Sexual behavior - Merged and Closed

[BBB167893]

Where was that duct tape when Linda Arndt, the Boulder DETECTIVE, decided to move JonBenets body, further contaminating her body & evidence?

Basement.

Where was that piece of duct tape when Patsy threw herself over her daughters body?

Basement.

 

[Toltec]

Only Patsy's fibers were on JonBenet??? Was the statement the police gave John..."John, your shirt fibers were on JonBenet's vaginal area"...a lie?

Any of Burke's fibers on JonBenet?

Seems like the only fibers on JonBenet belonged to Patsy...wiith the exception of JAR's duvet cover. JAR was not in Boulder the night JonBenet died. That leaves only Patsy, whom I believe accidently killed her daughter.

JonBenet had a limited number of contacts/friends/family. She was only six years old and my guess was that she was not one to go places without adult supervision. Someone who had close and constant access to JonBenet molested her. Someone in her immediate famiily...or close friends like the White's, Fernies and Stines.

When was the last time the Fernie's had contact with JonBenet? The Stines? We know the last family friends she had contact with were the White's.

Let's go back to Christmas day. Who did JonBenet play with Christmas day? We know that she had no female friends over....just Burke's male friends. She sat on the floor outside Burke's room while Burke and his friends played Nintendo What about one of Burke's friends? Did they have their way with JonBenet while Patsy showered? Did one of the boys at the White home have their way with JonBenet?

If you recall, Patsy talked about a boy who was a little older than Burke come to their home. JonBenet had a crush on this boy. Patsy said that JonBenet would blush in his presence. She said she had to "keep an eye on JonBenet" when this boy was around.

Why would she say that?

 

[Ames]

If you recall, Patsy talked about a boy who was a little older than Burke come to their home. JonBenet had a crush on this boy. Patsy said that JonBenet would blush in his presence. She said she had to "keep an eye on JonBenet" when this boy was around.

Why would she say that?

IMO...to throw HIM under the bus, along with everybody else. Anything to throw suspicion onto someone other than herself or John.

 

[Show Me]

IMO...to throw HIM under the bus, along with everybody else. Anything to throw suspicion onto someone other than herself or John.

Yeah lots of 10 year old write ransom notes...look at the spelling of business and possession!

 

[Ames]

Yeah lots of 10 year old write ransom notes...look at the spelling of business and possession!

HA HA...true! The Ramsey's would lead everyone to believe that Keebler Elves came in, using their elfin magic and killed JB, if they thought that people would believe it. (IMO)

 

[coloradokares]

I've had an interesting morning. First of all, I went to CTV to look up AngryWolf's posts and to see what if any interaction I'd had with him/her there. I hadn't realised that the JonBenet forum at CTV had moved or been renamed to Crimelibrary.

Anyway, I digress. I couldn't find any posts by Angrywolf other than a few quoted posts which other members had responded to. Angrywolf's posts appear to have been deleted as has his/her membership. Ah well....

I did however find this post made last night at John Douglas' forum by AngryWolf:-

http://www.johndouglasmindhunter.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=32529#32529

It's easy to see how there's so much misinformation out there about this case when people misrepresent, misconstrue or simply miscomprehend what they read.

"Violate protocol"? Wow. What was actually written was this:-

"One person said there was no stungun." WOW! What was actually written was this:-


Saying that the stungun is not a fact is not the same as stating that there was no stungun! My statement is factual. It has not been proved beyond any scientific doubt that a stungun was used.


Rainsong responded to the above post at the JD Forum by saying this:-

http://www.johndouglasmindhunter.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=32529#32529


Eh, nooooo. What was actually posted was (and I repeat):-

Just clearing up the spin

I don't remember an angrywolf over there. Its possible/probable its another poster posting with a different hat over there than here. .....

 

[goddess]

Forgive me if this is redundant.

Has anyone considered the possibility the doctor visits, esp if vaginal exams were involved, were a cover so to speak or a prep for some sort of sexual abuse?

Hypothetically, I suppose.

 

[Toltec]

Forgive me if this is redundant.

Has anyone considered the possibility the doctor visits, esp if vaginal exams were involved, were a cover so to speak or a prep for some sort of sexual abuse?

Hypothetically, I suppose.

What vaginal exams? JonBenet has never had invasive vaginal exams...just visual exams when she suffered from diaper rash/vaginitis.

