Sexual behavior - Merged and Closed

[julianne]

How come there's never been video out circulating?

Isn't it entirely possible that cynical adults really "read" more into the video than was actually there? Isn't it possible that it was an innocent thing, and the adults with the "sexualized" minds turned it into something bad???? The guy who said she was masturbating was probably a dirty old man & a pervert too!

Until I actually see the tape & it's contents confirmed, it's just another fallacy in this case that is filled with fallacies.

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

http://www.bestfreeforums.com/forums/jonbenét-ramsey-vf3-sanctuary2.html

I just found out about it..haven't read anything there..any theories...

If John Ramsey is a pedophile/child molester..as someone tried to say here...if he was...then why did he stop ? Jon Benet is dead...but those kind of people don't stop because they have a compulsion...so there should be evidence..out there somewhere of further activities on his part..other women..other children..something..there's none of that...

I am not in LE...The TBI..Tennessee Bureau of Investigation..is going to build a crime lab here in Knoxville TN..I may apply for a job there.I would love to learn how to do human dna testing...even that allegedly degraded dna from the Ramsey case...

I did go to law school for 2years..my wife had a stroke..I dropped out to take care of her and our kids and never went back. My wife and kids had to come first..so I don't regret it.....

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

it doesn't make them murderers....:laugh:

 

[Nuisanceposter]

That's a good point, julianne. Let's look at the credentials of the person saying JonBenet was masturbating in front of a group of seniors with a saxophone - Dr Judianne Densen-Gerber.

(some of this is paraphrased by me)

She was a psychiatrist who graduated from Bryn Mawr College (1956) and received her JD (1959) from Columbia University, MD (1963) from New York University, and D.Sc. (Hon. 1983) Lebanon Valley College.

She dedicated her professional life to fighting substance abuse, child abuse, battery of women, and .

She pioneered the therapeutic community concept, which was embodied by Odyssey House, which she founded. Through her tireless work Odyssey House expanded to have facilities in over a dozen states and 3 continents.

Through the hands-onwork that she did and her prolific writings (including 3 books: Drugs, Sex, Parents and You; We Maineline Dreams; and Walk in My Shoes), she influenced societies conception of addiction and in many ways formulated its approach to treatment. She was appointed to numerous local, state, and federal bodies to address these issues and served as personal advisor to several members of congress.

She received innumerable awards for her work including a Congressional Certificate of Merit, Nobless Order of the White Cross (from the government of Austrailia), Dame Commander of the Knights of Malta, and appointed an Honorary New York State Fire Chief. She was on the faculty and lectured at several medical and law schools.

*sidenote - She was also married to Dr Michael Baden.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B00EEDF113FF930A25756C0A9659C8B63


Based on her education and work, considering one of her areas being abuse in children and , I think she was qualified to state her opinion that JonBenet was engaging in sexualized behavior in her performance with the saxophone, and that it wasn't just her projecting her own thoughts into what she saw.

I'm on the fence about the video with JB - part of me wants to see exactly what JB was doing, but part of me never wants to see anything like that at all. I would perhaps assume that the RST has effectively shut down anyone showing that video clip without express permission to do so. I don't think it can be dismissed as a fallacy, though - Dr Densen Gerber has obviously seen it, and I trust she knew what she was talking about.

 

[cynpat2000]

Professionals make mistakes all the time - think about the handwriting experts that said John Mark Karr wrote the ransom note...:twocents:

 

[Nuisanceposter]

it doesn't make them murderers....:laugh:

Well, whether they could have been involved in the murder or not depends upon what they were lying about.

J&P both said all the doors were locked, only to recant four months later and say they weren't. Thomas noted that the change didn't match the reports of three different police officers, who were all independently told by JR that the house was locked. Patsy's friends said in PMPT that she had said the house was locked.

JR said that he read the kids a book, only to change that four months later to saying he read a book - again, in conflict with police reports.

JR said in DOI that the FBI were not involved in the case, and that BPD held them at bay, when, in fact, BPD had called FBI to inform of the case, and Sgt Mason himself drove Agent Ron Walker over to the Ramsey house when JonBenet's body had been found.

Patsy said she saw the heart on JonBenet's hand the morning of the 26th in an interview, and started the interview the next time by pointing out that she hadn't seen it, she'd read about it in the autopsy - and JR had said that neither of them had read the autopsy.

Patsy said the pageant thing was just a few Sunday afternoons, no big deal, and friends of hers in PMPT said they'd spend the whole week getting ready for a pageant and that it was a big deal.

Patsy said the bedwetting was no big deal, but both Burke and housekeeper LHP said it was.

The Rs said JonBenet was asleep when they got home Christmas night, her brother Burke said she was awake and walked in the house and up the spiral staircase right ahead of their mother. The pineapple in JonBenet's small intestine says she was awake at some point after arriving home, since the pineapple in her belly was consistent down to the rind with what was in the bowl on the breakfast table - it also says she ate it 1 - 2 hours before she was killed.

