School district allows religous daggers!!

[kgeaux]

This is a difficult issue, which has come up in a lot of districts. To say that this is a special privilege is not quite correct, since the kirpan is not a weapon as such but an insignia of devotion - as far as I know, Christians are not prohibited from wearing crosses, which are also insignia. And Nova is correct, the prohibition of religion in schools refers to the pushing of a faith by the teachers, not to the personal faith of the students, so as to avoid the appearance of the state sponsoring a particular church. I wouldn't compare something as significant as the kirpan to toy knives, etc. Also, it is my understanding that these daggers are not generally usable for violent purposes, as they are usually dull and pinioned into the sheath, and not much more dangerous than a pair of scissors. This is not a choice for baptized Sikhs, it is part of their identity. This is not a frivolous request on the part of this family, who might not have access to a quality Sikh parochial school.

This would not bother me if this were my son's school. Actually, I think it is a sign that zero tolerance without context might be starting to loosen its weird grasp.

Just my opinion.

Children have been expelled from schools---not suspended, but expelled---for having fingernail clippers and inch long plastic star wars toys. Neither of those are weapons, either. One is a hygiene tool, the other is a toy. The school districts have taken the stance that their decisions in the cases I mention were due to having "zero tolerance" for weapons---in other words, the shape of the offending object is of paramount importance, while the INTENT of the object holds no importance at all.

I am a huge opponent of zero tolerance. Huge opponent. I also would not have a problem with allowing tbe little kirpan to be brought to school, but it's not only Christian crosses and kirpans----somebody is going to show up with a pentagram and claim to be a satan worshiper!

 

[WhyaDuck?]

Children have been expelled from schools---not suspended, but expelled---for having fingernail clippers and inch long plastic star wars toys. Neither of those are weapons, either. One is a hygiene tool, the other is a toy. The school districts have taken the stance that their decisions in the cases I mention were due to having "zero tolerance" for weapons---in other words, the shape of the offending object is of paramount importance, while the INTENT of the object holds no importance at all.

I am a huge opponent of zero tolerance. Huge opponent. I also would not have a problem with allowing tbe little kirpan to be brought to school, but it's not only Christian crosses and kirpans----somebody is going to show up with a pentagram and claim to be a satan worshiper!

BBM

I don't actually have a problem with that either.

 

[Nova]

Well, I apologize, I was simply mentioning what the comments on the article were saying.

No need for you to apologize, Lucid. You made it clear you were summarizing the article and I was responding to the article.

That business about the "children are forbidden to pray in school" always gets my goat. I was raised in a devout evangelical household and from an early age I was expected to nurture a personal relationship with God. I certainly wasn't taught to depend on public school teachers to lead me in prayer.

I'm not technically a Christian nowadays, but I still pray. And I still manage to pray when and where I please without the assistance of a public school teacher.

 

[Nova]

From what I understand Nova, they are not ceremonial daggers. They are a MUST for all baptized Sikh. They have been a must since 1699.

This is a tough one. Because, if they are a must and these people MUST wear them to comply with their religious beliefs, how do you make them take them off?

But then again, if you allow these kirpans, then where is the line drawn???

It's not that difficult a line for me, though as a rule I am just as strongly in favor of freedom of religion as freedom of speech, etc.

Freedom of religion obviously isn't absolute; if it were, we'd have murderers claiming their religion requires human sacrifice. Just as with birkas and drivers' license photos, sometimes we have to make difficult choices.

No weapons at school is a relatively easy one for me. If it's really so important to Seikh children, let them make daggers out of felt. God will understand.


(BTW, I didn't mean "ceremonial" as in unimportant; I meant "ceremonial" as in Holy Communion is ceremonial.)

 

[Nova]

Yes, it can be an issue, re: usability. Orthodox Sikhs claim the dagger must be usable in order to keep with the tenants of the faith. Others compromise by making the dagger not sharp (which is fairly common, I think), and others pinion it in its sheath. Still others allow for small gold dagger pendants as a symbolic presence (though this would not usually be acceptable at all to Orthodox Sikhs).

Generally, conditions are negotiated between the Sikh community and the school board, and safety precautions are made. In Quebec, for instance, kirpans must be worn in a hard sheath that no other student can access (to prevent another student using the kirpan) under the student's clothes, and it must be secured by a heavy fabric cover. I believe this was upheld by the Supreme Court of Canada in 2006.

Orthodox Sikhs need to home school, I guess.

 

[Lucid]

No need for you to apologize, Lucid. You made it clear you were summarizing the article and I was responding to the article.

Thanks!

