Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #7

[Wing Ding]

Originally Posted by Hope4More: Burgers, burgers, anywhere. A field in Wyoming, just east of Yellowstone.

*Goodness, is this the "In N Out" burger logo out west? We don't have them here on the east coast.

* I don't think so. Outside of its home state of California, In-N-Out Burger only has locations in Nevada, Utah, Arizona and Texas. Nothing in Wyoming (so far).

But they ARE yummy. If you are ever out west, put it on your To Do list. (or maybe you could call to place an order to go ala Hawkeye Pierce's "Adam's Rib" take-out order on M*S*H)

Hope this helps...

In-N-Out Burger logo:

Btw, the original owner liked the crossed palm trees in the movie It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World so much that he adopted the look for each of their stand-alone, outdoor locations.

Locations by state:

edited to add: In-N-Out Burger is so popular with out-of-staters, in fact, that earlier this year when I drove down to Bakersfield to watch the UC Bakersfield/OU Sooners baseball game... not more than 45 minutes after the game, six of the Sooners players had already placed their orders and were seated even by the time I got there!

 

[Sweetiemom]

We have two In-n-Out burger places here in San Antonio-one about 6 miles from me! Great food!

 

[Hope4More]

Goodness, is this the "In N Out" burger logo out west? We don't have them here on the east coast.

It's a statue for Bob's Big Boy, aka in some places as just Big Boy, a burger place headquartered in Michigan, used to serve burgers by carhops.

And....yep, In and Out burgers ARE delicious.

 

[Hope4More]

If she left the house between 6:00 and 6:30 while there's still some rush hour traffic to deal with, could she have gotten to Kingman by 10:30?

I wouldn't be surprised if she had seen other pics after the shower photos had been somehow snapped but I don't believe she could have seen what was in them, given the upside down/darkness of them - heck, she may have even uploaded them onto her laptop (causing the dark smudge on the usb cable) and still couldn't make them out, if she had the time and inclination (though I doubt that but with her who knows), she likely just thought deleting everything and washing the camera/memory stick with bleach was enough to disappear them.

About Salberg's mention of the nudes - she would not have seen them at that point because they had to have been deleted before the shower pics were taken, given their overwritten files.

I think so, depending on her route. It took me 4 hours to drive from Mesa to Kingman, going via 60, then 93, then briefly on 40, what I'm certain is a slower way of going than had she driven 60 to 17 to 40.

I was driving Saturday midday rather than a weekday around rush hour time, but even then the roads until 93 were extremely congested, backed up, & slow. The lived and drove in Mesa long enough to be familiar with Phoenix traffic, which is why IMO she wouldn't have taken 10 west all the way out.

From what I saw, getting off on 17 north would have been the quickest way to get out of slow Phoenix area traffic and to get going at an average speed of 80 an hour, and even faster going west on 40.

 

[salberg7]

Originally Posted by Hope4More: Burgers, burgers, anywhere. A field in Wyoming, just east of Yellowstone.




* I don't think so. Outside of its home state of California, In-N-Out Burger only has locations in Nevada, Utah, Arizona and Texas. Nothing in Wyoming (so far).

But they ARE yummy. If you are ever out west, put it on your To Do list. (or maybe you could call to place an order to go ala Hawkeye Pierce's "Adam's Rib" take-out order on M*S*H)

Hope this helps...

In-N-Out Burger logo:

Btw, the original owner liked the crossed palm trees in the movie It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World so much that he adopted the look for each of their stand-alone, outdoor locations.

Locations by state:

edited to add: In-N-Out Burger is so popular with out-of-staters, in fact, that earlier this year when I drove down to Bakersfield to watch the UC Bakersfield/OU Sooners baseball game... not more than 45 minutes after the game, six of the Sooners players had already placed their orders and were seated even by the time I got there!

Thank you! I am a burger lover and hope I get the opportunity to visit an In N Out! DH has family in LA area.

 

[Wing Ding]

Oh, Bob's Big Boy, not In-N-Out Burger. Whoops!

Bob's is another burger institution which originally began in Southern California. I remember eating there back in the 70's and thinking the food was just ok.

