Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #8

[geevee]

Felon did not get het way...yah! Must be having a hissy fit in her cell. Prison must be on alert!

I had the same mental image Josie, gnashing her teeth and ranting aloud about who she'll file her next complaint/suit against. Go for it girly, we'll be waiting to dissect and refute every single point.

 

[geevee]

I have a copy of the COA's ruling.

First ORDER: denied the motion to seal. "..the current request is legally insufficient to overcome the strong presumption in favor of public access."

Second ORDER: "..appellant may file a motion under seal on or before June 5, 2018, detailing those portions of the brief that appellant believes should be sealed "to avoid the infliction of substantial and irreparable private or public harm," or because recognition of the interests of privacy or confidentiality outweigh the general policy of open access."

Translation: The COA is calling 's attorneys' bluff. They're going to have to either make a case for "substantial and irreparable harm" that I doubt very much can be made to the Court's satisfaction, or run with an argument that maintaining the privacy of anonymous witnesses outweighs the public's right to know who testified at a public trial to which we are constitutionally guaranteed an invitation.


Redactions of witness names, perhaps, but not entire sections relating to their testimony or alleged threats against them is still most likely, IMO.

You. Are. Awesome. Thanks for sharing and translating, next week can't come soon enough.

 

[folieadeuxnola]

Jodi Arias request for court secrecy in upcoming appeal is DENIED

 

[pocketaccent]

This post really touched me, Hope4More. It is abundantly clear that this case has gripped you. Many others have been (and still are) fascinated by what happened. Despite reaching maximum Arias saturation point a while ago your husband listened and made an assessment. As much as you appreciate his input it must be frustrating to not be able to discuss this as much as you'd like. Websleuths provides that

There have been areas we have clashed on. Fewer than it might have appeared sometimes. Yet I am struck by the sheer volume that you write and how much work put in. Look at the books available on Amazon. Apart from those from well knows players most are poor. Have you considered doing something like that? There appears to be a gap that is not being filled on this subject. People on this forum have outstanding knowledge of the details. That kind of detail is lacking in books out there. Buy your husband a treat from the profits!

Yes! Please consider writing a book Hope4More!
Maybe write the book like how Jane Eyre was written. I = the . The book would be chilling. How would she describe Nurmi or JM? Oh my...

 

[pocketaccent]

TA- and I am touched and beyond that by every last thing you just wrote.
I'm going to exercise unusual restraint and not spit out what are a number of very personal reasons for my interest in this case that for me has always been about Travis, not the .

My interest in discusion of the factual & subjective aspects of the case has actually been quenched 99% of the time by the wonderful & thoughtful & insightful debates and conversations we've had here for all these years. I've typically called on DH to listen and weigh in only when I've doubted the validity of my own analysis of this or that. Which, true enough, for my DH has been an insufferably huge number of occasions, lol.

There are also personal reasons entirely unrelated to anything about the case that have kept me engaged, on and off, over the past year or so, but for the most part, my interest has been almost entirely focused on her appeals, because I've never dissected the appellate process in any case I've ever followed. It's been and continues to be a great learning experience about the legal process, one of my chief intellectual interests.

As for writing a book. I'm honored that you think I could do that. I've joked to my DH -but it's also accurate- that I have put as much time & effort over the years on this as I would have in writing a PhD dissertation. And I agree that while other books have been written about the , Travis, and/or the trial, none have been as comprehensive as the collective product of our discussions & conclusions here on WS.

Even if I were capable of writing a book and seeing that project through to completion (not sure I could), and even if I was willing to capitalize on the work here we have ALL done (not sure I'm ok with that), I guess I have my doubts about whether or not there really would be an audience for such a book.

Based in part by the huge drop-off in trialwatchers between trial one & PP2, I'm thinking that many or even most of the folks who first tuned in later tuned out when the live salacious spectacle was turned off. Somehow I doubt they would tune back in for yet one more book, especially one as nerdy as the only kind of book I can imagine myself writing.

I think JM wrote the book hard core trial watchers wanted to read. Though.....I know I wished he had (though I knew he wouldn't) included a deep dive into her manipulations & torment of Travis.