I remember when I was in high school, there was a prayer/study group. One of the guys even carried his bible around. But I know he was having trouble for it, because I specifically remember him complaining that kids "can walk the halls yelling swear words, but yet he can't carry his bible because its offensive". Not sure what the situation was, but it sounded to me as if a member/s of faculty had spoken to him.

That was 10 years ago, and I don't know how much things have changed in schools - but I know things can change fast, as during the 12 years that I was actually in school - that is when the "under God" part of the pledge was removed.

I have no idea if people really get in trouble for wearing religious things. My son is a first grader, and his school is right across the street from a huge private christian college. A lot of people in the area are somewhat religious, and those who aren't are pretty tolerant, seeing as it seems to be a large part of the community. So I know his school is slack on the religious thing - he still says "under God", something I marveled at when he first came home and told me the pledge of allegiance he'd learned.

Anyway, the fact that this kirpan is wrapped up and worn underneath clothes makes things a little better. My issue isn't the kirpan itself, but the fact that it is allowed while other kids are suspended/expelled for toy weapons and a simple lack of judgement to bring them in. It's not right for one kid to get suspended and always have this on his permanent record because of a toy, while his classmate walks around with a hidden dagger.

And I worry that the kids wearing the dagger are too young. Does a 4th grader have that kind of judgement, not to get fed up and pull it out if they get teased too much? I don't know. I would have thought so a few years ago - I remember the boys in my classes showing off their swiss army knives! - but then I hear about 8 year olds being fed up and attempting suicide. Things are different now. Even if they are somehow secured or hard to get to being worn under clothing, I'm sure a kid could still get it out, it just might take a few minutes. And I have no experience with knives or daggers personally - but I have heard that a dull blade is more dangerous than a sharp one. I don't know if that is true, but the fact that some kirpans are dulled down, blunt, etc doesn't really change things for me. As WhyaDuck posted, they need to be usable for the religion, so if they are already going against their religion by wearing useless secured blades, what is the point of wearing them at all?

 

[southcitymom]

If the kirpan was a sharp, dangerous dagger, I'd say nope. But clearly, it is not.

 

[Trident]

I'm old. I remember the days when the majority ruled and the ice man cometh with his horse, wagon, and blocks of ice for the ice box.

That said, I remember a time, not long ago, when the rules of the majority (like NO weapons of any kind, plastic or otherwise) were allowed in school buildings. How many kids got kicked out for water guns or even tiny, GI Joe, plastic "weapons"?

Now, I see WE, the people of the United States, are being possibly forced to break our RULES/LAWS and kowtow to the religious beliefs of the FEW. Test case, test case, good Lord, my hinky meter is flashing.

Once upon a time, when the majority DID hold sway, those in the minority either accepted the MAJORITY rule or took to alternatives, like a school for Sikhs. I see this is not being done here, therefore, the MAJORITY vote is being illegally disregarded in favor of the MINORITY. WHY? You cannot please everyone all the time - let the MAJORITY rule take effect.

Today there are many religions coming into this country. My grandfather was an immigrant, but he assimilated. He was smart enough to realize he had come here for a reason - FREEDOM. Today FREEDOM belongs to every new immigrant legal or otherwise with a different perspective or thought pattern. In some case Sharia Laws would be foisted upon free people who fought for this land, died for it, and risked death to give us a beautiful, bountiful nation. Now, we are supposed to accept and condone anything anyone wants to tell us is their belief.

When I move to Saudi Arabia, do they bow to my beliefs, change their laws, and allow me to do as I will under the guise of religious freedom? Does Israel allow Christians to evangelize? See what I mean? There are so many other examples, there isn't room here.

Why, I ask, are the MAJORITY of Americans being forced to bow before every religious belief that immigrates into OUR country? Religious freedom? Not really. Religious freedom only guarantees YOU can worship any way you want, but you cannot foist YOUR beliefs onto the MAJORITY of us. I see this being done in this case and many others. MINORITIES supposedly give way to MAJORITY, not the other way around. Wear daggers if you will in the schools, but do it in a private school, since you know the rules of the country you came to. Barring that, go back where you came from, wear your daggers in honor, just don't expect us to bow down to your beliefs. We should NOT have to; it should NOT even be an issue. Check your dagger at the door or go somewhere else.

My opinion only

 

[Lucid]

I don't mind making room for other religions - I have always had a "live and let live" sort of attitude, and as long as people don't bother me about what I do or believe, I don't bother them. But it does get to me that the religion this country was founded on has been hidden as offensive - anything to do with religious holidays has been removed - "winter" break now instead of Christmas break, and other things - and now children of another religion are allowed to walk around wearing daggers (dangerous or not) in school.