Today they are probably famous just for being famous -- like the Kardashians! More Bob's info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob's_Big_Boy

http://www.placesearth.com/usa/california/los_angeles/bobs_big_boy/bobs_big_boy_tl0.shtml

 

[Hope4More]

If she left the house between 6:00 and 6:30 while there's still some rush hour traffic to deal with, could she have gotten to Kingman by 10:30?

I wouldn't be surprised if she had seen other pics after the shower photos had been somehow snapped but I don't believe she could have seen what was in them, given the upside down/darkness of them - heck, she may have even uploaded them onto her laptop (causing the dark smudge on the usb cable) and still couldn't make them out, if she had the time and inclination (though I doubt that but with her who knows), she likely just thought deleting everything and washing the camera/memory stick with bleach was enough to disappear them.

About Salberg's mention of the nudes - she would not have seen them at that point because they had to have been deleted before the shower pics were taken, given their overwritten files.

I checked the user's manual for TA's Sony camera. She had to have known about the accidental photos and to have seen them, however briefly or incompletely.

Melendez testified it took 5 steps to delete an image on TA's camera. The manual's instructions for deleting more than one photo at a time list the same number of steps:


1. Camera must be on and have a still image displayed
2. User must go to menu and select "Index"
3. User must look at index of individual photos
4. User must select each image individually to delete
5. All selected images can be deleted at the same time

-------

The accidental photos were upside down, but presumably the menu settings for light etc. weren't changed from the last photo she took, as that would have required her to do so deliberately.

Not sure what she would have seen before the camera was bleached and washed, but no matter what she could or couldn't see, she had to have known the photos were taken after she began her attack, and that they were accidental. And given that they were accidental and represented the (timed) beginning and end of her slaughter of Travis, I can easily imagine they actually caught her attention more than the shower photos she likely did intend to delete as quickly as possible.

I think Flores surprised her with the news the camera and images had survived, but I don't think she was surprised about the accidental photos, nor especially worried about them, at least, not concerned enough to deviate from her standard first impulse, which is to lie, lie, lie, inconsistency of the lies no matter because more lies will do later on if need be.

 

[Hope4More]

PS, Geevee. Went to BK's site to check on an appeals related thing and while there reread (more accurately, re-re-re-re-reread ) Flores's initial report and Mimi's etc. handwritten statements.

Fwiw, about TA's bike : Mimi said she saw it out in the garage and that it "looked like he had been working on it."

And about the timeline. I know the info about computer activity at trial was conflicting, but again FWIW, Flores initially said the last activity was an email, sent at 4:16pm, or approximately 16 minutes after Zach said he left the house after being there for an entire hour, neither seeing or hearing Travis or the , not seeing her rental car in the garage, in the driveway or (by inference) parked smack in front of TA's house.

----------

The was well practiced in entering TA's house in the middle of the night after she knew everyone was asleep, and presumably had a regular hidey parking place, for that matter.

Thinking about the windows of his house...

Visible from the front of his house: the windows on the left ( one in front, one on the left side) had to be the bedroom windows of one of his roommates. No lights, that roomie likely asleep, especially at 4-4:30. TA's bathroom windows over the garage, no lights, first indication he may have gone to bed.

From the gated right side of the house --one of TA's bedroom windows is visible, ditto about being able to see if lights are on or off. Backyard, windows visible: TA's other bedroom window, his study window, sliding glass door (view of lights on or off downstairs), and window (s) of the back roomie's bedroom.

She'd have seen 2 unfamiliar cars (Zach's rental and Enrique's car), and IMO would have had no way of knowing who was there or what their schedules were. One guess is that she crept up the stairs to check out the roomies and to make sure TA didn't have a GF over.

Without knowing who was there or their schedules, I can't believe she parked anywhere visible from TA's house. My bet is on Bryce, and if TA asked her where she parked, she told him around the corner because she didn't want to get in the way of roomies' cars.

Also, from the handwritten statements, Travis parked his Prius in the 2 car part of the garage. The door I saw in the open 2 car part of his garage couldn't have been to the laundry room, because it was on the left side. Must have been to the one car part of the garage, which, I'm guessing, was used for storage, including for a time, her paltry few boxes. Not sure now where the door to the laundry room is- which part of the garage. If in the 2 car part, she would have had a closed off room (1 car part of garage) to hide herself and/or her getaway things in, one which likely no one had reason to access first or second thing on a regular weekday morning.

