Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. What do you think?

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something I have been thinking about lately is the reason for the season in which the killer seems to operate. may 1 - end of oct. seems to be the window. we have all speculated on the reasons, and it could be anything, but that window does seem to mirror the typical dates for boat owners to have their boats in the water. Many of the island residents have their own boats.

IF the killer owns a boat and IF this wasnÄt about gathering bodies in one place (because SG wasnÄt in that dump site), then WHY did were any bodies found at all? Wrap, a good weight at it, down to the bottom of the sea.

Peter
 
Peter, I beg to differ.

# 1 Confused, where is there evidence that Brewer is a voyeur?
The lie detector test. If there are two males A and B in a house, A can in a lie detector test only say under one condition "I hadn't intentions to have sex with her" without showing up as liar, if his intention was not to have sex with her but to watch having B sex with her.

# 2 "Brewer grabbed her from behind at one point, Pak said. But she slipped out of his grasp and crouched behind a sofa, where she dialed 911 in a 23-minute call, placed at 4:51 a.m., and told the operator, "They’re trying to kill me." To me that is aggressive behavior.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/06/jersey_city_prostitute_still_m.html


The same kind of aggressive behavior, EMTs show if they try to grab a patient who is out of control? And then she had enough time ti make this permently growing phone call ... whether it's 18 minutes like in the beginning of the story or 23 as it is now in your post. If someone would have been really aggressive, she wouldn't have that amount of time.

Peter
 
Peter I'm confused by this statement you made "LISK - medium kill frequency, ramping up after he got attention" Not true. Because after the GB4 bodies were found, we don't know of any other murders.

So? That would be a valid argument if I would have referred to anything beyond the last known victim Amber Lynn Costello. But I didn't.

Year victims/year victims total
2007 1 1
2008 0 1
2009 1 2
2010 2 4

If ypu put that in a graph, you can see the lower end of a parabolic curve. And that shows us, he is ramping up. While the average number of victims per year is 1 (4 years divided by 4 victims). Which can be interpreted as medium or low kill frequency, but in any way is much higher then that of Manorville, who had, as far as we can see only a victim per three to four years. So ... simple math.

Peter
 
Now, why I get an email, BKS answered, but the board doesn't who that answer? Technical server cold again? Whatever, the mail contains the text, BKS wrote:

Brewer refused to pay her! Clearly she was upset and would want her money. He probably threatened her and when he grabbed her, she was scared, 911 was probably on her speed dial. But what do I know I wasn 'tthere.

Even is 911 was on her speed dial, she would also have needed it on speedtalk to talk for 18, 21 or 23 minutes in the time before a really violent person would taked her (some seconds if she was just behind the sofa). So ... we could try to apply logic and sort out what is possible and what not. Or we could do the time warp to make it plausible why an allegedly violent person stood there at least 18 minutes with the finger in the nose before attacking. And after we solved that riddle, based on the time warp, we can assume, based on impossible assumptions, he didn't want to pay her and she insisted ... but oh well, there is a level of illogic in this, I don't want to follow.

Peter
 
Now, why I get an email, BKS answered, but the board doesn't who that answer? Technical server cold again? Whatever, the mail contains the text, BKS wrote:

Brewer refused to pay her! Clearly she was upset and would want her money. He probably threatened her and when he grabbed her, she was scared, 911 was probably on her speed dial. But what do I know I wasn 'tthere.

Even is 911 was on her speed dial, she would also have needed it on speedtalk to talk for 18, 21 or 23 minutes in the time before a really violent person would taked her (some seconds if she was just behind the sofa). So ... we could try to apply logic and sort out what is possible and what not. Or we could do the time warp to make it plausible why an allegedly violent person stood there at least 18 minutes with the finger in the nose before attacking. And after we solved that riddle, based on the time warp, we can assume, based on impossible assumptions, he didn't want to pay her and she insisted ... but oh well, there is a level of illogic in this, I don't want to follow.

Peter

Sorry, but don't understand anything whatsoever of this post of yours.

Is it me, and my lack of english, or is this post hard to understand?
 
Sorry, but don't understand anything whatsoever of this post of yours.

Is it me, and my lack of english, or is this post hard to understand?

1. paragraph:
- I got an email that BKS answered
- the post didn't show up on the board
- so I asked if the server has again one of it's colds

2.paragraph:
- I copied BKS' message from that mail

3.paragraph
- I commented on the discrepancy between the length of the telephone call and the fact, that nobody attacked her in this time.
- I commented on the use of impossible assumptions as base for other assumptions.

By the way, I still wait for an apology.