 

[Nova]

I'm old. I remember the days when the majority ruled and the ice man cometh with his horse, wagon, and blocks of ice for the ice box.

That said, I remember a time, not long ago, when the rules of the majority (like NO weapons of any kind, plastic or otherwise) were allowed in school buildings. How many kids got kicked out for water guns or even tiny, GI Joe, plastic "weapons"?

Now, I see WE, the people of the United States, are being possibly forced to break our RULES/LAWS and kowtow to the religious beliefs of the FEW. Test case, test case, good Lord, my hinky meter is flashing.

Once upon a time, when the majority DID hold sway, those in the minority either accepted the MAJORITY rule or took to alternatives, like a school for Sikhs. I see this is not being done here, therefore, the MAJORITY vote is being illegally disregarded in favor of the MINORITY. WHY? You cannot please everyone all the time - let the MAJORITY rule take effect.

Today there are many religions coming into this country. My grandfather was an immigrant, but he assimilated. He was smart enough to realize he had come here for a reason - FREEDOM. Today FREEDOM belongs to every new immigrant legal or otherwise with a different perspective or thought pattern. In some case Sharia Laws would be foisted upon free people who fought for this land, died for it, and risked death to give us a beautiful, bountiful nation. Now, we are supposed to accept and condone anything anyone wants to tell us is their belief.

When I move to Saudi Arabia, do they bow to my beliefs, change their laws, and allow me to do as I will under the guise of religious freedom? Does Israel allow Christians to evangelize? See what I mean? There are so many other examples, there isn't room here.

Why, I ask, are the MAJORITY of Americans being forced to bow before every religious belief that immigrates into OUR country? Religious freedom? Not really. Religious freedom only guarantees YOU can worship any way you want, but you cannot foist YOUR beliefs onto the MAJORITY of us. I see this being done in this case and many others. MINORITIES supposedly give way to MAJORITY, not the other way around. Wear daggers if you will in the schools, but do it in a private school, since you know the rules of the country you came to. Barring that, go back where you came from, wear your daggers in honor, just don't expect us to bow down to your beliefs. We should NOT have to; it should NOT even be an issue. Check your dagger at the door or go somewhere else.

My opinion only

I'll have to take your word on the ice man.

But the United States of America has a constitution that guarantees minority rights. The country was founded by men who feared the tyranny of the majority as much as they feared the tyranny of a king, and they wrote constitutional protections to ensure that the many couldn't dictate to the few when it came to fundamental freedoms.

Unless you are more than 220 years old, that was as true when you and I were kids as it is today.

In the case of the daggers, I think they are a security problem.

But they are hardly a case of a minority "imposing its beliefs" on the majority; Seiks don't require everyone to wear a dagger, no more than Jews require everyone to wear a yamulke.

Yes, things are done differently in Saudi Arabia. Is that the model you want for the U.S.A.? It isn't mine.

 

[Nova]

If the kirpan was a sharp, dangerous dagger, I'd say nope. But clearly, it is not.

I'm not so sure. How long do you think it would take a 4th grader to sharpen a dagger? I know most would do no such thing, no more than Christian kids make daggers out of crosses; but it isn't "most" that are the issue.

 

[Nova]

I don't mind making room for other religions - I have always had a "live and let live" sort of attitude, and as long as people don't bother me about what I do or believe, I don't bother them. But it does get to me that the religion this country was founded on has been hidden as offensive - anything to do with religious holidays has been removed - "winter" break now instead of Christmas break, and other things - and now children of another religion are allowed to walk around wearing daggers (dangerous or not) in school.

Authorities make mistakes. Telling a kid he can't carry a Bible at school is not just ridiculous, it's unconstitutional, in my opinion. (I'm assuming there were no other factors such as teachers telling children to carry Bibles, etc.) But to my knowledge, there is no constitutional provision barring religious displays EXCEPT on government property. You and your local KFC can put up all the Christmas trees you want.

This country was quite specifically NOT founded on a religion and the most important founding fathers--including Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin--weren't even Christians. (Their views varied; Jefferson, for example, saw Jesus as an important philosopher, but a human one.)

And if we're going with the "who got here first" rule, shouldn't we celebrate only Native American holy days? Since Native Americans, like nearly all cultures in the world, celebrated the Winter Solstice, "Winter Break" seems the proper terminology.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I'll have to take your word on the ice man.

But the United States of America has a constitution that guarantees minority rights. The country was founded by men who feared the tyranny of the majority as much as they feared the tyranny of a king, and they wrote constitutional protections to ensure that the many couldn't dictate to the few when it came to fundamental freedoms.