 

[TexMex]

Lunch in Houston before I head over to check on my parents

 

[RickshawFan]

PS, Geevee. Went to BK's site to check on an appeals related thing and while there reread (more accurately, re-re-re-re-reread ) Flores's initial report and Mimi's etc. handwritten statements.

Fwiw, about TA's bike : Mimi said she saw it out in the garage and that it "looked like he had been working on it."

And about the timeline. I know the info about computer activity at trial was conflicting, but again FWIW, Flores initially said the last activity was an email, sent at 4:16pm, or approximately 16 minutes after Zach said he left the house after being there for an entire hour, neither seeing or hearing Travis or the , not seeing her rental car in the garage, in the driveway or (by inference) parked smack in front of TA's house.

----------

The was well practiced in entering TA's house in the middle of the night after she knew everyone was asleep, and presumably had a regular hidey parking place, for that matter.

Thinking about the windows of his house...

Visible from the front of his house: the windows on the left ( one in front, one on the left side) had to be the bedroom windows of one of his roommates. No lights, that roomie likely asleep, especially at 4-4:30. TA's bathroom windows over the garage, no lights, first indication he may have gone to bed.

From the gated right side of the house --one of TA's bedroom windows is visible, ditto about being able to see if lights are on or off. Backyard, windows visible: TA's other bedroom window, his study window, sliding glass door (view of lights on or off downstairs), and window (s) of the back roomie's bedroom.

She'd have seen 2 unfamiliar cars (Zach's rental and Enrique's car), and IMO would have had no way of knowing who was there or what their schedules were. One guess is that she crept up the stairs to check out the roomies and to make sure TA didn't have a GF over.

Without knowing who was there or their schedules, I can't believe she parked anywhere visible from TA's house. My bet is on Bryce, and if TA asked her where she parked, she told him around the corner because she didn't want to get in the way of roomies' cars.

Also, from the handwritten statements, Travis parked his Prius in the 2 car part of the garage. The door I saw in the open 2 car part of his garage couldn't have been to the laundry room, because it was on the left side. Must have been to the one car part of the garage, which, I'm guessing, was used for storage, including for a time, her paltry few boxes. Not sure now where the door to the laundry room is- which part of the garage. If in the 2 car part, she would have had a closed off room (1 car part of garage) to hide herself and/or her getaway things in, one which likely no one had reason to access first or second thing on a regular weekday morning.

What about the possibility that he had an outdoor light with a movement detector? Those have a way of waking everyone up... would have had to have a plan for avoiding it if she came in the dark?

 

[Hope4More]

What about the possibility that he had an outdoor light with a movement detector? Those have a way of waking everyone up... would have had to have a plan for avoiding it if she came in the dark?

I'm guessing Travis didn't have such a thing as security lights, since he was philosophically opposed to even locking his doors.

Mesa is a quintessentially middle class suburban kind of place, and his neighborhood seemed very orderly, well kept, compact (houses very close to one another), and secure. I didn't see a single alarm company sign in any front yard, for example, something that is as commonplace as porch lights around these parts.

Travis wasn't oblivious. He lived somewhere where not locking the doors or having alarms etc. wasn't an unreasonable choice IMO, especially given he had no reason to believe the only monster in his life wasn't safely 1,000 miles distant.

 

[Wing Ding]

Travis wasn't oblivious. He lived somewhere where not locking the doors or having alarms etc. wasn't an unreasonable choice IMO, especially given he had no reason to believe the only monster in his life wasn't safely 1,000 miles distant.

Sadly, the lyrics to Stevie Nicks' "Silver Springs" comes to mind...

I begin not to love you...
Turn around, see me runnin'...
I'll say I loved you years ago...
Tell myself you never loved me, no...

Time casts a spell on you, but you won't forget me...
I know I could have loved you, but you would not let me...
I'll follow you down till the sound of my voice will haunt you...
You'll never get away from the sound of the woman that loves you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FLXwCc9kCk

Ironically, the white witch of Yreka now lives very close to where the white witch of rock music grew up (Phoenix). How's that for the butterfly effect (or whatever it's called), Jodi?

Maybe Stevie can go visit Jodi in person and play that song for her. Over and over and over...

 

[RickshawFan]

I checked the user's manual for TA's Sony camera. She had to have known about the accidental photos and to have seen them, however briefly or incompletely.

