Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #8

[Deleted member 122533]

Freudianslip, the narrative Arias and her defence team tried to spin was the dominant one, I agree, in the beginning. Juan Martinez unpicked this cynical rhetoric and showed how loved Travis was. This young man's great qualities emerged through Juan's brilliant exposure of Arias' lies. Is it really that shocking to most adults that people have sex? Or sexual fantasies? Or phone sex? No. The context was what surprised and shocked initially - due to the religious 'purity' associations. Hypocrisy was the shocker - never the sex - to me. The sex tapes exposed Arias' eagerness to participate and even set up scenarios. The vast majority of the public were against Arias by the time of the verdict. She is hated. Nothing she said detracted from the love Travis' family and true friends have for him. Just as Detective Flores indicated in the interviews - none of that stuff was that important. What mattered was the loss of Travis Alexander. Her 'reputation' is the one that will never recover. She is damned forever.

 

[freudianslip]

Freudianslip, the narrative Arias and her defence team tried to spin was the dominant one, I agree, in the beginning. Juan Martinez unpicked this cynical rhetoric and showed how loved Travis was. This young man's great qualities emerged through Juan's brilliant exposure of Arias' lies. Is it really that shocking to most adults that people have sex? Or sexual fantasies? Or phone sex? No. The context was what surprised and shocked initially - due to the religious 'purity' associations. Hypocrisy was the shocker - never the sex - to me. The sex tapes exposed Arias' eagerness to participate and even set up scenarios. The vast majority of the public were against Arias by the time of the verdict. She is hated. Nothing she said detracted from the love Travis' family and true friends have for him. Just as Detective Flores indicated in the interviews - none of that stuff was that important. What mattered was the loss of Travis Alexander. Her 'reputation' is the one that will never recover. She is damned forever.

It is true for trial followers, but I think the amount of wild stories she told about their supposed sexual encounters blurred the reality and left a lasting false impression.
FWIW I don't post because it takes me forever to write in English, but I wrote two blog posts in French during the trials. Every once in a while, there is a spike in the number of views from countries around the world. It is always immediately after the airing of the Dirty Little Secrets movie on French television. Sadly, even though made the cover of Paris Match , there isn't much else about this case for non-English speakers.

 

[Hope4More]

Salberg7: It was easier for me to type up a single reply to your multiple posts , rather than to quote, etc, from them here...


Salberg—why did I feel so angry reading what your post? First: I did get angry, and I apologize for my vehemence in responding to you. Why did I feel that way? In no small part, because, as I said a little bit ago, I’ve been so deeply immersed again in the personal, of what was Travis and his daily life (from what can be down), the first time in several years, and as I said, being here again makes me emotional.


Putting emotion aside, though, I still very much disagree with several (not all) of your characterizations of Travis.

You said : “I never said he used women.”

You didn’t? This is what you said that I was responding to:


"He went through women like chicklets.”


“He really didn’t have a long attention span with women- always on to the next one.”

“He was a player, as Skye & Chris said.”

“I think that, however weird, they had a bond of some kind in the beginning but he lost interest, true to form for Travis.”



I disagree with each of those points. I disagree because I think they are factually inaccurate, and I disagree because I think they disregard timeline and, especially, emotional context.


--------------

You said: “He was no shrinking violet either.”


I don’t think he was either, but am not sure if we’re using the term in the same way. Are you saying that Travis was able to confront other people in his life, including women and GF’s, so why did he not do so with the , and cut her off entirely?

You said: “How did Travis “end” their relationship? He didn’t. “


The relationship between them I referred to was their “official” relationship (such a sophomoric term), in late winter/early spring 2007, which Travis did end.

One measure of how deeply the had manipulated Travis this early on (and even earlier) was that he seemed incapable of seeing/processing MANY red flags about the .