And these are just a few examples of lies the Rs have told...why would there be any need to lie like at all if an intruder was the one responsible for JonBenet's death?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Professionals make mistakes all the time - think about the handwriting experts that said John Mark Karr wrote the ransom note...:twocents:

That's a good point, but who were those experts, and what were their credentials?

 

[cynpat2000]

That's a good point, but who were those experts, and what were their credentials?

I have no clue. I do feel the Ramseys caused Jonbenets death but im on the fence if she was molested though. Is there anyway to view this tape ?

 

[JMO8778]

Sorry you felt the need to :banghead: ....I would speculate that it hurts

I spect it does

 

[JMO8778]

Please do not speculate about the identity of other members.

I respectfully apologise to the forum then.I will go back and reread the rules,thx JBRMod2.

 

[JMO8778]

In my opinion, the Ramseys invited criticism when they refused to participate in police interviews or take polygraphs without a multitude of conditions.

As well as appearing on national tv shortly after the murder.And going to chuch a week later,where they knew they would be publicly seen,videotaped and photographed.
I think when they put themselves in public veiw,they should have expected public scrutiny.They themselves invited it,to some extent.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I have no clue. I do feel the Ramseys caused Jonbenets death but im on the fence if she was molested though. Is there anyway to view this tape ?

I've come off the fence about the molestation because there were too many trips to the doc for vaginitis and painful urination, plus the soiling and wetting both day and night that eased up a bit at one point for six months and then recurred again about a month before JonBenet was killed, and Patsy supposedly saying "How did you know that?" when interviewers brought up signs that JonBenet had been molested prior to the night she was killed.

Then when you look at the autopsy and realize her hymen was torn and, good god, eroded away, with parts of her vagina visible that should have been covered by it, with her hymeneal opening twice the normal size for a girl her age, I think the question of sexual abuse becomes clear - yes, someone was molesting her. But that's just imo. I've also considered that the signs of abuse could have come from corporal punishment, but internal damage....I don't know.

I've looked for this video with the saxophone several times, and I can't find it. Maybe I'm not using the right search words, I don't know. I don't believe it's available online, but if anyone knows where to find it, it's probably SuperDave. He's a near indefatiguable source of information.

 

[JMO8778]

I think PR would have taken JB to a specialist if she truly didn't know the source of the problem and wanted to find and cure it,but she apparently didn't feel comfortable enough to do that.In her own words,they had health ins.,and that's what it's for.

 

[Ames]

And they wanted to be interviewed together.

Detective: Mrs. Ramsey, when was the last time saw JonBenet before she was killed?

Patsy: I last saw JonBenet at 10 p.m. Isn't that right, John?

John: Oh, absolutely.


-Tea

Yep, they had to make sure that their stories were straight. I would remember the exact time that I saw my dead child alive....and wouldn't have to ask my husband. Geez....oh what a tangled web we weave....

 

[Ames]

Ticking time bomb motive- Patsy's hidden fear of her cancer returning/JonBenet seperating from her. Trigger motive- Patsy catching John and JonBenet engaged in a sexual act.


-Tea

All of these things, along with the fact that she had, as she had stated, two glasses of wine (could it have been MORE???)....yep, a ticking time bomb.

 

[Ames]

Don't laugh...there was actually an elf theory here a couple of years ago. Seriously.

Angrywolf, were you formerly in LE?

HAHA...you have GOT to be kidding!!!!

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Well, that's what gets me, JMO...they had such outstanding health insurance, and that's the reason in DOI for why JonBenet was at the doctor's so often...but I guess that stellar insurance didn't cover a visit to a pediatric urologist, which is, in my opinion, where they should have taken JonBenet when she had such trouble staying dry that she wet herself while over at her best friend's house more than once, among other places and times - waking up wet on a regular basis, needing to change unders and relocate to another drier bed in the middle of the night on top of having her mother come wake her up nightly to use the toilet.

No child wants to have to deal with incontinence. JonBenet couldn't possibly have enjoyed having to deal with that, and as her parents, it was John and Patsy's responsibility to make sure her urinary health was what it was supposed to be, regardless of whether JonBenet's regular pediatrician said it was nothing to worry about or not. People get second opinions all the time, and many times they find out it was worth the time and effort - a different doctor, especially a specialist, may find a cause for a problem the usual doctor had missed, and be able to offer a treatment that will ease or eradicate the problem.

The fact that Patsy was more than willing to spare no expense to truck JonBenet to a plastic surgeon when Burke hit her with a golf club but refused to take JonBenet to a pediatric urologist when she had a continuing incontinence problem indicates to me that Patsy didn't want the source of the incontinence looked into very much. Better and easier to just take her to Dr Beuf who will agree she's just fine than to consult a doctor with more training and expertise in a situation concerning an ongoing urinary condition.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

All of these things, along with the fact that she had, as she had stated, two glasses of wine (could it have been MORE???)....yep, a ticking time bomb.