Melendez testified it took 5 steps to delete an image on TA's camera. The manual's instructions for deleting more than one photo at a time list the same number of steps:


1. Camera must be on and have a still image displayed
2. User must go to menu and select "Index"
3. User must look at index of individual photos
4. User must select each image individually to delete
5. All selected images can be deleted at the same time

-------

The accidental photos were upside down, but presumably the menu settings for light etc. weren't changed from the last photo she took, as that would have required her to do so deliberately.

Not sure what she would have seen before the camera was bleached and washed, but no matter what she could or couldn't see, she had to have known the photos were taken after she began her attack, and that they were accidental. And given that they were accidental and represented the (timed) beginning and end of her slaughter of Travis, I can easily imagine they actually caught her attention more than the shower photos she likely did intend to delete as quickly as possible.

I think Flores surprised her with the news the camera and images had survived, but I don't think she was surprised about the accidental photos, nor especially worried about them, at least, not concerned enough to deviate from her standard first impulse, which is to lie, lie, lie, inconsistency of the lies no matter because more lies will do later on if need be.

But that list doesn't say she has to look at all the photos she's deleting, just that she has to look at one. And then she's doing a multiple selection from the index.

 

[salberg7]

I am thinking that while she was deleting those murder pics she was probably deleting very systematically as she needed to get out of Travis' house & in the throes of euphoria/break from reality post murder chaos. I guess she deleted right after the murder, or after the clean up?
Agreed she probably parked on that off road Bryce. So happy you went and did a re-con on Travis' neighborhood so we can realize places and occurances in more "real time".
Poor Travis and what occurred in that house! He didn't know he had evil incarnate in his home. She needs to be locked up forever. Dangerous.

 

[geevee]

Hey Hope, have you read through the appellate court decision overturning the Hemy Neuman conviction? I haven't seen the document but in the linked article below this is stated:

"In a 6-1 ruling, the majority of the justices agreed with Neuman's attorneys that DeKalb County Superior Court Judge Gregory Adams should have never admitted into evidence notes from two medical experts who examined Neuman.

“Because the trial court erred in admitting evidence, which was protected by the attorney-client privilege, we now reverse,” Justice Carol Hunstein wrote for the majority."

http://www.cbs46.com/story/29322811/ga-supreme-court-overturns-hemy-neuman-murder-conviction

Do you think the LaV appeals stuff may not be over the trial publicity but over her notes being allowed into evidence?

 

[Hope4More]

David Lohr trial videos, day 2, 2 of 2, beginning around minute 35, Conner is on stand going over forensic evidence collected, JM is reviewing photos of TA's garage with her.

His Prius is parked on the left of the 2 car garage. In front of the car on the right is the door to the laundry room. A garage door opener is on the wall to the left of the door.

JM points out a bicycle...but the bike is hanging on the wall in front of TA's car. Unless that is not TA's bike or he has 2, not sure why Mimi thought the bike was being worked on, or even used recently.

But here's something that seems curious. The rear temporary license plate on TA's car isn't on straight. The right side is angled down. Doesn't seem like a TA thing to do, to not properly screw on a license plate. (Clear view of plate at minute 38.14).

I can imagine a plausible scenario in which the unscrewed his plate to put on her car (when she first arrived, in the dark, on the street), but not so much after she slaughtered him (she'd have to have backed her car into the driveway at the very least, and into the garage if she didn't want to risk being seen messing with license plates). And then there would be the little matter of somehow going undetected while driving hundreds of miles in AZ with an upside down rear license plate.

I do recall though, that JM did say at trial she took the rental car license plates off at TA's house. Maybe this is another instance of JM knowing more about the details than he presented in his spare narrative at trial.

 

[Hope4More]

View attachment 99567

Lunch in Houston before I head over to check on my parents

Guessing chicken fried steak and biscuits with gravy?

Had never even heard of chicken fried steak until my recent road trip, had never eaten biscuits with gravy, and didn't know Huddle Houses existed.