On the other hand, IMO it is a measure of how relatively intact his sense of self-preservation was at that point, that he not only ended the relationship, but adamantly objected to having her move anywhere near him. Several of TA’s friends have described at least one weekend long, pitched and angry and despairing battle by phone with her to in which he told her repeatedly and very plainly, I DO NOT WANT YOU HERE.


You said: “They still traveled together, spoke on the phone, lent/borrowed money, he deposited money in her bank accounts, she kept cleaning his house, so no he didn’t “end” their relationship.”


Succinctly: Travis did not call the arrangements /situation they had a relationship. Even the did not call whatever was going on a relationship. Travis not only told the he wanted to move on and date other women, he told her he wanted to find a wife, then proceeded to go looking for one and indeed, found Lisa, the latter fact of the matter IMO having no insignificant connection to the timing of the ’s arrival in Mesa.


You said: Travis did drop several sexual in nature texts to various women pretty regularly. He texted of wanting to “get naked” with one. He wasn’t afraid to be himself with his friends.


Travis flirted. He had a reputation for being a flirt. He enjoyed that reputation. Travis flirt texted just-friends, with women he respected and who he knew were happily married; he even flirt-texted women about " wanting to make babies with them." And as Taylor has explained, the baby-making type of flirt-texts by Travis were typical examples of Travis JOKING.


The flirt-texting did seem to evolve into what occasionally bordered or altogether crossed into sexting. For me, what is significant about the “sexual in nature” texts isn’t related to the fact Travis liked sex, had sex, liked to talk about sex, whatever else the heck about sex---it is about the timing of those texts.

I can’t recall any even remotely “explicit” sexualized texts sent or received by Travis before the went on her relentless campaign for sex in January 2008. That timing matters, because IMO it is context for what was happening with Travis emotionally.


You said: “But thus you can see how Travis’ friends reacted to her based on what Travis told them. And all of them told him to stop any interaction with her. Facing all the ridicule, why didn’t he stop? He gave her his BMW during this time.”


To reply to the least of those points: Travis didn’t give her the BTW. She blew it up, he didn’t have the money to repair it….etc. There are literally pages and pages of posts here dissecting all things BMW, lol.

As to your larger point- WHY DIDN’T HE STOP? Well, for many who once were here. and perhaps some who still are, that is very much one of the most central and perplexing and maddening and distressing and inexplicable questions of the whole enchilada. And definitely one of the most controversial of them all.

 

[Hatfield]

It is true for trial followers, but I think the amount of wild stories she told about their supposed sexual encounters blurred the reality and left a lasting false impression.
FWIW I don't post because it takes me forever to write in English, but I wrote two blog posts in French during the trials. Every once in a while, there is a spike in the number of views from countries around the world. It is always immediately after the airing of the Dirty Little Secrets movie on French television. Sadly, even though made the cover of Paris Match , there isn't much else about this case for non-English speakers.

JMO
I agree. For a lot of people that did not follow the case closely I agree they got manipulated by JA's accusations.
I think some of the reason that happened is the murder was so outrageous with all the stab wounds that some people have a tendency to think a victim must have done something to bring it on.

For those of us that closely watched the trial and read about and saw all the evidence we learned what a true physchopath is really like and how they can be so terribly manipulative. She scared me at times just watching her in the courtroom. I was concerned for the safety of anyone sitting around her.

JMO but I think I even spotted her sneaking pens or pencils right in the courtroom and swallowing a pill given to her by someone that could have been much more than just an aspirin or advil. After really studying her from numerous witness accounts and watching her myself during the trials, she was one of the most scariest persons I have ever witnessed. I would put nothing past her. Nothing. Especially her saying false things about people for her own benefit. What a ride she took us on during the trials.

 

[salberg7]

You know, Trial Watcher, I never thought about the religious aspect making Travis a “nervous wreck” about finding a wife....when he turned 30 he would be kicked out of his singles ward. This helps me make sense of his behavior a lot more.
Really, for a 30 year old to be having sex is quite normal and now I see that guilt imposed by Mormonism. Not having those religious restrictions, they never had an impact on me.
And yes he was a kind fellow with so much to offer and was just at the cusp of figuring out life.
The killer - she can stay where she is and I hope she never gets out.