Unless you are more than 220 years old, that was as true when you and I were kids as it is today.

In the case of the daggers, I think they are a security problem.

But they are hardly a case of a minority "imposing its beliefs" on the majority; Seiks don't require everyone to wear a dagger, no more than Jews require everyone to wear a yamulke.

Yes, things are done differently in Saudi Arabia. Is that the model you want for the U.S.A.? It isn't mine.

Nova everything I've read said all baptized Sikhs MUST wear a kirpan at all times.

 

[Nova]

Nova everything I've read said all baptized Sikhs MUST wear a kirpan at all times.

I understand. But when it comes to children, I side with security over anybody's religious custom.

They can make kirpans out of felt or cardboard, or they can homeschool, or they could just act like rational adults and change their customs--not that anybody does that when it comes to religion (i.e., I'm not suggesting Sikhs are specially stubborn or arbitrary).

This is obviously just how *I* would interpret the Constitution. Courts may well disagree.

 

[southcitymom]

I'm not so sure. How long do you think it would take a 4th grader to sharpen a dagger? I know most would do no such thing, no more than Christian kids make daggers out of crosses; but it isn't "most" that are the issue.

Hey friend!

So wait - am I hearing you right? Should dull crosses also be banned since they could be sharpened into a weapon by a crafty 4th grader?

I fear I am missing your point, and I am sure that's all my fault!

ETA - I do agree if it's the wooden nature of the kirpan that is the issue, a felt one is a great idea. Still - it just doesn't strike me as a weaponish thing - though, of course, it is referred to as a dagger!

 

[southcitymom]

i understand. But when it comes to children, i side with security over anybody's religious custom.

They can make kirpans out of felt or cardboard, or they can homeschool, or they could just act like rational adults and change their customs--not that anybody does that when it comes to religion (i.e., i'm not suggesting sikhs are specially stubborn or arbitrary).

This is obviously just how *i* would interpret the constitution. Courts may well disagree.

bbm

lmao!

 

[southcitymom]

I want a symbol that shows I fight against evil at every juncture!! Maybe a rhinestone cape! :dance:

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I understand. But when it comes to children, I side with security over anybody's religious custom.

They can make kirpans out of felt or cardboard, or they can homeschool, or they could just act like rational adults and change their customs--not that anybody does that when it comes to religion (i.e., I'm not suggesting Sikhs are specially stubborn or arbitrary).

This is obviously just how *I* would interpret the Constitution. Courts may well disagree.

I guess I don't see it as a custom. It has been a rule since 1699.
That's why I have said it's a tough call. IMO

 

[Nova]

Hey friend!

So wait - am I hearing you right? Should dull crosses also be banned since they could be sharpened into a weapon by a crafty 4th grader?

I fear I am missing your point, and I am sure that's all my fault!

ETA - I do agree if it's the wooden nature of the kirpan that is the issue, a felt one is a great idea. Still - it just doesn't strike me as a weaponish thing - though, of course, it is referred to as a dagger!

No, you're not missing my point. You're just pointing out the hole I opened in my own argument. B----! :waitasec:

So I will close the hole by arguing that the difference is a cross is not by nature a weapon; a kirpan is, even if its use as a weapon is intended to be symbolic.

Here's how reasonable Sikhs are dealing with the issue:

Not all those who identify themselves as Sikhs carry or recommend carrying a kirpan usable as a weapon. Hardeep Singh Kohli, who identifies himself and most of the Sikhs he knows as secular Sikhs, criticised UK Sikh judge Sir Mota Singh QC for calling for Sikh schoolchildren to be allowed to carry the kirpan, saying "he thinks it's OK for kids to take knives to class. ... I'm simply not comfortable with knives being allowed into school. ...small, symbolic kirpans are attached to combs that Sikhs keep in their hair. Similarly, small kirpan-shaped pendants are worn around the neck, again fulfilling the criterion of the faith that the dagger be ever-present.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan


Look, all or nearly all religions descend from belief systems that at some point in the distant past practiced human sacrifice. But our ancestors eventually invoked reason on the subject and substituted symbolic sacrifices (such as Holy Communion) for actual blood offerings. (I'll apologize in advance to the Christians I just offended, but the practice of communion wasn't invented out of thin air.)

In my view there is no reason the application of reason to religion can't continue. As the Wiki paragraph suggests, many (probably most) Sikhs have already found symbolic remedies to the problem of arming children. The rest of the Sikhs can follow suit.

It never hurts any of us to apply a little reason to our faith.

 

[WhyaDuck?]

I would suggest that sometimes the point of religion is that some things in it stay the same. Change is not the only way to be reasonable; one can apply reason to consistency, as well.