School district allows religous daggers!!

  • #81
Like I said posts ago, they believe they have to have it. We can't change what they believe. So, there are only a couple options. Allow them to carry them, or kick them out of school.
We can't expect them to not carry them.

Of course, we can expect their parents to behave like rational human beings. It may not happen, but we can give them the benefit of the doubt and expect it.

Assuming people are slaves to their religious superstitions is not just cynical, but dangerous. It's how a large number of the wars throughout history were started. (But no wonder the PP is full of posts insisting we can't deal civilly with Muslims! People do tend to project their own beliefs and traits onto others.)

And, yes, if Sikhs can't find a way to accommodate school rules, they can home school or send their kids to private schools, just like anybody else.
 
  • #82
Of course, we can expect their parents to behave like rational human beings. It may not happen, but we can give them the benefit of the doubt and expect it.

Assuming people are slaves to their religious superstitions is not just cynical, but dangerous. It's how a large number of the wars throughout history were started. (But no wonder the PP is full of posts insisting we can't deal civilly with Muslims! People do tend to project their own beliefs and traits onto others.)

And, yes, if Sikhs can't find a way to accommodate school rules, they can home school or send their kids to private schools, just like anybody else.

See, this is why I have a hard time agreeing with you on this.
Why is it not rational to stay true to your beliefs?

Why are you considering people slaves who hold true to thier beliefs? Why is it dangerous? Wars are fought for many reasons. Yes, some religious, but it's life. It's been that way since the beginning and will be that way til the end.

I'm certainly not projecting my own beliefs on others because I'm not a Sikh, but I do see why they care so much about their kirpans.

If they are kicked out, I'm sure they will find other forms of education. Just as you suggested. But saying they are not rational and slaves to their religious superstitions is a bit much IMO.

As a matter of fact, how can you call someone's belief superstition?
That makes no sense to me at all.
 
  • #83
BTW, the first sentence in the above post was a joke. Hence the smilie.
Too late to edit to say that.

No problem and no offense taken. I took it as a joke.
 
  • #84
See, this is why I have a hard time agreeing with you on this.
Why is it not rational to stay true to your beliefs?

Why are you considering people slaves who hold true to thier beliefs? Why is it dangerous? Wars are fought for many reasons. Yes, some religious, but it's life. It's been that way since the beginning and will be that way til the end.

I'm certainly not projecting my own beliefs on others because I'm not a Sikh, but I do see why they care so much about their kirpans.

If they are kicked out, I'm sure they will find other forms of education. Just as you suggested. But saying they are not rational and slaves to their religious superstitions is a bit much IMO.

As a matter of fact, how can you call someone's belief superstition?
That makes no sense to me at all.

The "projection" remark wasn't directed at you personally, K. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. But I stand by my argument that once we conclude that religious beliefs are rigid and unchangeable, we're left with little alternative but bloodshed. History shows that rather clearly.

As for superstition, here's a good definition:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/superstition


A belief resulting from "a false conception of causation." Isn't that what we think everybody else's religion is? It's only our own that we find reasonable.

But in fact, faith and reason are mutually exclusive by definition. "Faith" is the positive word; "superstition" is the negative one. But they both describe the same phenomena.

As a matter of fact, I think carrying a dagger as a symbol of one's commitment to fight for right and virtue is a lovely idea. But insisting that the dagger be an actual dagger, rather than a non-lethal replica is silly.
 
  • #85
Kimberly, I realize the fact that wearing the kirpan is a rule is very significant to you. But to me, men makes rules and they can make a new one. I do however think this business of lengthy suspensions for every offense has gotten out of control. Whatever happened to simply confiscating something and telling the kid not to bring it back to school?

I realize there are necessarily other objects at school that can be turned into weapons, but that is not their primary purpose.

Sikhs are relatively few in number, and we've already seen sources that say the majority do NOT wear the actual dagger to school (but wear a symbolic replica instead). So the fact that no kirpan has been used in an incident of school violence yet isn't too surprising; but it doesn't change the principle.

BBM

Just a small note - it is only a requirement for a small portion of the Sikh community, anyway - only "baptized" Khalsa Sikhs, who have adopted an extra overtly-devotional identity.