 

[Hope4More]

TrialWatcher:

Actually, I think everyone here, myself included, with very few exceptions, including my own, does a remarkably good job of disagreeing agreeably, even when the points of disagreement are closely held.

About sex on the 4th. As I've said to you both on and off the board, whatever my own (changing) thoughts on that, I don't think there was or is anything "odd" or problematic or wrong about having doubts that they did.

The folks who remain entirely and unwaveringly positive they did not are in the minority here, but there are comparable minorities believing the same thing on every single SM site on which this trial has been discussed.

The reasons for that collective disbelief vary. Some objections expressed seem based as much on an emotional rejection of the thought of "sex after everything that happened" as anything else, that basis for objection, IMO, being pretty forthrightly acknowledged by those doing the objecting.

The core argument (my read of it, anyway) against believing sex on that day is completely rational, understandable, and compelling, imo, and I have the utmost respect for the reasoning of the posters here who have made the argument:

The manipulated & manufactured "evidence," especially digital/online evidence. The self-confessed fact of the matter is that JM didn't feel the need or desire to go rabbit-hole diving to uncover or to sort much of that out, including, FGS, the Helio phone itself and what was on it.

Even after literally hundreds of hours spent sleuthing texts & journals, I couldn't identify with certainty each and every text or journal entry that was tampered with in whatever fashion.

In any case, what's wrong with disagreeing & discussing what we don't agree upon? As I've said here many times, it's my most favorite sport.

 

[salberg7]

H4M it’s all good. We can agree to disagree.

I guess what gets me is how he treated Lisa. She was an impressionable 19 year old. They dated,& broke up because of . He took trips with his killer while dating Lisa. He lied to Lisa about it too.
They got together again (remember Lisa has said he was grabbing her butt & she told him she didn’t like it and to stop?) and broke up for good in December 2017. Yet Travis pined for her & brought his other friends into his despair asking for advice on how to get Lisa back, but was already on Mimi’s tail while still seeing his killer.
And that’s all good if it worked for him, but it didn’t!
There is nothing wrong with being a player nor doing the wild thing wherever or whomever he could get it. Nothing at all.
But now I see that his entire entourage was Mormon (thank you Trial Watcher) so this poor guy was inundated with guilt on all levels. All the while trying to do the right thing in his life & being quite successful at it. took advantage of this, as borderline personalities do. They zero in on weaknesses and are able to twist their prey in a web of lies so to speak, the victim has no idea thry’ve been conned.
knew it - Travis didn’t.

And I so so agree, Hatfield. scares the crap out of me. She was, and still is, dangerous. To me, she exudes evil. No other way to say it.

 

[Hope4More]

On Deanna, and commitment, and the fundamental decency & integrity of Travis Alexander...


I'm going to try to upload multiple photos of text that needs to be read in sequence (yes, I am being very bad , but I don't have the stamina to type all this up instead).
----

AARGH. Says each file is too large to upload? Each one is just a photo of what I pulled up my computer screen - the January 2007 email exchange between TA and the Hughes.

Am I going about uploading the wrong way somehow?

 

[geevee]

On Deanna, and commitment, and the fundamental decency & integrity of Travis Alexander...


I'm going to try to upload multiple photos of text that needs to be read in sequence (yes, I am being very bad , but I don't have the stamina to type all this up instead).
----

AARGH. Says each file is too large to upload? Each one is just a photo of what I pulled up my computer screen - the January 2007 email exchange between TA and the Hughes.

Am I going about uploading the wrong way somehow?

You have to make sure they have .jpg on the end of them, bitmap files are too big. Do you have MSPaint on your laptop? Just open each one in Paint (File/Open/choose pic), click File/Save As and choose ".jpeg picture" on the right as the file type and then Save. Then upload those here.