You know you're accusing Patsy of being an alcoholic, Ames! Admit it, you're clearly implying she was bombed all day every day!

Just kidding, but that whole situation on the other board was ridiculous. I think that was brought up because you'd hit upon something that may very well have been a key in this puzzle - was Patsy's judgment, etc, impaired by drinking that night? Considering her previous health issues and any meds she may have been on, I think that's a valid question, and if she had been drinking, I could see where that would play into what may have happened to JonBenet.

As I've said before, and this is imo, I think the head wound preceeded everything else that happened in regards to JB's murder that night - but my main question is, who incurred the head wound, and why? If Patsy had been drinking and had had more than she ought to have had, then I could definitely see her turning on JB over something and striking her, perhaps even much harder than she meant to. Something to think about....

 

[cynpat2000]

I think PR would have taken JB to a specialist if she truly didn't know the source of the problem and wanted to find and cure it,but she apparently didn't feel comfortable enough to do that.In her own words,they had health ins.,and that's what it's for.

Than that would mean Patsy was the molester or suspected John was and just didnt care enough to stop it. BTW I reread the autopsy report and I think ive came off the fence. I just wonder why noone was ever charged, nevermind I forget this is Boulder were talking about.

 

[julianne]

That's a good point, julianne. Let's look at the credentials of the person saying JonBenet was masturbating in front of a group of seniors with a saxophone - Dr Judianne Densen-Gerber.

(some of this is paraphrased by me)

She was a psychiatrist who graduated from Bryn Mawr College (1956) and received her JD (1959) from Columbia University, MD (1963) from New York University, and D.Sc. (Hon. 1983) Lebanon Valley College.

She dedicated her professional life to fighting substance abuse, child abuse, battery of women, and .

She pioneered the therapeutic community concept, which was embodied by Odyssey House, which she founded. Through her tireless work Odyssey House expanded to have facilities in over a dozen states and 3 continents.

Through the hands-onwork that she did and her prolific writings (including 3 books: Drugs, Sex, Parents and You; We Maineline Dreams; and Walk in My Shoes), she influenced societies conception of addiction and in many ways formulated its approach to treatment. She was appointed to numerous local, state, and federal bodies to address these issues and served as personal advisor to several members of congress.

She received innumerable awards for her work including a Congressional Certificate of Merit, Nobless Order of the White Cross (from the government of Austrailia), Dame Commander of the Knights of Malta, and appointed an Honorary New York State Fire Chief. She was on the faculty and lectured at several medical and law schools.

*sidenote - She was also married to Dr Michael Baden.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B00EEDF113FF930A25756C0A9659C8B63


Based on her education and work, considering one of her areas being abuse in children and , I think she was qualified to state her opinion that JonBenet was engaging in sexualized behavior in her performance with the saxophone, and that it wasn't just her projecting her own thoughts into what she saw.

I'm on the fence about the video with JB - part of me wants to see exactly what JB was doing, but part of me never wants to see anything like that at all. I would perhaps assume that the RST has effectively shut down anyone showing that video clip without express permission to do so. I don't think it can be dismissed as a fallacy, though - Dr Densen Gerber has obviously seen it, and I trust she knew what she was talking about.

Well, her credentials are admirable. I found some transcripts from the Geraldo show. They are in red.



Raoul Felder: Taking into account everything you've seen, all the documents you've studied,
what conclusions have you drawn, and can you draw any conclusions as to who did it?

Dr. Densen-Gerber: Well, first, let's say that it's not only within a reasonable degree of medical
certainty, but it's a lot of feminine intuition, too. And we shouldn't say that common sense can
be thrown out. First of all, a man who is sexually aroused, who is angry at a child, will take his
hand and choke it. A man's hand is big enough. To have to use a garrote, and even in addition,
to have to use a stick, means that you don't have much strength. Furthermore, to, to, the child
was dragged down the steps because of the abrasions on the back of the body. We know from
everything we've seen that John's father, JonBenet's father could pick her up, cause he picked
her up and he brought her upstairs. So why would he have dragged her down the stairs if he
could have picked her up?

OK, where is the evidence in the autopsy that she was dragged? Secondly, the use of a garrotte certainly does not mean the perp was a female. Thirdly, this woman admittedly bases her synopsis on "female intuiton." While I think female intuition is a very strong thing to base PERSONAL things on and can have a certain amount of credibility, one cannot declare someone a murderer based on their womanly intuition. She also says "A man who is sexually aroused and angry at a child will take his hand and choke IT"----what????

IMO, credentials can be a commendable thing--but it definately doesn't mean that the person is mentally fit to make valid assumptions.

In reading other things this "expert" has said, I tend to think she was a little bit off her rocker.