And....what remains as true now as it was when we first began our own deep-dive is that we simply don't have access to all the evidence. I well remember how much my certainties and perspectives kept changing when just one batch of evidence- the texts- were released, one month at a time.

Imagine, for example, what is contained in the full email record of TA- exchanges (have seen but a few), much less of the full record of emails between TAs and friends that contain discussions about the (drooling ).

And, BTW, about our disagreeing on whatever points along the way. I'm pretty certain that I've never held a consistent view/opinion on any significant aspect of any part of this case, lol. If you look hard & long enough, you'll no doubt find posts of mine in which I agree with you on every point.
,

By Hope4More
"Even if I were capable of writing a book and seeing that project through to completion (not sure I could), and even if I was willing to capitalize on the work here we have ALL done (not sure I'm ok with that), I guess I have my doubts about whether or not there really would be an audience for such a book."
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-I know you are more than capable.

-We know you considered every little aspects of this case including poster's opinions and thoughts, even the most ridiculous ones at times, then, you dissected them and analyzed them in order to look through your kaleidoscope. The kaleidoscope belongs to you.

-At times, computers or cell phones become slow so we reset/restart and like magic, we get bombarded with text messages and emails, etc. A tantalizing book will serve as a reset button.

 

[RickshawFan]

That girl is whacked. She's too wrong about some details & too unbelievable about others to be taken seriously, IMO.

PS. Deanna moved back to CA from Mesa in early-mid April.

will likely not have known that, for the same reason she wasn't updated on TA's new roommate. She could have staked out Deanna's Mesa house in her ignorance.

Where in CA did Deanna go, incidentally? Anywhere might have staked her out, either coming or going?

 

[RickshawFan]

I kinda wanted to see what pencil and mascara tattoos looked like but the links in the article are messed up.

Lisa was well out of the picture by June, but this chick will (apparently) wear ' name around her ankle for eternity. Credibility...yeah.

I got to see them! On Youtube? I have a feeling made the one with her name on it the biggest, most florid, and most conspicuous.

 

[RickshawFan]

********

-Begins with small talk
-JA wants to see photos. DF says 'nope, no more. Which do you want to see?'
-JA says 'the photos of after everything'. Keeps begging, DF refuses.
-DF asks 'Was he expecting you?' She says 'He wanted me to come', 'I told him I was going to Utah'
*******

Maria.....

 

[RickshawFan]

One more item:
In the 2011 confiscated magazine, the wrote phone number of Mark Stanoch, ABC producer who interviewed her on July 2009, and Sep 2009, and that the interview was excellent. She seemed to be requesting the recipient to call that guy to find out what she had told him back then.

So the was already busy peddling the pedo lies in 2009.

She might have just thought she could have said something that might be useful for whatever scheme she was cooking up.

OR

She might have thought the prosecutor's team might dig out those old tapes, and she'd want to know what was on them so she couldn't be blindsided.

 

[RickshawFan]

So accurately and beautifully written about Deanna, Rickshaw!

I get the feeling the sort of pitied Lisa and all the other girls as she was confident of her manipulation skill to rid them from T's life. Strong Deanna sure was impossible to manipulate though. The verbally and in various written forms, said numerous disparaging remarks about Deanna, one of them even appeared in one of the pedo letters.

I agree, we really don't know what she did on June 4th, except the lies she told. I really believe it is not too far fetched to speculate that she premeditated to kill both.

knew somewhere that she couldn't compete with Deanna's heart. There was nothing she could do—short of eradicating her—that would have satisfied . She was still at it at trial: all that hideous onslaught did was warm pretty much everyone to the loveliness of Deanna.

 

[Colie]

She might have just thought she could have said something that might be useful for whatever scheme she was cooking up.

OR

She might have thought the prosecutor's team might dig out those old tapes, and she'd want to know what was on them so she couldn't be blindsided.

funny thing is right before 2013 trial Beth Karas was sitting in a room waiting for the inmate interview when Attorney's stepped into stop it.

 

[RickshawFan]

I forgot about that. She moved to Riverside, CA, her hometown I believe.

BTW Riverside is about one hour away from Pasadena. Located in the same direction to Mesa. She could have had easily stopped by on the way to Mesa. Just a short detour away from 10 Freeway.