Peter
 
Sorry, but don't understand anything whatsoever of this post of yours.

Is it me, and my lack of english, or is this post hard to understand?

can some one please explain to me

one thing? that has always perplexed me????????

shannan ran to coletti's - coletti called the police
and then
coletti saw pak out side stopping and starting in his black suv.
when coletti spoke to pak he said

"i've called the cops"

and pak said "oh now she's in a lot of trouble"


so.....since shannan had been on the phone with 911 - and pak KNEW IT... and brewer KNEW IT......
WHY WAS SHANNAN IN TROUBLE THAT COLETTI CALLED THE COPS?
shannan was on the phone with them for 20 minutes.....
the point being.....
shannan CALLED the COPS HERSELF for help (albeit 911)
so why is she in trouble.....once coletti called the cops?

i have NEVER understand the logic on that one!!!

can anyone help me on that?
 
Mockingbird,

Maybe Pak was thinking the 911 operator didnt have enough info to identify Shannan's location, but that changed when Coletti made the call.
 
can some one please explain to me

one thing? that has always perplexed me????????

shannan ran to coletti's - coletti called the police
and then
coletti saw pak out side stopping and starting in his black suv.
when coletti spoke to pak he said

"i've called the cops"

and pak said "oh now she's in a lot of trouble"


so.....since shannan had been on the phone with 911 - and pak KNEW IT... and brewer KNEW IT......
WHY WAS SHANNAN IN TROUBLE THAT COLETTI CALLED THE COPS?
shannan was on the phone with them for 20 minutes.....
the point being.....
shannan CALLED the COPS HERSELF for help (albeit 911)
so why is she in trouble.....once coletti called the cops?

i have NEVER understand the logic on that one!!!

can anyone help me on that?

Even if she would have been full of pills to the point that she rattled, Brewer and Pak had no reason to give that to testimony. And also not, that she was a prostitute. But with an independent witness, things look a little bit different.
 
IF the killer owns a boat and IF this wasnÄt about gathering bodies in one place (because SG wasnÄt in that dump site), then WHY did were any bodies found at all? Wrap, a good weight at it, down to the bottom of the sea.

Peter

The variation among the bodies found on the beach show a consistent pattern of change. The sloppiest involve the oldest: dismemberment and body parts washing up on a beach in '96, now associated with the rest bundled in a bag 150 ft off of Ocean Parkway. It shows the killer was learning and changing his MO ever so slightly as time went on and as he took note. Why weigh down a body and dump it at sea when it could easily wash ashore? Weigh down a body? Done! Check. Boring and too unpredictable.

No, he learned his developing predilections, and we learned he was too much of a control freak for that--he needed to know where the skeletons are located. He probably got a good laugh at how close to the motorists they were, for a while--his secret, so close and yet so far away, and a constant happy reminder every time he drove down the Parkway. Not just one happy death, but two, then six, eight, ten . . .

What tripped him up was SG, who, btw, had been listed on Craigslist before Backpage. Her age and race very similar to the others. Slight build. Nice eyes. He probably got greedy; wanted somebody in his own backyard. Even he was subsequently shocked by his own carelessness. Probably after May 1, his mantra was, "No more phones! Gotta remember, no more phones!"

Why would somebody dump a body in the marsh? Why not? He did not think the body or belongings would ever be found.
 
can some one please explain to me

one thing? that has always perplexed me????????

shannan ran to coletti's - coletti called the police
and then
coletti saw pak out side stopping and starting in his black suv.
when coletti spoke to pak he said

"i've called the cops"

and pak said "oh now she's in a lot of trouble"


so.....since shannan had been on the phone with 911 - and pak KNEW IT... and brewer KNEW IT......
WHY WAS SHANNAN IN TROUBLE THAT COLETTI CALLED THE COPS?
shannan was on the phone with them for 20 minutes.....
the point being.....
shannan CALLED the COPS HERSELF for help (albeit 911)
so why is she in trouble.....once coletti called the cops?

i have NEVER understand the logic on that one!!!

can anyone help me on that?

Good catch! and a good question.

Maybe Pak had heard Shannan on the phone tell the 911 dispatcher that she wasen't sure where she was at, or, as I tend to remember (not 100% sure though) that she told the 911 dispatcher that she was at Jones Beach, and that Pak knew that was not correct (maybe Pak, had even informed Shannan a wrong location name on purpos? ), so he thought like; no worry the police would not appear... BUT when Colletti called 911 he of course knew where he (and therefore also where Shannan was) was, and Pak got worried because now he knew that police would show up soon.

