Season 2 Episode 5

[Saul Vesalot]

I'm wondering if maybe the blood was placed (by Steven or whoever) in the car before it was moved. The mover caused the blood to flake off of other surfaces?

 

[Mrs Marple]

The sink scenario is ridiculous. How would someone in authority know that SA had bled into the sink? I thought KZ was taking it to test it had blood on it, not use it in another of her 'experiments'. It's just for theatrics.

 

[proudfootz]

Since the source of the blood contaminating the RAV4 is unknown some effort needs to be made to discover possible scenarios.

 

[missy1974]

The sink scenario is ridiculous. How would someone in authority know that SA had bled into the sink? I thought KZ was taking it to test it had blood on it, not use it in another of her 'experiments'. It's just for theatrics.

I have thought that since I first read it in a motion awhile back lol BUT... I don't think KZ is saying that it was anyone in LE.

Right now, she is saying Bobby had the means and opportunity to do that. She says that on the evening of November 3rd, SA reopened that gash while hooking up the trailer to his truck to go to Menards, he went into his trailer and just put tape on it and left. He says that when he got home, he went to bed, and in the morning, he noticed the blood was "cleaned up" in his sink. SA has been saying this all along, it is actually in his November 9th interview, which we see clips of in both MaM1 and MaM2. He has also said that he has told his lawyers this before, so this is not "new". Also, from early on, I believe the 5th, he has said that he saw lights in his yard and even turned around with his truck/trailer to check it out.

So...let's think hypothetically for a minute. Let's say that Bobby is responsible for TH's death. He has her body/RAV4 hidden on Kuss Rd where the dogs tracked, and they had a suspected burial site. It's Thursday night, he possibly knows that LE visited earlier (or maybe he didn't), but he see's SA is actively bleeding and then leaves for Menards. If he was thinking of a way out, here is his window of opportunity. Get into the trailer, wipe up the blood, take it to the RAV4 and put it where it was found.

I still had doubts about this theory because in MaM2, they show it as using a pipette or dropper, I think it would have to be a rag or cloth... and in one of KZ's answers on twitter last week indicated that it could have been done with a rag, so I'm assuming she has discussed that with an expert (maybe I shouldn't assume lol)

The blood has always looked odd to me. The swipe by the ignition. The blood flakes/crusts found on the floor (how does that happen???). The blood smeared on the CD case.

I think in the end, it fits, it could have happened, it was possible. Did it happen that way? I don't know. Does it present doubt? I think so. And I still think she had to look elsewhere because her expert said there was not enough of a sample to check the age of the blood and was concerned that it would be degraded.

One thing I have wondered... I wonder if they even checked the DNA on the blood?

 

[leslievernon]

the blood flakes... is there even such a fine surface in the car that would produce such flakes?
IMO this is a huge piece of evidence. if there is no chance for blood to flake like that in the car... i mean... their whole theory is null.

 

[leslievernon]

what do you mean, missy? DNA from the blood flakes...?

you mean that, if there is blood that cannot be connected to anyone, or unknown, in her car, that this is another nail in the coffin for the state...?

ETA: from the conversation bewteen zellner and dr. reich, we know that some blood samples are just to minimal, not to mention an age-test...

how much do you need for a test?... 1 nanogram.. 1 picogram...? i mean we're talking about things so tiny that you cannot see it with the naked eye. i'm not an expert on that.

 

[proudfootz]

I'm wondering if maybe the blood was placed (by Steven or whoever) in the car before it was moved. The mover caused the blood to flake off of other surfaces?

That's kind of the direction my thinking goes - if the blood was in some kind of container there may have been some dried blood on it that became dislodged.

 

[Karinna]

I am wondering if the RAV is still available in a crime lab somewhere?, or if they even keep vehicles for a long time that have been part of a crime?
Was there ever any independent testing in the RAV of SA & TH's supposed blood in it?
How could they test against TH's supposed blood unless they had a sample of hers somewhere to compare with?
As far as i know that was the only thing of TH they had to test, because where else could the forensics of TH be tested from seeing as there was no body or actual crime scene?

 

[missy1974]

I am wondering if the RAV is still available in a crime lab somewhere?, or if they even keep vehicles for a long time that have been part of a crime?
Was there ever any independent testing in the RAV of SA & TH's supposed blood in it?
How could they test against TH's supposed blood unless they had a sample of hers somewhere to compare with?
As far as i know that was the only thing of TH they had to test, because where else could the forensics of TH be tested from seeing as there was no body or actual crime scene?

The RAV4 is in Calumet County in their evidence still (according to KZ on twitter last week)

They obtained TH's pap smear from her doctor. That is what they used to compare to the blood/DNA in the RAV4.

 

[Karinna]

The sink scenario is ridiculous. How would someone in authority know that SA had bled into the sink? I thought KZ was taking it to test it had blood on it, not use it in another of her 'experiments'. It's just for theatrics.

IMO KZ is on the right track. My thinking is not so much a pipette or rag, because most households don't have pipettes laying around, but a rag is possible, although blood might be more difficult to extract blood from once the rag soaks it up, depending of course on the amount it soaked up. I am inclined more toward a damp sponge that we do dishes with in the kitchen. A sponge absorbs liquid easily, and can be wrung out easily too because whatever it soaks up would be kept liquid until it is rinsed out of the sponge under the tap in the sink. JMO.

 

[Karinna]

The RAV4 is in Calumet County in their evidence still (according to KZ on twitter last week)

They obtained TH's pap smear from her doctor. That is what they used to compare to the blood/DNA in the RAV4.