Patsy applied Desitin when JonBenet complained of itching. Typical for a bed wetter...daytime wetter. The moisture from her panties caused the irritations JonBenet suffered.

The molestation JonBenet experienced is separate from the rashes she suffered. JonBenet's hymen was torn which is an indication of penetration.

My belief is that Dr. Beuf suspected nothing but what he diagnosed. Rich or not, friends or not, he would have intervened if he suspected child abuse. If not, then I believe his nurses would have.

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

that sounds like someone who is convinced the Ramseys killed Jon Bent..something someone like that would say....and not someone concerned with proof or evidence... Results of exams like that are used in sexual abuse cases every day...so why would anybody risk going to the doctor who was abusing their own child ? Yes I read where the doctor allegedly says he never did an internal exam. But how could the parents know the doctor wouldn't do one if they were molesting Jon Benet.
I find it funny....someone wants to doubt I exist ? Angrywolf is one of my names..I have had others...McHighlander was one.......Jay wants to doubt me..well go ahead Jay.Doubt away...if you want to make this personal then enjoy yourself...You seem to want to get all emotional over this.I don't believe this has to do with you protecting the posters.I think it simply has to do with your own ego...I'm certainly not here to stir things up.Why would I care to do that ? I'm not here to gain approval or attention. I've offered to discuss the case and I appreciate people like SuperDave who have taken me up on it.You could do the same Jay.
Whether you own or rent a house...can you be sure where you were inside it on any given day ? Can you always say..well at 2 o'clock I was in this room and at 3 pm I was I that room..etc etc.I don't know if being wrong about where you were in your own home means you killed your own daughter.
I have a daughter. How many of you who are convinced Patsy killed Jon Benet have children ?You have any kids Jay ? Don't be offended. Simply curious. Statistics aside....a lot of children are killed/molested by strangers/nonfamily as well..Polly Klass was an example...the Groen children were examples...the parents were also killed in that one so they weren't around to be suspects...You simply can't say that the parents are the only people who kill children...Yes look at the parents..but don't focus on them to the exclusion of all else. The Boulder police didn't even look at any other possibilities..and some of you aren't either because you're convinced Patsy did it/John did it/Burke did it or some combination of them did it.
I'm still waiting to hear a motive if you think the Ramseys did it. How do you garrotte someone by accident ?:waitasec: Douglas has a slide..of Jon Benet with the garrotte around her neck and yes he showed it to us in Nashville. Absolutely terrible. Do you have the fortitude to do that to your own child ? Obviously some of you think Patsy does/did. I don't see she had the psychopathology to do it.:slap:

 

[Ames]

Statistics aside....a lot of children are killed/molested by strangers/nonfamily as well..Polly Klass was an example...the Groen children were examples...the parents were also killed in that one so they weren't around to be suspects...You simply can't say that the parents are the only people who kill children...Yes look at the parents..but don't focus on them to the exclusion of all else.

Hi, I know that this was not directed at me, but I had to reply, anyway. Can you name ANY other child murders that happened INSIDE the child's own home, with the parents and a sibling sleeping upstairs? I can't. The ones that I have heard of, the kidnapper sneaks into the house, kidnaps the child (Elizabeth Smart, Polly Klass...just to name a couple), and gets the heck outta there. WHY would an intruder come into the Ramsey's home, take the time to find a writing utensil, a pad, rope and duct tape, take the child from her bed, and instead of going OUT THE WINDOW...or the DOOR (now THERES a novel idea!), he takes her to the basement (how did he know where it was), and takes his precious time to sexually assault her, using Patsy's paintbrush, wipe her down, REDRESS her in size 12 panties (how did he know where to find those?), wrap her in a blanket that the housekeeper said was in the DRYER...(how did he know where to find it?), fashioned a garotte, bash her on the head, and and then kill her??? There was WAY to much time spent on that crime, for it to have been an intruder. How did he know that the Ramsey's wouldn't wake up, while he was penning that ransom "letter" that he wrote? He just made himself at "home". (Which to me, states that it WAS his/her home).

The Boulder police didn't even look at any other possibilities..and some of you aren't either because you're convinced Patsy did it/John did it/Burke did it or some combination of them did it.