 

[Ktblair]

December 2017 texts are on Beth’s site. I am halfway through 97 pages of them. I think the was in Yreka that Christmas but haven’t gotten that far yet.

Geez,that's a book in itself lol

 

[Hope4More]

(Especially for you, Pocket).

I think I need to be done with this, again, and to put it away, again, so I'm going to stop doing the work of typing up and posting all the texts and journals and just make the point that struck me the weeks ago (?) when it first struck me.

Yes, of course by early 2008 Travis was feeling desperate about not being married. He was 30 years old, and the day he turned 31, in July 2008, he was going to be kicked out of the singles ward, and consigned to a ward designated for married couples & families. Exiled from the singles ward, he wouldn't have had the same opportunities to meet wife-prospects. More importantly, unmarried by 31 and exiled from the singles ward would have made Travis seem damaged goods. And most importantly, IMO, from Travis's perspective, not being married or almost married by 31 represented an unimaginable personal and spiritual failure.

IMO , believing Travis didn't have problems committing to precisely the kind of relationship required by his faith is just plain wrong. Travis himself said that he did, and I don't see a shred of evidence thst suggests otherwise.

I believe what he said he felt about Deanna, and I believe what his friends said about his genuine love for her and the anguish it caused him to not be able to commit to her. He was with her over six years, his longest and most meaningful relationship by far.

What would have happened had the not entered his life, precisely when Travis was beginning to try to understand the baggage from his past that was causing problems in his present?

Would he have been able to commit to Lisa, the first woman he chose to be involved with (leaving aside), and someone he expressed interest in marrying?

There is no way of knowing, but my guess is that no, he wouldn't have been able to commit to her ON THE TIME TABLE being demanded of him by his church.

What he wouldn't have had to deal with, though, was the torment of having his belief in himself shredded, and of being deliberately and systematically alienated from his most crucial support systems and sources of self-worth and self esteem, which most definitely included the Mormon church.

Had he not already been knocked off balance and struggling emotionally, as well as financially (another absolutely core aspect of how he evaluated himself and his worth), perhaps he would have seen his sudden and otherwise inexplicable certainty about finding The One (Mimi) for what it was- an escape route from committing to Lisa, a means of stepping back from the brink.

(That Travis never had any real feelings for Mimi IMO couldn't have been any more obvious, and that he didn't is something else Travis said quite plainly himself).

What April's journals and texts speak to, IMO, is this:

1. Travis was relieved the was gone

2. Almost as soon as the left, Travis was able to begin to regain perspective and sanity, and to begin to sort out what had happened to him over the months the had never let him alone enough to think or get straight.

3. The entire way through April, though, and on into May, at the very least, Travis simply did not believe the had deliberately done anything to hurt him for some or any purpose if her own.

When he told CL in March, at convention, that the was a better person than he was, he meant it. That's what he believed, because that is how much damage the had already done to him.

I cannot emphasize this enough, that this kind of thinking is what it looks like when someone has been so gaslighted and f-cked with emotionally they will swear that up is down and black is white. That's what happens when one has become too exhausted to fight back, and too uncertain any longer to trust one's own ability to know what is true. At some horrible point, it feels easier and safer to just concede the blackness of white. (And yes, as I have said once, long ago, and for that only once, I speak from personal experience about this).

(I'll finish this up later today)....

 

[Hope4More]

You have to make sure they have .jpg on the end of them, bitmap files are too big. Do you have MSPaint on your laptop? Just open each one in Paint (File/Open/choose pic), click File/Save As and choose ".jpeg picture" on the right as the file type and then Save. Then upload those here.

I hate to be so dense and slow about this, but right now I haven't been able to manage even getting the photos off my phone and on to my computer. I don't remember how I did that before, and right now I look at what you wrote and all I can see are references to pieces of the alphabet, connected in a language I don't speak.

Off and away from this too for awhile. Hugs & thanks, Sis.

 

[Hope4More]

In bits and pieces....