Carry on.
 
  • #86
I just can't see calling someone else's beliefs superstitions. I do think that belittles them.
Maybe I'm wrong. But I would take GREAT offense to someone saying my beliefs are superstitions.
 
  • #87
I simply must weigh in here... I am boots on the ground. my son is in this school system

1)it is a diverse area... many religions and beliefs represented.

2)this first came to light before the Christmas break and all parents/people residing in the district got a hard copy letter addressing the issue...that a child had brought a 'knife' to school.. it was deemed to be a religious symbol and the board said they would meet on the issue later ((mind you this is not a huge amount of kids sharing this belief but the board took it upon themselves to step back and take the time to evaluate what it would mean to kids who do believe in this))

-about two weeks ago.. long before the fox news "broadcast" we got a letter/email from the board saying that kids who feel the need to carry this item can do so at school but only if it is carried inside a fabric sheath underneath their clothing.

-so let the kids (my gosh!!! maybe a handful in our huge district!!) do this...

-I am sure if anyone abuses it or does anything otherwise it will be further revisited.

-we are a hugely diverse group in the metro detroit area.

-okay I guess that was about it.. but I am sincerley okay with it and my card~carrying Catholic son can proudly attend with all of his friends... whether they carry this religious item under their clothing or not..

-my only concern is that they all pass their science test which is coming up next week. I am sure all the kids are praying to whatever God they pray to that they do as are their parents.
 
  • #88
An interesting aside.........Baptised Sikhs are all required to carry the kirpan except if they are riding on an airplane, they are allowed to remove it, fly, and still keep to their faith. As there were not any airplanes available in 1699, I'm guessing they made up a new rule that would allow them to keep to the spirit of their tradition while enjoying the modern convenience of getting on an airplane.

Schoolaged Sikhs can carry the kirpan at all times.....if they are homeschooled. Their right to follow their own religious practices are important rights to protect......until their practices infringe on my childrens' rights to go to school without fear of violence from weapons carried from schoolmates.
 
  • #89
Like I said posts ago, they believe they have to have it. We can't change what they believe. So, there are only a couple options. Allow them to carry them, or kick them out of school.
We can't expect them to not carry them.

BUT, we can expect them to carry on their constitutional beliefs in private schools the same way the Catholic religion has done with Parochial schools. This is a viable alternative.
 
  • #90
I simply must weigh in here... I am boots on the ground. my son is in this school system

1)it is a diverse area... many religions and beliefs represented.

2)this first came to light before the Christmas break and all parents/people residing in the district got a hard copy letter addressing the issue...that a child had brought a 'knife' to school.. it was deemed to be a religious symbol and the board said they would meet on the issue later ((mind you this is not a huge amount of kids sharing this belief but the board took it upon themselves to step back and take the time to evaluate what it would mean to kids who do believe in this))

-about two weeks ago.. long before the fox news "broadcast" we got a letter/email from the board saying that kids who feel the need to carry this item can do so at school but only if it is carried inside a fabric sheath underneath their clothing.

-so let the kids (my gosh!!! maybe a handful in our huge district!!) do this...

-I am sure if anyone abuses it or does anything otherwise it will be further revisited.

-we are a hugely diverse group in the metro detroit area.

-okay I guess that was about it.. but I am sincerley okay with it and my card~carrying Catholic son can proudly attend with all of his friends... whether they carry this religious item under their clothing or not..

-my only concern is that they all pass their science test which is coming up next week. I am sure all the kids are praying to whatever God they pray to that they do as are their parents.

Quite frankly, I don't care what anyone does in private, or what religious beliefs they hold. To each their own.

My family fought in the Revolution, the Civil War. Where were the Sikhs then? Is any of their blood on this land of the free and the home of the brave? Sorry, but we founded this nations on certain principals, and freedom of religion was one of them. There will be no State religion, everyone may worship as they may, BUT, they did not say ANYONE'S religion was above the law.

I remember the "love it or leave it" sayings. Now I say, "obey the laws or go back where you came from". Not original, but very applicable in today's society. You have a dagger? My kid can't have a tiny, plastic GI JOE gun? Balderdash, insanity. Rot from within. Of course, this is only my opinion.

