on death row- every day must be hell on earth, IMO, waiting for your appeals to end, and then your execution.

PRISON CONDITIONS FOR DEATH ROW AND LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE INMATES

https://www.cga.ct.gov/2011/rpt/2011-R-0178.htm
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Here is an article that I have saved since the JA trial about solitary confinement:

Voices from Solitary: A Sentence Worse Than Death

"The following essay is by William Blake, who has been held in solitary confinement for nearly 26 years. When he wrote this essay he was in administrative segregation at Elmira Correctional Facility, a maximum security facility located in south central New York State. In 1987, Blake, then 23 and in county court on a drug charge, murdered one deputy and wounded another in a failed escape attempt. He was sentenced to 77 years to life..."

http://solitarywatch.com/2013/03/11/voices-from-solitary-a-sentence-worse-than-death/
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There are many articles written by inmates on death row (it's no picnic and it shouldn't be, IMO).

https://www.google.com/search?q=tak...chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=living+on+death+row&start=0
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Why so many death row inmates in America will die of old age

"...The appeals process can drag on for decades. It is endlessly painstaking because no one wants to see an innocent prisoner executed. Even the most enthusiastic advocates of capital punishment know that miscarriages of justice undermine their cause. For prisoners who are actually put to death, the average time that elapses between sentence and execution has risen from six years in the mid-1980s to 16.5 years now. And even that startling figure makes the process sound quicker than it is, because most condemned prisoners will never be put to death. It's simple maths..."

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/02/economist-explains-0
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The death penalty may go the way of the dinosaur in this century, IMO, because some states are outlawing it; there is also a problem with getting the drugs that are needed for an execution, and there is more pressure to end the DP from people who are opposed to it.

I subscribe to a website about the death penalty (if you are interested: http://deathpenaltynews.blogspot.com/

Everyday they send me things to read with new developments. It is of great interest to me because of my interest in the trials on WS and the verdicts following. I am not a proponent of the DP, but I do understand why people want murderers to receive the DP, and I respect what they want; they want and need justice for their loved one's deaths and they see the DP as justice, of which I cannot fault them in any way (even tho' I cannot justify the death of any person for any reason, but that's just my thought). The verdict of the DP makes them feel that some sort of justice has been served for their loved ones, IMO. It's a slow process.

I have never been the victim of a violent crime, and I’ve had the good fortune that no one in my family has been touched by violent crime either. I’d like to believe that if such a thing were to come to pass, I would resist the urge to take another person’s life. I have the luxury of opposing the DP, absolutely, on moral grounds.

For me, it would always be wrong to execute someone, so I would not be able to sentence anyone to the DP, but I can imagine a set of circumstances where someone might feel justified in executing someone. I can also imagine a set of circumstances where I might find it necessary, or justifiable, to kill another human being, but I will never say those circumstances would make it right for me. If I commit that act, if I cause that death, I will have wronged, I will have sinned, and I would have to come to terms with that- which, partly, means not rationalizing it into something right, IMO.

Anyone can agree or disagree with what I have written- that's their choice. I don't debate it, and I accept their choice.
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You don't have to take my word for my statement on the eventual death of the DP, and as I don't expect anyone to agree with my statements, here are some articles:

Lethal Injection Drug Shortage

"Texas has 317 inmates on death row, but only enough of a key lethal injection drug to execute two of them. Ohio has just one dose of the drug left.

A nationwide shortage of sodium thiopental, an anesthetic that is part of the three-drug cocktail used in lethal injections, has thrown capital punishment in the United States into disarray, delaying executions and forcing the change of execution protocols in several states...

The shortage of sodium thiopental has forced the 35 states using lethal injection to scramble for any remaining stock and to explore alternatives.

“Many states will have to change their method of execution, which means regulatory changes that have to be approved and lengthy court challenges,” says Richard Dieter, executive director of the Death Penalty Information Center. “In many states, this could take months, if not years, delaying executions.”