In terms of trying to understand what happened between Travis and the , IMO what any of us thinks about what was "normal" for a 30 year old man is, with all due respect, irrelevant.

What matters is what TRAVIS believed and felt.

Taylor, probably his closest male friend and someone he confided in about his emotions and his entanglements with women, has said Travis LOATHED himself for getting physical with the within weeks or so after she arrived in Mesa.

He repeatedly tried to get right with the Church, all the way from then until IMO the very day she slaughtered him.

That he failed himself isn't a revelation, or IMO, what is most relevant.

It occurred to me as I skimmed through and rewatched so much recently one of the ways related to sex I think she gas-lit him and tore him down.

SHE seems to have initiated most, close to all their sexual contact. Afterwards, when Travis was that much more torn down by his own feeling of having lacked control (his words) and guilt (my assumption), I'm guessing her way of completing her dismantling of him was to listen to his lament & guilt and to say sweetly, " I'm sorry too, Travis, I would have been content just to cuddle."

It's a line she later used at every opportunity to suggest it was Travis who was responsible for their physical "intimacy," and one she used against him, in texts, before she killed him. Check.

Placing the onus on Travis was a double whammy, because from his point of view, he was at least partially responsible for her spiritual well being: he failed her as well as himself each time they had sexual contact.

She forgave him every time, though, even if really she would really have been OK with cuddling, which made her the better person. Right?

---
None of this about sex, sadly, has anything to do with what I'm trying to say about April-June.

 

[pocketaccent]

(Especially for you, Pocket).

I think I need to be done with this, again, and to put it away, again, so I'm going to stop doing the work of typing up and posting all the texts and journals and just make the point that struck me the weeks ago (?) when it first struck me.

Yes, of course by early 2008 Travis was feeling desperate about not being married. He was 30 years old, and the day he turned 31, in July 2008, he was going to be kicked out of the singles ward, and consigned to a ward designated for married couples & families. Exiled from the singles ward, he wouldn't have had the same opportunities to meet wife-prospects. More importantly, unmarried by 31 and exiled from the singles ward would have made Travis seem damaged goods. And most importantly, IMO, from Travis's perspective, not being married or almost married by 31 represented an unimaginable personal and spiritual failure.

IMO , believing Travis didn't have problems committing to precisely the kind of relationship required by his faith is just plain wrong. Travis himself said that he did, and I don't see a shred of evidence thst suggests otherwise.

I believe what he said he felt about Deanna, and I believe what his friends said about his genuine love for her and the anguish it caused him to not be able to commit to her. He was with her over six years, his longest and most meaningful relationship by far.

What would have happened had the not entered his life, precisely when Travis was beginning to try to understand the baggage from his past that was causing problems in his present?

Would he have been able to commit to Lisa, the first woman he chose to be involved with (leaving aside), and someone he expressed interest in marrying?

There is no way of knowing, but my guess is that no, he wouldn't have been able to commit to her ON THE TIME TABLE being demanded of him by his church.

What he wouldn't have had to deal with, though, was the torment of having his belief in himself shredded, and of being deliberately and systematically alienated from his most crucial support systems and sources of self-worth and self esteem, which most definitely included the Mormon church.

Had he not already been knocked off balance and struggling emotionally, as well as financially (another absolutely core aspect of how he evaluated himself and his worth), perhaps he would have seen his sudden and otherwise inexplicable certainty about finding The One (Mimi) for what it was- an escape route from committing to Lisa, a means of stepping back from the brink.

(That Travis never had any real feelings for Mimi IMO couldn't have been any more obvious, and that he didn't is something else Travis said quite plainly himself).

What April's journals and texts speak to, IMO, is this:

1. Travis was relieved the was gone

2. Almost as soon as the left, Travis was able to begin to regain perspective and sanity, and to begin to sort out what had happened to him over the months the had never let him alone enough to think or get straight.

3. The entire way through April, though, and on into May, at the very least, Travis simply did not believe the had deliberately done anything to hurt him for some or any purpose if her own.