That all changed at the last breakfast DS and I had on the road, later in the morning of our final 900 mile, 18 odd hour drive, when we were just over the bridge from St. Louis, Missouri, so now technically or at least by tradition no longer in the west, lured to a breakfast at Huddle House (I couldn't pass up the opportunity, and dove for an exit when I saw a sign for Huddling), where on the menu I saw chicken and fried and steak all on one line naming a food I didn't know existed (passed on trying it, though, too early in the morning), as well as biscuits with gravy which I had heard of before but never tried, which was precisely the reason why with a bit of trepidation I ordered some, the hesitation resulting from my bewilderment why anyone would want to subvert the very meaning of biscuit ,which is to be light and flaky and to part readily for liberal applications of butter that melts into the steam of a biscuit just opened, but that retains it's flakiness even when so butter-drenched.

The biscuits arrived, 2 remarkably large and baked just right brown-topped specimens, served with an equally generous pitcher of gravy placed next to them on the plate. My DS and I eyed the biscuits for a time, as we ate our more familiar eggs and toast and bacon and discussed the road ahead and how to handle terrorist cats upon our return, but while there was still some room left for a culinary adventure we at long last decided to salute the southern route we hadn't travelled by needlessly flooding those perfectly fine biscuits in gravy and giving them a proper go, and so I picked up the pitcher and poured the gravy on until only the tops of the biscuits weren't submerged, and then we both picked up our forks at the same time, though we wondered if spoons were perhaps the more proper utensil, and we dug in.

And...they were good. They were very good indeed. They were good enough indeed that the only reason we didn't finish them off is that we had made the mistake of eating all our northern breakfast first, and hadn't left room for biscuits drowned in gravy, what now seems an entirely delightful alternative to fluffy light biscuits perfectly buttered.

 

[Hope4More]

Hey Hope, have you read through the appellate court decision overturning the Hemy Neuman conviction? I haven't seen the document but in the linked article below this is stated:

"In a 6-1 ruling, the majority of the justices agreed with Neuman's attorneys that DeKalb County Superior Court Judge Gregory Adams should have never admitted into evidence notes from two medical experts who examined Neuman.

“Because the trial court erred in admitting evidence, which was protected by the attorney-client privilege, we now reverse,” Justice Carol Hunstein wrote for the majority."

http://www.cbs46.com/story/29322811/ga-supreme-court-overturns-hemy-neuman-murder-conviction

Do you think the LaV appeals stuff may not be over the trial publicity but over her notes being allowed into evidence?

I'll read the Neuman SC decision, but my (non-lawyer) guess is that the legal circumstances about the respective notes are very different.

Alyce didn't prepare a report, no doubt per the DT's instruction. I believe her notes weren't work product, were not subject to confidentiality restrictions, and were subject to being turned over on discovery.

Nurmi in fact did not object to JM's request that Alyce's notes be turned over. What he did object to is JM's demand that her "entire file" be turned over, the difference seemingly being that the entire file included her unredacted notes as well.

Argument over the issue was held on September 27, 2012 (see the Superior Court Minute Entry on that date) after which JSS ruled that a copy of the unredacted notes had to be turned over to the State along with a copy of the redacted notes, and that the unredacted notes had to be marked to indicate which portions had been redacted (edited out). The unredacted notes were then to be sealed.

I'm pretty sure what JM wanted introduced is Alyce's notations about the discrepancies between what the had told Karp and herself about the lies (paper versus computer), discrepancies JM did bring up at trial during his cross of Alyce. A good guess is those discrepancies were what was missing from the redacted copy of the notes.

I'm not sure what legal basis her appellate attorneys would have for arguing that a DT's expert witness be allowed to alter her original notes. Alyce was given the opportunity during cross to explain the discrepancy (she said it was her own mistake, not the 's), which IMO was all JSS had to allow, if even that, to make the issue moot on appeals.

FWIW, JSS seems to have considered this issue of notes a straightforward decision. The minute entry doesn't include any legal reasoning or citations, which she seems to have invariably put on the record for all of her rulings she believed would be scrutinized during appeals.

 

[Hope4More]

Hey Hope, have you read through the appellate court decision overturning the Hemy Neuman conviction? I haven't seen the document but in the linked article below this is stated:

"In a 6-1 ruling, the majority of the justices agreed with Neuman's attorneys that DeKalb County Superior Court Judge Gregory Adams should have never admitted into evidence notes from two medical experts who examined Neuman.