My thought exactly.

She claimed she arrived in Mesa at TA's before sunrise because if she arrived in the afternoon—per several theories—she otherwise couldn't explain what she did in the extra hours. Riverside.... Would she have known where Deanna lived? She could have found out from another LDS-er?

 

[RickshawFan]

******
As for writing a book. I'm honored that you think I could do that. I've joked to my DH -but it's also accurate- that I have put as much time & effort over the years on this as I would have in writing a PhD dissertation. And I agree that while other books have been written about the , Travis, and/or the trial, none have been as comprehensive as the collective product of our discussions & conclusions here on WS.

Even if I were capable of writing a book and seeing that project through to completion (not sure I could), and even if I was willing to capitalize on the work here we have ALL done (not sure I'm ok with that), I guess I have my doubts about whether or not there really would be an audience for such a book.

******
,

This just begs the question. Why don't you just turn all that writing into a dissertation? If not an audience, you'd get a gold-tasseled pillow for your head, a voluminous gown in colors you wouldn't otherwise be caught dead in, a thingy called a hood that wouldn't really work for anyone's head, and JM's book in the capacious pocket.

You'd have to take classes? Ahaha! I believe if you get your Ph.D. at Oxbridge (Oxford and Cambridge), all you do is write the diss, no courses. I'll bet there are all kinds of other EU universities with that track as well.

Title: "A sociological study of the sleuthing community in the age of the internet". Then you gotta have an endless subtitle. "Demographics, pathology, context, and speculation in the case of State vs. Arias."

 

[RickshawFan]

Yep and yes. Perhaps the single best strategic decision Flores made was to lie to the that the camera had been destroyed.

***

And they probably left at the jail in Yreka on purpose for an extended length of time before extraditing her ("paperwork for a special gal", ya know) because she kept spouting evidence (e.g. in the TV interviews).

I wonder what else she spouted during the Yreka jail days? She was there for a few months, no? Even though she didn't object to extradition?

 

[RickshawFan]

More dissertation titles, in case you didn’t like that one.

Law and the amateur detective: justice and judicial witness in the case of State vs. Arias.

An approach to the real: truth, evidence, speculation and sleuthing on the web in the case of State vs Arias.

The truth be told: collaboration and persistence in the evolution of a master internet sleuth and the case of State vs Arias.

 

[salberg7]

Wasn't Clark the one who "inadvertently" handed over all her working documentation with to JM?

This could be good.....

Revenge, much?

That was one of the killer’s public defenders way back before Nurmi & Wilmott were assigned. This “Clark” is the attorney suing Nurmi for his book proceeds, I think.

 

[salberg7]

PocketAccent "A few weeks ago when I was focusing on the pre-murder pedo letter, I re-watched interrogation videos to look for any signs of it during the interrogation."

I'd recommend anyone new to this case to watch these videos. They are fascinating, particularly the exchanges with Detective Flores. It's clear from these tapes that Arias was absolutely convinced she had created the perfect alibi. She was crazily confident that she had also excluded herself on the basis of having no motive. Her arrogance takes some serious dents as she begins to understand that the perfect murder and alibi has already been shattered by Det Flores and the evidence. The tapes demonstrate her calculations and miscalculations regarding finding a new story.

I too think those interrogation tapes are quite fascinating. I have watched them several times. The killer tries every trick in the book to get information from Flores and you can see her change like a chameleon according to his responses.
She tries to flirt with Flores (when she asks him what caliber his gun was), tried & tried to get him to show her the pictures from Travis’ camera, cries like a little girl (telling the “ninja” story, etc. What was fascinating was how she tried to explain why those pics could have incorrect dates ( SIM cards switched). Such a liar!
When Flores showed her a nude picture of herself she has the nerve to say “well it LOOKS like me”.
There was one time during the interrogation where I thought she was actually going to confess. But that thought was quickly abandoned.

 

[salberg7]

I hope that every single lie she told about Travis haunts her every day and every minute of her life.
Unfortunately the killer would have to have a conscience & the ability to “feel” anything for this to occur. I ‘m sure she still feels like Travis deserves to die for shunning herThe killer is evil to the core.