When he told CL in March, at convention, that the was a better person than he was, he meant it. That's what he believed, because that is how much damage the had already done to him.

I cannot emphasize this enough, that this kind of thinking is what it looks like when someone has been so gaslighted and f-cked with emotionally they will swear that up is down and black is white. That's what happens when one has become too exhausted to fight back, and too uncertain any longer to trust one's own ability to know what is true. At some horrible point, it feels easier and safer to just concede the blackness of white. (And yes, as I have said once, long ago, and for that only once, I speak from personal experience about this).

(I'll finish this up later today)....

This post is pure gold. Everything in it.

If I may comment on this part,though:

Hope4More: 'When he told CL in March, at convention, that the was a better person than he was, he meant it. That's what he believed, because that is how much damage the had already done to him.

I cannot emphasize this enough, that this kind of thinking is what it looks like when someone has been so gaslighted and f-cked with emotionally they will swear that up is down and black is white. That's what happens when one has become too exhausted to fight back, and too uncertain any longer to trust one's own ability to know what is true. At some horrible point, it feels easier and safer to just concede the blackness of white.'

May 26 chat, in many parts, reflects the above bolded paragraph.

'I loved someone that never existed', 'what I thought was real never even existed', 'I gave you anything I could I sacrificed everything I could...', 'I thought you were something that you were not', 'I talk tough and forgive, then you do it again, I lash you and forgive, you do something to make any sane person shun you', 'I'm in partial addicted to you.... I keep taking you back...', 'I can't keep up with this cycle, seriously I can't stand it, I'm just tired of all of this.'

Travis, at last seemed to realize black is black and that made the furious.

 

[Ktblair]

H

(Especially for you, Pocket).

I think I need to be done with this, again, and to put it away, again, so I'm going to stop doing the work of typing up and posting all the texts and journals and just make the point that struck me the weeks ago (?) when it first struck me.

Yes, of course by early 2008 Travis was feeling desperate about not being married. He was 30 years old, and the day he turned 31, in July 2008, he was going to be kicked out of the singles ward, and consigned to a ward designated for married couples & families. Exiled from the singles ward, he wouldn't have had the same opportunities to meet wife-prospects. More importantly, unmarried by 31 and exiled from the singles ward would have made Travis seem damaged goods. And most importantly, IMO, from Travis's perspective, not being married or almost married by 31 represented an unimaginable personal and spiritual failure.

IMO , believing Travis didn't have problems committing to precisely the kind of relationship required by his faith is just plain wrong. Travis himself said that he did, and I don't see a shred of evidence thst suggests otherwise.

I believe what he said he felt about Deanna, and I believe what his friends said about his genuine love for her and the anguish it caused him to not be able to commit to her. He was with her over six years, his longest and most meaningful relationship by far.

What would have happened had the not entered his life, precisely when Travis was beginning to try to understand the baggage from his past that was causing problems in his present?

Would he have been able to commit to Lisa, the first woman he chose to be involved with (leaving aside), and someone he expressed interest in marrying?

There is no way of knowing, but my guess is that no, he wouldn't have been able to commit to her ON THE TIME TABLE being demanded of him by his church.

What he wouldn't have had to deal with, though, was the torment of having his belief in himself shredded, and of being deliberately and systematically alienated from his most crucial support systems and sources of self-worth and self esteem, which most definitely included the Mormon church.

Had he not already been knocked off balance and struggling emotionally, as well as financially (another absolutely core aspect of how he evaluated himself and his worth), perhaps he would have seen his sudden and otherwise inexplicable certainty about finding The One (Mimi) for what it was- an escape route from committing to Lisa, a means of stepping back from the brink.

(That Travis never had any real feelings for Mimi IMO couldn't have been any more obvious, and that he didn't is something else Travis said quite plainly himself).

What April's journals and texts speak to, IMO, is this:

1. Travis was relieved the was gone

2. Almost as soon as the left, Travis was able to begin to regain perspective and sanity, and to begin to sort out what had happened to him over the months the had never let him alone enough to think or get straight.