Some states—including California, Arizona and Nebraska—were able to obtain the drug from suppliers in England and India. The British government has since banned such shipments. A class-action lawsuit against the Food and Drug Administration’s decision to allow the importation of the drug into the country without adequate inspection or quality checks is pending. Death penalty opponents have raised questions about the quality of the drugs, arguing that if the drugs were expired or otherwise failed to work effectively, inmates could suffer significant pain, violating the ban on cruel and unusual punishment. .."

http://www.csg.org/pubs/capitolideas/enews/issue65_4.aspx
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THE DEATH OF THE DEATH PENALTY
Why the era of capital punishment is ending

"...Despite extraordinary efforts by the courts and enormous expense to taxpayers, the modern death penalty remains slow, costly and uncertain. For the overwhelming majority of condemned prisoners, the final step—that last short march with the strap-down team—will never be taken. The relative few who are killed continue to be selected by a mostly random cull. Tsarnaev aside, the tide is turning on capital punishment in the U.S., as previously supportive judges, lawmakers and politicians come out against it.
Change is not coming quickly or easily. Americans have stuck with grim determination to the idea of the ultimate penalty even as other Western democracies have turned against it. On this issue, our peer group is not Britain and France; it’s Iran and China. Most U.S. states authorize the death penalty, although few of them actually use it. We value tolerance and *diversity—but certain outrages we will not put up with. Maybe it’s the teenage terrorist who plants a bomb near an 8-year-old boy. Maybe it’s a failed neuroscientist who turns a Colorado movie theater into an abattoir. We like to think we know them when we see them. Half a century of inconclusive legal wrangling over the process for choosing the worst of the worst says otherwise...

Thirty-two states allow capital punishment for the most heinous crimes. And yet in most of the country, the penalty is now hollow. Since the start of 2014, all but two of the nation’s 49 executions have been carried out by just five states: Texas, Missouri, Florida, Oklahoma and Georgia.

For the first time in the nearly 30 years that I have been studying and writing about the death penalty, the end of this troubled system is creeping into view.
And I’ll give you five reasons why...

...This leaves only the question of justice, which is a visceral and compelling force. It’s the force that has kept the death penalty going as long as it has. Capital punishment is an expression of the principle that certain extreme boundaries cannot be crossed—that some crimes are so terrible that death is the only punishment sufficient to balance the scales. It shows how seriously we take our laws and the moral traditions underlying them..."

http://time.com/deathpenalty/
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The slow death of the death penalty
America is falling out of love with the needle

"...Several factors have driven death sentences and executions down. The simplest may be that America’s homicide rate has declined sharply—from 10.2 per 100,000 people in 1980 to 4.7 in 2012...

Another shift is that most juries can now impose sentences of life without the possibility of parole. In 1972, when the Supreme Court suspended the death penalty (it was reinstated four years later), only seven states allowed such sentences. Now every state bar Alaska gives juries the option of making sure that a murderer will never be released (perhaps to kill again) without actually killing him.

That makes them warier of the needle...

Most Americans still support capital punishment. But their majority has dwindled from 80% in 1994 to 60% in 2013, according to Gallup...

Another reason why some voters are falling out of love with the death penalty is that it now costs much more to execute a killer than to lock him up forever...

An execution itself is not expensive, but the years of appeals that precede it are. Defendants facing death tend to have more, better and costlier lawyers. Death-row inmates are more expensive to incarcerate, too: they usually have their own cells, with meals brought to them and multiple guards present for every visit. “It’s because of this myth that these people will be executed in a couple of months,” explains Richard Dieter of the Death Penalty Information Centre.

All states that execute people do so principally by lethal injection. Until 2010 most used three drugs: sodium thiopental to induce unconsciousness, pancuronium bromide to stop breathing and potassium chloride to stop the heart. In January 2011, however, the sole American producer of sodium thiopental ceased production, fearing a regulatory backlash in Europe if its drug was used to kill people. European producers have been reluctant to sell to American states for the same reason..."

http://www.economist.com/news/unite...ling-out-love-needle-slow-death-death-penalty
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It only took 6 years to execution for Timothy McVeigh, but he stopped all his appeals:

Timothy McVeigh Put to Death for Oklahoma City Bombings

"...Two hundred and thirty-two survivors and relatives of McVeigh's victims watched the execution on closed-circuit television in Oklahoma City. It was the first federal execution since 1963...

Several of those who witnessed the execution, either in person or on television, complained that death by injection was too easy a way out for McVeigh.

He didn't suffer at all. The man just went to sleep, or as I said, the monster did," said bombing survivor Sue Ashford, who watched in person. "I think they should have done the same thing to him as he did in Oklahoma."...

They said although he'd expressed regret that people had to die, he still believed his action was right and felt he had to kill people to get the government's attention...
Before the execution, Nigh conveyed McVeigh's regrets about the people he killed, but stopped short of offering an apology, saying his client has "struggled with that mightily."

He has "tried to express as best he can that he is sorry for the deaths that occurred," Nigh said. "That is not to say that he doesn't believe that he was right."..