If you want/need to follow your religious beliefs, which do not correlate to the laws of your school district, be men enough/people enough to stand up for your religion - found, and fund your own schools. Until then, obey or go back where you came from.

I know this sounds harsh, but so where the dead bodies of our ancestors in the American Revolution, the Civil War. God, those picture stay in my mind. Yet, today, many who come here think we have to bow to THEIR beliefs. WHY? To me the blood shed by my people speaks volumes, they wanted freedom. They gave their lives for freedom, and yet, our freedoms are being eroded by little incursions of tiny, dull daggers, mosques being built where we "say" middle eastern terrorists attacked our country.

I say, "What in bloody 'ell is going on here? Is THIS what my ancestors died for? NO, it is not. Once we were a STRONG nation, we had principals, now? We have unemployment, no real products to sell. Daggers in school, Sharia laws? Not exactly a free nation, but a nation so free there are no absolutes and a nation/house divided against itself cannot stand - but of course our enemies know that. Problem is, we do not.

Once again, my opinion only





My opinion only.
 
  • #91
An interesting aside.........Baptised Sikhs are all required to carry the kirpan except if they are riding on an airplane, they are allowed to remove it, fly, and still keep to their faith. As there were not any airplanes available in 1699, I'm guessing they made up a new rule that would allow them to keep to the spirit of their tradition while enjoying the modern convenience of getting on an airplane.

Schoolaged Sikhs can carry the kirpan at all times.....if they are homeschooled. Their right to follow their own religious practices are important rights to protect......until their practices infringe on my childrens' rights to go to school without fear of violence from weapons carried from schoolmates.

GREAT POST, needs repeating. LOL. So, they can fly on planes, without the dagger 'cause they couldn't otherwise? LOL again. Wow, how convenient to their God-given rules, LOL.
 
  • #92
BUT, we can expect them to carry on their constitutional beliefs in private schools the same way the Catholic religion has done with Parochial schools. This is a viable alternative.

Yes, I agree. And have stated that several times.
We only have two options.... let them carry them, or kick them out.
If we kick them out, I'm sure they will find other forms of education.
 
  • #93
Yes, I agree. And have stated that several times.
We only have two options.... let them carry them, or kick them out.
If we kick them out, I'm sure they will find other forms of education.

My thoughts are that the schools shouldn't have to kick them out - and then possibly face lawsuits for discrimination or something. They should not expect the schools to allow this, knowing that any other child could never get away with bringing something like this to school - they should choose to educate their children by other means instead by their own will, instead of forcing the school into this position.

I think this is where the frustration is coming in for some, saying America is being forced to bow to other religions. Its not that the religion is here - it is that those who practice it simply expect the public to make room and make exceptions for them, even if their customs are against the law. They don't seem to have any interest in finding a law abiding way to practice their religion (at least those involved in this situation), they just want the public to let them do what they want. As many have said, they could build their own schools, but they don't.

I've never seen one of these kirpans. If they're dangerous, I wouldnt want them in schools, period. If they are not dangerous, then I don't care if they are there, but I also think, as many have said, the schools need to stop punishing kids just for bringing in a toy or something. That's extremely unfair to all the other kids.

But again, it shouldn't come down to the schools kicking the kids out for it - it is the parents responsibility to follow the rules, and if they don't think their child can fit in with those rules, then they need to find somewhere else for the child to go, rather than forcing this decision on the school. The school shouldn't have to choose between these two choices. The weapon rules were already there, and these parents chose to send their child to school with a kirpan anyway, and put up a fuss when it is taken away.
 
  • #94
My thoughts are that the schools shouldn't have to kick them out - and then possibly face lawsuits for discrimination or something. They should not expect the schools to allow this, knowing that any other child could never get away with bringing something like this to school - they should choose to educate their children by other means instead by their own will, instead of forcing the school into this position.

I think this is where the frustration is coming in for some, saying America is being forced to bow to other religions. Its not that the religion is here - it is that those who practice it simply expect the public to make room and make exceptions for them, even if their customs are against the law. They don't seem to have any interest in finding a law abiding way to practice their religion (at least those involved in this situation), they just want the public to let them do what they want. As many have said, they could build their own schools, but they don't.