Thanks for clarifying missy. Do Dr.'s normally keep Pap smears? In my experience the Dr. sends the Pap smear to the laboratory for testing, and would think after the testing they are discarded? Most women have their Pap smear re done every 1-2 years.

 

[missy1974]

Thanks for clarifying missy. Do Dr.'s normally keep Pap smears? In my experience the Dr. sends the Pap smear to the laboratory for testing, and would think after the testing they are discarded? Most women have their Pap smear re done every 1-2 years.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...Preliminary-Examination-2005Dec06.pdf#page=51

according to Fassbenders testimony at the preliminary hearing, they keep them for 5 years. Who knew? I imagine every doctor or clinic has different retention periods though.

 

[Karinna]

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...Preliminary-Examination-2005Dec06.pdf#page=51

according to Fassbenders testimony at the preliminary hearing, they keep them for 5 years. Who knew? I imagine every doctor or clinic has different retention periods though.

Wonder where Fassbender got the info. from?
The Dr. doesn't keep the test, it has to get sent to a pathology laboratory to be tested for cervical cancer . From my experience of it anyway. And then the Dr. gives you the results once the report is sent to them.

 

[Saul Vesalot]

I really wouldn't be surprised if they are kept somewhere by someone. I can see there being a lot of value in having an old test to go back to, especially if something was a little irregular.
I just think it is weird the pap smears were used by the police. They took a fairly healthy number of things to get her DNA. I've never heard of a pap smear being used an any other case.

Editing to add:
Searching for other cases were pap smears were used. The BTK was caught when police got a warrant for his daughter's pap smear. (That was stored for 5 years).
But this is a little different, since they needed DNA to compare to evidence and didn't want to alert Dennis Rader. So this method was secretive. They didn't need to be secretive with Teresa. THOUGH, they may have gotten the idea from the BTK arrest. The testing of the pap smear took place in 2005. So maybe someone in Manitowoc remembered that?

 

[missy1974]

Wonder where Fassbender got the info. from?
The Dr. doesn't keep the test, it has to get sent to a pathology laboratory to be tested for cervical cancer . From my experience of it anyway. And then the Dr. gives you the results once the report is sent to them.

I'm assuming he got that info from the clinic. Sorry Karinna, I don't have the answer for you, it does seem strange to me as well.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I really wouldn't be surprised if they are kept somewhere by someone. I can see there being a lot of value in having an old test to go back to, especially if something was a little irregular.
I just think it is weird the pap smears were used by the police. They took a fairly healthy number of things to get her DNA. I've never heard of a pap smear being used an any other case.

Editing to add:
Searching for other cases were pap smears were used. The BTK was caught when police got a warrant for his daughter's pap smear. (That was stored for 5 years).
But this is a little different, since they needed DNA to compare to evidence and didn't want to alert Dennis Rader. So this method was secretive. They didn't need to be secretive with Teresa. THOUGH, they may have gotten the idea from the BTK arrest. The testing of the pap smear took place in 2005. So maybe someone in Manitowoc remembered that?

It was used in the BTK case.

To link her dad to BTK, they’d obtained one of Kerri’s Pap smears from years before at Kansas State University’s health clinic. They’d used that to confirm that the Rader family DNA closely matched DNA in the semen sample BTK left at the scene of a quadruple homicide in 1974.

Read more here: When your father is the BTK serial killer, forgiveness is not tidy

 

[Saul Vesalot]

It was used in the BTK case.


Read more here: When your father is the BTK serial killer, forgiveness is not tidy

I found that and edited it into that post. Should have just made a new one I guess. I think the difference would be that secrecy was called for with BTK and with Teresa, they had access to literally all of her possessions and took several items, presumably for DNA purposes.

 

[Karinna]

I really wouldn't be surprised if they are kept somewhere by someone. I can see there being a lot of value in having an old test to go back to, especially if something was a little irregular.
I just think it is weird the pap smears were used by the police. They took a fairly healthy number of things to get her DNA. I've never heard of a pap smear being used an any other case.

Editing to add:
Searching for other cases were pap smears were used. The BTK was caught when police got a warrant for his daughter's pap smear. (That was stored for 5 years).
But this is a little different, since they needed DNA to compare to evidence and didn't want to alert Dennis Rader. So this method was secretive. They didn't need to be secretive with Teresa. THOUGH, they may have gotten the idea from the BTK arrest. The testing of the pap smear took place in 2005. So maybe someone in Manitowoc remembered that?

I agree it is a different method of obtaining DNA, and certainly can't recall that happening in any other cases i have followed.
Interesting you found another case that pertains to it, but not common at all.

 

[Saul Vesalot]

I agree it is a different method of obtaining DNA, and certainly can't recall that happening in any other cases i have followed.
Interesting you found another case that pertains to it, but not common at all.

Yeah. And again, in that example, it was still a really unusual thing and still pretty different from this situation in how it was used. I am beginning to think that maybe they did get the idea from the BTK case.

I've searched here on websleuths, and the first 6 pages of results are either MaM, BTK, referencing the BTK thing, or pap smear talk that is unrelated to crimes. I think I'm done with the search for now. I'm fairly satisfied with my results.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I found that and edited it into that post. Should have just made a new one I guess. I think the difference would be that secrecy was called for with BTK and with Teresa, they had access to literally all of her possessions and took several items, presumably for DNA purposes.

Them using that source for DNA doesn't seem nefarious to me.

It actually makes the source more reliable in my opinion.