McVeigh's original execution date was May 16, but it was delayed after the FBI disclosed it had withheld more than 4,500 documents from the defense during McVeigh's 1997 trial. The Justice Department said nothing in the documents cast doubt on the bomber's guilt.

Defense attorneys sought an additional delay but were turned down. McVeigh then decided to halt all appeals..."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2001/06/12/timothy-mcveigh-put-to-death-for-oklahoma-city-bombings.html
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Sorry- I tend to be long-winded when answering questions... :sheesh:

I have said enough and I will get off. :blushing:
 
  • #115
Going to chime in here if I may. It would seem to me the prosecution has presented very strong evidence of his guilt of the murders. No dispute there. He represents himself, which considering he has legal counsel, alrighty. The one thing that concerns me....is the possibility of mental illness. So IF he receives death penalty, and it comes out later he is mentally ill...how big of problem is this going to be, if any?
I know true mental illness can change things, but he does not want to present that (don't even know if he has been evaluated)...
I just don't want this turning into a circus, you know? I feel so bad for the victims and their families and friends, the church family and all.
 
  • #116
..............Without the agony of trying to decide between life and death, a sentencing proceeding that followed a guilty plea could pay tribute to the victims, focusing on the value of their lives and the consequences of their loss. All family members could voice their pain, regardless of their view on the death penalty. It would not be an easy day, but far better than months of focusing only on Roof, followed by years of appeals and uncertainty.

the real-life operation of the death penalty suggests that its application to Roof would only pave the way for future cases in which the death penalty is invoked to harm the very community on which he inflicted so much pain.

death penalty cannot be separated from the issue of racial discrimination, especially in the South. The history of slavery and lynching left deep scars in the black community, and the current death penalty does not fare much better. More than 8 in 10 of the executions carried out since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976 have occurred in the South.


Blacks make up more than one-third of the 1,170 defendants executed in the region, with most convicted of murdering a white victim.

Given the racial disproportion inherent in the modern application of the death penalty, it is no surprise that most African Americans (including me) oppose the death penalty, a position that would also disqualify most of them (and me) from serving on the jury in Roof’s case.



As a result, if the Roof trial continues on its present course, a jury will be chosen that represents only part of the community. Those who oppose the death penalty on principle will be struck from the pool of jurors by the presiding judge. Those who express doubts about the death penalty will likely be struck by the prosecution. The resulting jury will have fewer blacks, fewer women and fewer people of faiths that oppose the death penalty than a jury selected at random from the residents of Charleston. That cannot be a desirable outcome in such an emotional and racially charged case.


 
  • #117
I live in charleston & have friends in law enforcement & fire/ems as my husband is a captain with the fire dept. Dylann Roof is NOT in any way learning disabled or slow.. he is somewhat socially awkward, therefor has a hard time talking with people, but he's actually highly intelligent... he wont be given a light sentence

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  • #118
Going to chime in here if I may. It would seem to me the prosecution has presented very strong evidence of his guilt of the murders. No dispute there. He represents himself, which considering he has legal counsel, alrighty. The one thing that concerns me....is the possibility of mental illness. So IF he receives death penalty, and it comes out later he is mentally ill...how big of problem is this going to be, if any?
I know true mental illness can change things, but he does not want to present that (don't even know if he has been evaluated)...
I just don't want this turning into a circus, you know? I feel so bad for the victims and their families and friends, the church family and all.

He is not mentally ill... distorted views of society, but not mentally ill.. the court had a competency hearing


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  • #119
The jury has already been chosen... the family struggles with what they want, life or death penalty but they seem to indicate they will be satisfied with either. This is just the federal case. He will also be tried by the state as well next year

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  • #120
I live in charleston & have friends in law enforcement & fire/ems as my husband is a captain with the fire dept. Dylann Roof is NOT in any way learning disabled or slow.. he is somewhat socially awkward, therefor has a hard time talking with people, but he's actually highly intelligent... he wont be given a light sentence

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

bbm I remember reading that same statement earlier in this forum, but I cannot find it now. Apparently, he had been tested and scored as very intelligent. I don't think he has been exposed to many different people, he's had very little higher education, if any, and he is young. I think a lot of his attitude when being asked questions is his simply not giving a damm about his predicament (to put it mildly) and possibly his disdain when he talks to people who don't believe the things he does. -- No mitigation for him here, that's just how I have perceived him when he was on the news, etc., and what I had seen written about his mental capacity.

And another thing,

Welcome to Websleuths, cew1022, we're glad you're here!!
 

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