“Because the trial court erred in admitting evidence, which was protected by the attorney-client privilege, we now reverse,” Justice Carol Hunstein wrote for the majority."

http://www.cbs46.com/story/29322811/ga-supreme-court-overturns-hemy-neuman-murder-conviction

Do you think the LaV appeals stuff may not be over the trial publicity but over her notes being allowed into evidence?

I read the SC decision. Not the same issue, though I suppose it's not impossible her attorneys might argue it is, somehow.

The key difference in Neuman's case is that the State subpoenaed notes from two DT experts who were NOT going to be called to testify at trial. They were consultants only, hired to provide the DT information about (alleged) Neuman's mental illness. Both recommended to the DT that they hire an expert to do a forensic psychological evaluation.

Their notes were not subject to discovery because neither was to testify, and no other DT expert was to use/refer to their notes in preparing their own reports or testimony.

The SC ruled the trial court erred in allowing the notes to be subpoenaed by the State at all. Further harm was done to the defendant because the State used the notes and made it seem like the DT was hiding evidence, and more harm still was done to the DT by being forced to call them to testify at trial.

Not the same at all. The closest equivalent, which notice did not happen, would perhaps have been if JM had tried to introduce Karp's report, which he wasn't allowed to do if he ever even made that request, and different still because the DT clearly stated pre-trial that they intended for Karp to testify, and that she was in fact crucial to their case.

 

[GigiG]

Guessing chicken fried steak and biscuits with gravy?

Had never even heard of chicken fried steak until my recent road trip, had never eaten biscuits with gravy, and didn't know Huddle Houses existed.

That all changed at the last breakfast DS and I had on the road, later in the morning of our final 900 mile, 18 odd hour drive, when we were just over the bridge from St. Louis, Missouri, so now technically or at least by tradition no longer in the west, lured to a breakfast at Huddle House (I couldn't pass up the opportunity, and dove for an exit when I saw a sign for Huddling), where on the menu I saw chicken and fried and steak all on one line naming a food I didn't know existed (passed on trying it, though, too early in the morning), as well as biscuits with gravy which I had heard of before but never tried, which was precisely the reason why with a bit of trepidation I ordered some, the hesitation resulting from my bewilderment why anyone would want to subvert the very meaning of biscuit ,which is to be light and flaky and to part readily for liberal applications of butter that melts into the steam of a biscuit just opened, but that retains it's flakiness even when so butter-drenched.

The biscuits arrived, 2 remarkably large and baked just right brown-topped specimens, served with an equally generous pitcher of gravy placed next to them on the plate. My DS and I eyed the biscuits for a time, as we ate our more familiar eggs and toast and bacon and discussed the road ahead and how to handle terrorist cats upon our return, but while there was still some room left for a culinary adventure we at long last decided to salute the southern route we hadn't travelled by needlessly flooding those perfectly fine biscuits in gravy and giving them a proper go, and so I picked up the pitcher and poured the gravy on until only the tops of the biscuits weren't submerged, and then we both picked up our forks at the same time, though we wondered if spoons were perhaps the more proper utensil, and we dug in.

And...they were good. They were very good indeed. They were good enough indeed that the only reason we didn't finish them off is that we had made the mistake of eating all our northern breakfast first, and hadn't left room for biscuits drowned in gravy, what now seems an entirely delightful alternative to fluffy light biscuits perfectly buttered.

BBM

I've never had chicken fried steak either, and I'm still trying to wrap my head around that concept. Why would you want to fry a perfectly good steak? I'm guessing it's the kind of steak they use for steak and cheese subs?

Anyway, it reminded me of the (caesarean) birth of my first child. My husband, who had worked in restaurants all his life, very sweetly decided to make me a steak dinner. Hooray, right?

NOT!! What he served me was a very nice, very expensive steak that he cooked in the MICROWAVE!!! Obviously, it was totally gross.

That was contemporaneous (hahaha) with my mother coming to visit and help us out. By way of "helping," she rearranging my kitchen drawers and cabinets! Because who wouldn't want to painfully and gingerly walk down a flight of stairs only to not be able to find where anything is in their own kitchen?

By the time my second child was due, I realized I had to lay down some rules. Needless to say, they included limited visits from grandma (she's a lovely person, but was never very maternal or good in the kitchen, so I tend to think she was more than okay by being relieved from the duty), and no food that wasn't prepared by someone who knows what they're doing.