Not true...they took handwriting samples, and DNA from many, many people. John Ramsey stated in an interview that the police only focused on him and Patsy, because thats what he WANTS everybody to think. I found the scanned document that Erin Moriarty held up on "48 Hours", and I will give you the link, or try to just paste the document, if needed. But, the list of people that the police looked into, goes on and on and on. Oh yeah...I DO have two kids of my own.

 

[narlacat]

<<The Boulder police didn't even look at any other possibilities>.

Not true.

They interviewed 590 people, consulted 64 outside experts, investigated and cleared more than 1000 possible suspects, collected 1,058 pieces of evidence, gathered handwriting and non testimonial evidence from 215 people, built a case file of 30,000 pages, reviewed more than 3,400 letters and 700 telephone tips and contacted 17 states and two foriegn countries.
[Chapter 31 JonBenet-Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation]

What's that then?
Doesnt sound like they didnt look at anyone else to me.

 

[Ames]

<<The Boulder police didn't even look at any other possibilities>.

Not true.

They interviewed 590 people, consulted 64 outside experts, investigated and cleared more than 1000 possible suspects, collected 1,058 pieces of evidence, gathered handwriting and non testimonial evidence from 215 people, built a case file of 30,000 pages, reviewed more than 3,400 letters and 700 telephone tips and contacted 17 states and two foriegn countries.
[Chapter 31 JonBenet-Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation]

What's that then?
Doesnt sound like they didnt look at anyone else to me.

THANKS for posting this!!!

 

[LionRun]

Can you name ANY other child murders that happened INSIDE the child's own home, with the parents and a sibling sleeping upstairs?

Very good question. Does anyone have suggestions on how to google in order to get answers to the above question?

I know of one case, where I knew the family, in which a 3 year old girl was kidnapped at night from inside their home. The kidnapper had to have walked right past the parent's door on both the way in and out. Their is a little info on the web about it. It happened in 1987. The girl, Kara, was retrieved unharmed during an exchange where one Texas Ranger was killed (by kidnapper), and in turn the kidnapper was killed by a second Texas Ranger. Most of what I know Leigh, Kara's mother, told me years ago. Tragically, Bill, Leigh, and Kara Whitehead were later killed in a plane crash (their private plane) in I think 1991. I think the one family member who was not in the plane that day, Cody (Bill and Leigh's son), went to live with grandparents.

But, Kara was taken from the home; nothing that I heard of was done to her in the home. It was a truly bizarre thing that happened to the Whiteheads concerning the kidnapping. Maybe that is one reason that I refuse to get off the fence until I know everything I can.

 

[narlacat]

Dr Beuf treated JonBenet for vaginitis multiple times. He told Diane Sawyer in an interview I have posted here before that he had given JonBenet five or six vaginal exams in three years time. That's an awful lot, if you ask me. My daughter has never required that much medical attention to her genital area.

I'll need to do a bit more looking, but I don't believe a subpoena was even issued for the medical records. When it came to obtaining records like that, BPD were stalwarted by the DA's office repeatedly. I'm pretty sure Dr Beuf kept JonBenet's medical records sealed in a security box, and the school nurse JonBenet saw has never publicly said what JonBenet's cause of the two Monday visits were, just like Patsy's three frantic calls on the same day. I have to agree - if there's nothing to hide, and those were run of the mill reasons for visiting the nurse and calling Beuf 3 times in a row, why hasn't the reason for both been revealed by now?

It's standard knowledge that JonBenet had some serious toileting issues. From Steve Thomas's book, hb, page 137 (he's talking about interviewing Nedra Paugh, Patsy's mother):

She revealed a bit more about JonBenet messing her pants and bed, a subject she had minimized in our previous interview. Now, however, she said that the child did not wipe properly after a bowel movement, and quite often an adult would have to wash her bottom and change her undies. They called it "dirtying." The grandmother also mentioned two occasions when the little girl had gone to play with her best friend, Daphne White, and had come with Fleet White carrying her soiled underwear, saying that JonBenet had had an accident and was wearing a pair of Daphne's panties.

<snip>

Nedra was also obviously aware of the current evidence. When she talked about "an old booger of a dog" that JonBenet liked to wrestle, she pointed out that the dog did not scratch the girl's vagina.