 

[Hope4More]

’S COA APPEAL,

SOME LINKS RELATING TO ONE OF THEIR MOST LIKELY ARGUMENTS: THAT EXCESSIVE PUBLICITY LED TO INTIMIDATION OF MITIGATION WITNESSES, THUS DENYING THE HER CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO “FULL MITIGATION”

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1. Sealed Evidentiary hearing, October 6, 2014.

Start at 38:00. Prosecutor is intimating prospective mitigation witnesses (denying full mitigation); discussion is about Dr. Geffner and Liar McGee.


Start around 45:00. Wilmott: McGee (and his family) have been threatened and he feels too intimidated to appear in court; doesn’t have screenshots of any of those alleged threats (made on Justice4Travis site) with her but will submit them to JSS later for filing.


Start around 51:00. Nurmi explicitly links JSS rulings on PR to excessive publicity to witnesses being harassed and intimidated to denial of ’s right to full mitigation in DP case.


Start around 53:00. JM says he believes Nurmi’s argument that witnesses, including Marc McGee, are too scared to testify (part of another motion to dismiss) is “made for appeals purposes.”


He mentions “tweets” between MDLR and Michael Kieffer and says that MDLR told Kieffer that the DT’s motions relating to threats to witnesses were being filed for strategic purposes (to ensure the issue of witness intimidation could be raised during appeals). (JM attached those “tweets” to a motion he filed, so they are included in the trial record. )


Also during this hearing: Nurmi requests and JSS grants a sealed hearing to take place to hear/rule on Nurmi’s arguments why can’t receive a full mitigation because of witness intimidation.


Included in that Motion are the names of witnesses Nurmi claims felt too intimidated to testify, and what their testimony “would have been.” Marc McGee was on that list, and Nurmi lays out what Marc McGee’s testimony “would have been”: that Travis was sexually abused as a child; that he stored child on the Bishop’s computer.


Note: we already know about these and other incredibly vile lies by told by Marc McGee, because those lies--and others by other anonymous witnesses afraid of being destroyed on the stand by JM--came in during PP2 via “expert” testimony.


Whatever Nurmi argued in the sealed hearing JSS granted on this date (10/6/2014), it is likely he used as predicate JSS’s (sealed) ruling on November 14, 2013. That ruling sealed the electronic record for the duration of PP2, a ruling made because JSS apparently accepted Nurmi’s argument that public access to ANY pretrial proceedings and motions would prejudice the ’s rights.


Nurmi referred to JSS’s 11/14/2013 ruling while arguing in front of the COA about the sealing of court, and again, after the COA ordered JSS to reopen court, when he complained, bitterly, to JSS that she seemed to be backtracking on her rulings of that date.
------------------------------------------------------

2. COA hearing on the sealing of court for ’s testimony

Begin around 9:45. Nurmi argues why the Court should be sealed: he explicitly blames excessive publicity on JSS not ruling in his favor at the beginning of trial, then links that publicity to threats and thwarted mitigation.


Highlight: Judge Howe telling Nurmi to put on his big boy spidies about those alleged “threats” being made against him.

-------------------------------------------------
3. COA written ruling ordering JSS to open the courtroom for ’s testimony


http://cdn-static.wildabouttrial.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/CourtOfAppeals.pdf

(Clues about how the COA might respond --again-to attorneys' arguments about publicity and intimidation and the like).
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4. Judge Stephens' denial of the DT's request to dismiss DP (issued on January 14, 2015)

Lists many (perhaps most) of the issues Nurmi wanted to preserve for appeal.

JSS's full ruling: http://media2.abc15.com/html/pdf/AriasJan14motion.pdf

--------------------------------------

 

[Hope4More]

funny thing is right before 2013 trial Beth Karas was sitting in a room waiting for the inmate interview when Attorney's stepped into stop it.

Hmm. I didn't know this. Too bad she didn't give this interview too. I'm very willing to bet she wanted the interview so she could peddle her pedo lie and those forged letters that had been excluded from evidence.

Her default was to have her mother take 2 of the letters to the National Enquirer in the hopes of having them published (in January 2013, right after trial began, IIRC).