3. The entire way through April, though, and on into May, at the very least, Travis simply did not believe the had deliberately done anything to hurt him for some or any purpose if her own.

When he told CL in March, at convention, that the was a better person than he was, he meant it. That's what he believed, because that is how much damage the had already done to him.

I cannot emphasize this enough, that this kind of thinking is what it looks like when someone has been so gaslighted and f-cked with emotionally they will swear that up is down and black is white. That's what happens when one has become too exhausted to fight back, and too uncertain any longer to trust one's own ability to know what is true. At some horrible point, it feels easier and safer to just concede the blackness of white. (And yes, as I have said once, long ago, and for that only once, I speak from personal experience about this).

(I'll finish this up later today)....

How heartbreaking

 

[pocketaccent]

Had he not already been knocked off balance and struggling emotionally, as well as financially (another absolutely core aspect of how he evaluated himself and his worth), perhaps he would have seen his sudden and otherwise inexplicable certainty about finding The One (Mimi) for what it was- an escape route from committing to Lisa, a means of stepping back from the brink.

I saw that very sudden change of course thing (from Lisa to Mimi, with very weak reasoning imo) during subscription to Beth's. I remember being so surprised and saying to myself WTH!

 

[Hope4More]

This post is pure gold. Everything in it.

If I may comment on this part,though:

Hope4More: 'When he told CL in March, at convention, that the was a better person than he was, he meant it. That's what he believed, because that is how much damage the had already done to him.

I cannot emphasize this enough, that this kind of thinking is what it looks like when someone has been so gaslighted and f-cked with emotionally they will swear that up is down and black is white. That's what happens when one has become too exhausted to fight back, and too uncertain any longer to trust one's own ability to know what is true. At some horrible point, it feels easier and safer to just concede the blackness of white.'

May 26 chat, in many parts, reflects the above bolded paragraph.

'I loved someone that never existed', 'what I thought was real never even existed', 'I gave you anything I could I sacrificed everything I could...', 'I thought you were something that you were not', 'I talk tough and forgive, then you do it again, I lash you and forgive, you do something to make any sane person shun you', 'I'm in partial addicted to you.... I keep taking you back...', 'I can't keep up with this cycle, seriously I can't stand it, I'm just tired of all of this.'

Travis, at last seemed to realize black is black and that made the furious.

YES! Even in just the handful of texts I've posted from April- and more on this subject followed in April & May, what he told her repeatedly was I AM NOT ANGRY WITH YOU, I am EXHAUSTED by your lies.

That distinction is absolutely crucial, though if I ever spit out what I've realized may be key to understanding that chat of the 26th and beyond, by the time of that chat, it wasn't the entire truth.

To finish this one thought though, the "cycle" Travis referred to during the chat was her lying to him and his " accepting" the lies, which only led to more lying and more "forgiving."

By the time of that chat, Travis thought he understood this cycle (he didn't). The basic truth that he'd realized by then though, was that he simply was not responsible for her lies.

Travis: "Don't you see? YOU are responsible for (what's wrong with your life)."

He had believed it was HIS failings that caused her so much spiritual pain and confusion that she acted out in so many strange and bad ways. He alluded to this in the handwritten note he sent her when he told her to put that time of her not being herself behind her, and to go back to being who she really was.

And yet, what he saw with increasing clarity, distance from him made her MORE intrusive and whacked, not less so, no matter that he tried to be supportive of her even after she left.

HER. Not him. And his understanding of at least that part of what had happened IMO caused no small part of the rage he felt on May 26.

 

[Deleted member 122533]

TrialWatcher:

In any case, what's wrong with disagreeing & discussing what we don't agree upon? As I've said here many times, it's my most favorite sport.