*Now that's just bizarre, if you ask me. There's something really wrong going on, with JonBenet wetting herself on a regular basis (not just at night) and having a poopy bottom that needs to be washed and Hershey stripes in all her undies. No child wants to wet herself while playing with her best friend, and it happened to JB more than once. I could see it if she was only 3 or 4, but she was 6. The average 6 year old girl simply DOES NOT have the amount of vaginal trouble and toileting issues that JonBenet had. Something had to have been going on.

Not only that, but when Patsy is told about evidence of sexual abuse (her hymeneal opening measured 1 cm, which is twice the normal size for a girl her age), Patsy's response was "How did you know that?" Now honestly, does that sound like the reply of a woman who had no idea at all that her daughter was being molested? And what about Nedra saying JB had only been "a little bit" molested? I forget what book that was in, or I'd give a page number and title.

LionRun, if you would like more info on this case than you can find here, I suggest you go where I go - to FFJ, Forums for Justice. The posters on the JB board there have to be the most knowledgeable collection of people on the JB case I have ever encountered.

Other than that, please read the three major books - Death of Innocence by John and Patsy Ramsey, Perfect Murder, Perfect Town by Lawrence Schiller, and JonBenet: Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas.

I've often wondered if what problems my child has with his bowel, was happening for JonBenet- and totally unrelated to the bedwetting.
He has a lazy/stretched bowel and the outcome is poopy underwear.
His diet has to be monitored constantly to keep the bowel working properly.
I don't think PR was a great housekeeper or a great cook and doubt she would have taken the extra time needed to correct the problem (if that were the case) she was way too busy being a social butterfly to effectively parent her children.

Exactly right, not normal.

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

so I'll have to write it out all over again...
The police interviewed 590 people. How many of them were suspects or potential suspects.What did the police ask them ? My guess is most of them were asked about the Ramseys...they were people who knew the family...The police were looking for information to use against the Ramseys...they were not looking for or looking at other suspects...

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

suspects....that simply isn't true...they may have done so since Laci became DA after the case was taken away from the Boulder PD...but not when the PD had charge of it.That's probably LE propaganda distributed so as to cause suspicion on the Ramseys..the old" only they could have done it method". Heck..they didn't even bother to interview convicted child molesters/pedophiles who lived in the area....

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/index_1.html

I hope those of you who believe the Ramseys guilty will read it...

Sections on allegation/lack of cooperation/refusing to be interviewed....

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/allegations_4.html

all were/are false....

john went to a shop allegation...

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/allegations_4b.html

false....no evidence of sex abuse according to the Denver ME..so why is he at odds with that list someone posted...A conspiracy I guess...number of clinic visits consistent with children that age according to Dr.Beuf...Family services interviewed Burke while the police watched..and didn't find any evidence of abuse..sexual or otherwise...

alleged mistress said John did it...

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/allegations_4c.html

denied and no proof...allegation that Jon Benet was killed for bed wetting..denied and no proof...

narlacat..the police didn't look at anyone else..and I remember you as well..this must be old home time ..with jay and now you here..I am sure you don't remember me either..from courttv.com..but I hope you will..unlike someone else..accept my word I was there...

 

[cynpat2000]

so I'll have to write it out all over again...
The police interviewed 590 people. How many of them were suspects or potential suspects.What did the police ask them ? My guess is most of them were asked about the Ramseys...they were people who knew the family...The police were looking for information to use against the Ramseys...they were not looking for or looking at other suspects...

The mcreynolds were suspects , the karr fiasco, they have looked at others. not just the Ramseys. If they were thinking of the Ramseys as being the primary suspects its because ALL of the evidence points to them.

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

no all the evidence doesn't point to the Ramseys.That's a myth...The Ramseys were persons of interests...the term frequently used...because..sadly..parents do kill their own children...so it was based upon statistics.....Others were not seriously considered or investigated because of police inexperience and incompetence...

 

[BBB167893]

Was the statement the police gave John..."John, your shirt fibers were on JonBenet's vaginal area"...a lie?

I doubt it, since the guy who said that one would have been disbarred for it.

Has anyone considered the possibility the doctor visits, esp if vaginal exams were involved, were a cover so to speak or a prep for some sort of sexual abuse?

My brother. But then, he knows almost nothing about the case.

so why would anybody risk going to the doctor who was abusing their own child ?

If one is doing it and the other has suspicions...

Yes I read where the doctor allegedly says he never did an internal exam. But how could the parents know the doctor wouldn't do one if they were molesting Jon Benet.