I've never seen one of these kirpans. If they're dangerous, I wouldnt want them in schools, period. If they are not dangerous, then I don't care if they are there, but I also think, as many have said, the schools need to stop punishing kids just for bringing in a toy or something. That's extremely unfair to all the other kids.

But again, it shouldn't come down to the schools kicking the kids out for it - it is the parents responsibility to follow the rules, and if they don't think their child can fit in with those rules, then they need to find somewhere else for the child to go, rather than forcing this decision on the school. The school shouldn't have to choose between these two choices. The weapon rules were already there, and these parents chose to send their child to school with a kirpan anyway, and put up a fuss when it is taken away.

People break rules all the time. If a child is enrolled in a school that does not allow kirpans and the family refuses to have their child leave the kirpan at home, the school has to act. Lawsuit or not.

But it looks like not all schools are taking action against the kirpan.
 
  • #95
People break rules all the time. If a child is enrolled in a school that does not allow kirpans and the family refuses to have their child leave the kirpan at home, the school has to act. Lawsuit or not.

But it looks like not all schools are taking action against the kirpan.


Yeah, I know :crazy: I just wish people would do the right thing sometimes, instead of forcing it! In the world today, I bet they'd win the lawsuit too, which is frustrating. It shouldn't come down to that, but it does. I guess I was just pointing out what it SHOULD be like.

I can see why people are frustrated, though. To me, it is not so much about the weapon itself (unless its dangerous) as it is that it breaks a rule and they get away with it, where most kids wouldn't.

I wish I could find a picture of a kirpan, but all the ones I have seen so far are sheathed.

ETA: Found one. They DO look dangerous...
 
  • #96
I just can't see calling someone else's beliefs superstitions. I do think that belittles them.
Maybe I'm wrong. But I would take GREAT offense to someone saying my beliefs are superstitions.

A "superstition" is any belief that can't be verified by objective evidence. And that includes religious faith (including my own).

It isn't my fault if someone takes offense at my stating the obvious.

The social convention that we all pretend to respect every bit of nonsense everyone chooses to believe (as long as there's a building to go with it; we're allowed to mock the crazy homeless guy on the corner) is not only dishonest, it's dangerous because it aids people in clinging to their delusions. IMO, of course.
 
  • #97
This has come up in my area as well, a couple of years ago. I did some research at the time, and some of the local Sikh leaders were interviewed in the paper. (There was also a case of a Sikh girl running away and being reported missing to avoid an arranged, forced marriage, but I digress).

The point these folks were making is that wearing the knife is part of their faith, and that part of their faith includes both having the knife available for self defense AND for the defense of innocent third parties who are attacked. Their faith tells them they must have it, it must be useful as a knife (i.e. sharpened) and they must be able to draw it and use it in situations their faith considers appropriate. They also rely on the teachings of that same faith to not draw it when not appropriate, but a physical barrier would violate what they believe to be their religious duty.

To your point about a safe place to learn as being the high level concept, I really don't have a problem with someone who is a member of this faith carrying their dagger to school, under the presumption that advancing in the faith to the point where the dagger should be carried goes along with the education on when it may be used and when it may not. From what I understand of that teaching it's in line with my beliefs - I have various weapons, I'll use them for defense but never for aggression.

My point, which I don't make very clearly, is that safety in the schools does not come from the absence of weapons in a student's clothes, rather, it comes from the absence of malice in a student's mind. When I was in high school, which was a long time ago, I would bring guns to school so I could go target shooting with my friends afterward. I'd leave them in my car, but it was a small private school and I could have had them in 5 minutes if I wanted to. But not a single person on that campus was at risk because I had those guns in my car, because I had no intention or desire to hurt anyone. But now we have kids suspended or expelled for bringing a small knife to school in their lunch because it's a knife, not because it's used to harm or threaten anyone.