This quote from your post, I have no issue with, Hope

My recollection of the 'no sex on the day' minority is very different to yours. Some simply refused point blank to even discuss the evidence or answer questions. On a quality sleuthing forum, evidence does count. Theories around the camera and timestamps were debunked repeatedly. TexMex contributed greatly to strands of this - even calling up the camera company for precise details at one point. Yet the same theories continue to be put forward despite the solid court expert witness evidence and further information offered on this forum.

What interests me about your response is why people cling to such theories. That information is revealing. Perhaps you were prone to giving time to them as they dovetailed into your own analysis of Travis completely excluding Arias from his life? If only he had, Hope. In spite of every mad, insane thing she did, he always took her back. He said as much in his own words (which you place great importance on) in that notorious conversation in late May. Was his intention to keep her as much out of his life as possible? Yes, he wanted to move on and saw her as a problem (in his own words too). Ultimately, did Travis miscalculate that her love for him would stop her from doing anything to physically harm him? Sadly, yes. He made the mistake of continuing to text and speak to her, even after the sex tape. Even after the blackmail attempts. Even when she arrived at his home on that fateful last day.

 

[Hope4More]

TW- there are only so many times I can explain

This quote from your post, I have no issue with, Hope

My recollection of the 'no sex on the day' minority is very different to yours. Some simply refused point blank to even discuss the evidence or answer questions. On a quality sleuthing forum forum. evidence does count. Theories around the camera and timestamps were debunked repeatedly. TexMex contributed greatly to strands of this - even calling up the camera company for precise details at one point. Yet the same theories continue to be put forward despite the solid court expert witness evidence and further information offered on this forum.

What interests me about your response is why people cling to such theories. That information is revealing. Perhaps you were prone to giving time to them as they dovetailed into your own analysis of Travis completely excluding Arias from his life? If only he had, Hope. In spite of every mad, insane thing she did, he always took her back. He said as much in his own words (which you place great importance on) in that notorious conversation in late May. Was his intention to keep her as much out of his life as possible? Yes, he wanted to move on and saw her as a problem (in his own words too). Ultimately, did Travis miscalculate that her love for him would stop her from doing anything to physically harm him? Sadly, yes. He made the mistake of continuing to text and speak to her, even after the sex tape. Even after the blackmail attempts. Even when she arrived at his home on that fateful last day.

TW- there are only so many times and ways I can explain to you why I was- and still am- willing to listen to, think through, and even take for a ride the opinions and theories of others here , whether or not I begin or end with agreeing/accepting them.

I've used up all those times and ways, frankly, and just as frankly, I'm uncomfortable with you continuing to criticize other posters for what they choose to argue & how, and now, even the why of it.

With all due respect, then, it's probably best if I pass on replying to the other points you made.

 

[Deleted member 122533]

Succinctly: Travis did not call the arrangements /situation they had a relationship.

This is not factually correct, Hope. Travis actually called Arias his girlfriend on the sex tape. In his own words, we all heard it.

Salberg7's characterisation seems fair to me. Salberg7 is not claiming Travis did anything a normal guy of his age would not.

Succinctly: Travis was not a saint.

When Arias met Travis she was immediately immersed in the 'moral' narrative around Mormon men and relationships. Perhaps that was attractive to her as she may have seen it as easier to pin a man to marriage that way? Arias failed to take into consideration that offering sex so readily would exclude her from being marriage material.

Far from being irrelevant, Travis' could not meet the expectations and demands his church placed on him. Having Arias around allowed him to pursue the 'perfect' Mormon girl whilst having mutual 'dalliances' with Arias. Travis thought they had a mutual sex/friendship pact. That Arias bought the terms of this (because she appeared to). He knew that she was in love with him. Clearly, he wasn't with her. So, in that sense - it could be argued he used her. She used him - foolishly hoping she would find a way to gain ground - if only the women in between would go away. Morally, from a church perspective, they wee both hypocrites. So what? Many people cherry pick around faith or fail to meet their own standards. This does not detract from Arias' monstrous slaughter of a much loved young man. Nor does it make Travis that unusual amongst young men.