But he was their friend. Hardly an impartial source.

Try this:

From the wiki-

In addition, Internet poster Candy has noted that Ricky Holland's pediatrician also saw no signs of child abuse [Ricky Holland's parents have been [http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061115/NEWS99/61115011/1008/NEWS|convicted] of Ricky's death and the father has apologized for his role, leaving little doubt about their culpability.].

The Boulder police didn't even look at any other possibilities

According the Henry Lee, every scenario was exhaustively examined.

How do you garrotte someone by accident ?

Firstly, if you don't know the person is still alive.

Secondly, it's a lot more subtle than people might think. The cord is like a snake.

Douglas has a slide..of Jon Benet with the garrotte around her neck and yes he showed it to us in Nashville. Absolutely terrible. Do you have the fortitude to do that to your own child ? Obviously some of you think Patsy does/did. I don't see she had the psychopathology to do it.

We've all seen it. And you'd be amazed what people will do to save their own skin.

Not true...they took handwriting samples, and DNA from many, many people. John Ramsey stated in an interview that the police only focused on him and Patsy, because thats what he WANTS everybody to think

Yep.

Sections on allegation/lack of cooperation/refusing to be interviewed all were/are false....

Oh, yeah?

They placed strict conditions on how they would be interviewed. In April 1998, "John Ramsey wrote a letter to Boulder District Attorney Alex Hunter at home and offered to meet. The only ground rule: no Boulder police would be allowed in the room." (Glick et al. 1998).

Heck..they didn't even bother to interview convicted child molesters/pedophiles who lived in the area....

Jane Harmer did that one. Does the name John Brewer Eustace mean anything to you?

no all the evidence doesn't point to the Ramseys.That's a myth...

Would you like a numbered list?

Henry Lee, Mark Beckner, Dan Hoffman, et al have all exploded that RST myth.

no evidence of sex abuse according to the Denver ME..so why is he at odds with that list someone posted...A conspiracy I guess

I don't think he was involved that closely with that part of the investigation, Wolf. And that list was mine. I guess it didn't take the first time. Here it is again:

The doctors who said there was abuse over time were:

John McCann

David Jones

Virginia Rau

James Monteleone

Richard Krugman

Ronald Wright

Robert Kirschner

Cyril Wecht

And

Holly Smith, head of Boulder County Sexual Abuse team, stated had found fecal staining in all of JBR's panties on the 3rd day of the investigation; in 2006 she stated: "There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith....While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions."

And

In August, the Boulder police department contacted Dr. John McCann, one of the nation’s leading experts on child sexual abuse. McCann had agreed to assist the police department in determining if JonBenet had been a victim of sexual abuse during or before her murder. McCann was sent the autopsy report and photos. According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet. There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim. A generalized increase in redness of the tissues of the vestibule was apparent, and small red flecks of blood were visible around the perineum and the external surface of the genitalia. Dr. McCann explained the term "chronic abuse" meant only that it was "repeated", but that the number of incidents could not be determined. In the case of JonBenet, the doctor could only say that there was evidence of “prior abuse". The examination results were evidence that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration. However, it was not possible to determine the number of incidents nor over what period of time. Because the prior injury had healed, any other incidents of abuse probably were more than 10 days prior. In discussing perpetrators of sexual abuse on children, McCann stated that the majority of children this age are molested by someone with whom they have close contact most commonly family members. He explained that if the molester is a stranger or someone else with whom the child is not close, the child will usually tell someone or psychological problems appear which create behavior changes observed by their parents. Common symptoms would be eating disorders, nightmares or a variety of behaviors indicating that something is bothering them. Commencement or increased bedwetting is also commonly seen in sexually abused children. When asked about JonBenet's sexualized behavior during her pageant performances, McCann said that this was not necessarily a sign of abuse, since this was taught behavior for the pageants. Also, with children's exposure to sexually explicit television programs, sexualized behavior is no longer considered to be an indication of possible sexual abuse.

That crimelibrary piece is a bunch of garbage culled from other sources, most notably Michael Tracey. Try crimemagazine.com.

Incidentally, doesn't it bother anyone that John claims he and his family cooperated fully, but in practically the same breath, says that the reason they didn't cooperate was because the cops were only focused on them? Can't be both.