Now, to be consistent, if the Sikhs wear the dagger because their faith requires them to keep themselves safe and defended, and the school allows it, there is no basis on which to deny any student the ability to carry whatever they feel they need to be safe and defended. So should my daughter be allowed to pack a .357 to school if the Sikh kids have daggers? If not, why? Can I say it's a religious belief? Sure I can - one I came up with this afternoon. It's my religion, don't you start persecuting me for being a religious minority!

Cult: A small, unpopular religion.
Religion: A large, popular cult.​

My opinions, which along with $7.95 will get you a cup of coffee at any Starbucks:

--Don't worry about the daggers;
--Don't worry about plastic knives, water pistols, kids with Tylenol or anything like that;
--Get rid of all this "Zero Tolerance" crap and let people use their brains
--Allow teachers to expel kids who threaten or bully other students - whether with weapons, fists or words.

Yes, I feel better now.

Well, adnoid, if you're going to include my rebuttal within your post, then there's really no reason for me to be here, is there? :)

(ETA: BBM. I'm sure the vast majority of Sikh children who carry kirpans do so responsibly, just as most gun owners don't shoot their neighbors. But a public school should be a weapon-free zone, not a testing ground to show who was paying attention in weapon-safety class. BTW, I went to a charter high school that was located in a farm/ranch area. Lots of older kids had rifles in their trucks and I thought nothing of it. But the country has twice as many people now; violence (like all social interaction) increases geometrically as population increases arithmetically.)
 
  • #98
An interesting aside.........Baptised Sikhs are all required to carry the kirpan except if they are riding on an airplane, they are allowed to remove it, fly, and still keep to their faith. As there were not any airplanes available in 1699, I'm guessing they made up a new rule that would allow them to keep to the spirit of their tradition while enjoying the modern convenience of getting on an airplane.

Schoolaged Sikhs can carry the kirpan at all times.....if they are homeschooled. Their right to follow their own religious practices are important rights to protect......until their practices infringe on my childrens' rights to go to school without fear of violence from weapons carried from schoolmates.

And exactly! Thank you.
 
  • #99
My thoughts are that the schools shouldn't have to kick them out - and then possibly face lawsuits for discrimination or something. They should not expect the schools to allow this, knowing that any other child could never get away with bringing something like this to school - they should choose to educate their children by other means instead by their own will, instead of forcing the school into this position.

I think this is where the frustration is coming in for some, saying America is being forced to bow to other religions. Its not that the religion is here - it is that those who practice it simply expect the public to make room and make exceptions for them, even if their customs are against the law. They don't seem to have any interest in finding a law abiding way to practice their religion (at least those involved in this situation), they just want the public to let them do what they want. As many have said, they could build their own schools, but they don't.

I've never seen one of these kirpans. If they're dangerous, I wouldnt want them in schools, period. If they are not dangerous, then I don't care if they are there, but I also think, as many have said, the schools need to stop punishing kids just for bringing in a toy or something. That's extremely unfair to all the other kids.

But again, it shouldn't come down to the schools kicking the kids out for it - it is the parents responsibility to follow the rules, and if they don't think their child can fit in with those rules, then they need to find somewhere else for the child to go, rather than forcing this decision on the school. The school shouldn't have to choose between these two choices. The weapon rules were already there, and these parents chose to send their child to school with a kirpan anyway, and put up a fuss when it is taken away.

I don't think we need to single out the Sikhs in this area. Most religions have had some conflict with public institutions at one time or another; it's just that Lutherans, say, have been here longer and worked out the conflicts long ago.

And it also bears repeating that the kirpan is an issue to a tiny minority of Sikhs. And even there, many, if not most, Sikhs affected have already found ways to honor their faith and obey school rules.
 
  • #100
A "superstition" is any belief that can't be verified by objective evidence. And that includes religious faith (including my own).

It isn't my fault if someone takes offense at my stating the obvious.

The social convention that we all pretend to respect every bit of nonsense everyone chooses to believe (as long as there's a building to go with it; we're allowed to mock the crazy homeless guy on the corner) is not only dishonest, it's dangerous because it aids people in clinging to their delusions. IMO, of course.

But you are a steadfast supporter of Muslim rights. Muslim's freedom of religion.
But now all religious beliefs are dangerous "delusions". I'm done with the conversation.

That is BEYOND crazy to me.
 

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