IF this was the reason, the question is WHY Pak was so concerned about the police?
Was it just because he knew he himself, and Shannan, was doing somthing ilegal (Shannan prostitution and he beeing the driver)?
OR was it because he was involved in somthing more sinister that eventually led to Shannans death?

Just a thought...
 
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Happy Saturday sleuthers, hope everyone gets time to
listen to a lot of great music, it is the weekend people..enjoy!!!

Mocking-Bird ( as Peter Brendt calls me)


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The variation among the bodies found on the beach show a consistent pattern of change. The sloppiest involve the oldest: dismemberment and body parts washing up on a beach in '96, now associated with the rest bundled in a bag 150 ft off of Ocean Parkway. It shows the killer was learning and changing his MO ever so slightly as time went on and as he took note. Why weigh down a body and dump it at sea when it could easily wash ashore? Weigh down a body? Done! Check. Boring and too unpredictable.

No, he learned his developing predilections, and we learned he was too much of a control freak for that--he needed to know where the skeletons are located. He probably got a good laugh at how close to the motorists they were, for a while--his secret, so close and yet so far away, and a constant happy reminder every time he drove down the Parkway. Not just one happy death, but two, then six, eight, ten . . .

What tripped him up was SG, who, btw, had been listed on Craigslist before Backpage. Her age and race very similar to the others. Slight build. Nice eyes. He probably got greedy; wanted somebody in his own backyard. Even he was subsequently shocked by his own carelessness. Probably after May 1, his mantra was, "No more phones! Gotta remember, no more phones!"

Why would somebody dump a body in the marsh? Why not? He did not think the body or belongings would ever be found.

So the murders with the highest degree of violence, were the first ones? In most cases violence escalates, not de-escalates. But hey, maybe this is so very special?
And then, he developed not only a different MO, which, as I admit, but also an entirely different signature? Which is basically impossible because signature includes the ritualistic aspect, that, what he needs from this murders. To change the signature that extreme would mean, his reason to kill changed.
And then, according to your profile, he killed SG and "wanted a body in his backyard" ... in a place, he probably can't even revisit whenever he wants, because of all those brambles and because it's occasionally flooded. And especially the one body, which is allegedly so important to him that he wants her in his "backyard" is the one, he didn't wrap. And aside of all this, if he wanted to keep a body, he could have buried her under a tool shed in his real backyard, on under his basement. That's what other SKs do if they want to keep one. But hey, maybe he is so special?
And then, he returns to his old trophy garden and puts Amber Costello there?
Oh, and of course, this experienced SK let his victim sit at least 18 minutes behind the sofa talk to the police on the cell phone. Later, he drops her, together with convenient ID next to her, another first, in the marsh, knowing, police had her name and his name from that 911 call like a panicking moron?
Sorry, but this idea sounds more like the desperate try to make the evidence fitting to a suspect than finding a suspect fitting to the evidence. It's just listing bodies, ignoring the behavior behind those murders, put them all in one account and if a puzzle piece doesn't fit, using a hammer to make it fit. For me, that's a no buy.

Peter
 
Good catch! and a good question.

Maybe Pak had heard Shannan on the phone tell the 911 dispatcher that she wasen't sure where she was at, or, as I tend to remember (not 100% sure though) that she told the 911 dispatcher that she was at Jones Beach, and that Pak knew that was not correct (maybe Pak, had even informed Shannan a wrong location name on purpos? ), so he thought like; no worry the police would not appear... BUT when Colletti called 911 he of course knew where he (and therefore also where Shannan was) was, and Pak got worried because now he knew that police would show up soon.

IF this was the reason, the question is WHY Pak was so concerned about the police?
Was it just because he knew he himself, and Shannan, was doing somthing ilegal (Shannan prostitution and he beeing the driver)?
OR was it because he was involved in somthing more sinister that eventually led to Shannans death?

Just a thought...

If Pak would have told her a wrong location, it had to be before they went out. Don't forget, it was SG, who made out on the phone with Brewer, not Pak. But well, assume for a moment, she was so stupid not to know where her john was. Which begs the question how Pak knew in the first place where
Brewer lived.
So to make this work, Brewer not only had to know, SG would hire Pak to drive her out (he is not the only driver in NYC) but Pak had to know aforehand because if your idea would be right, he couldn't get the address from SG, she didn't know where to go in the first place.
So, we have the following murderers conspire to kill SG:

- Brewer, who had to arrange beforehand, it was Pak, SG would hire to drive her out.
- Pak, who told her a total another location, which makes it premeditated
- The drifter, who waited already in Brewer's house
- CPH, for what reasons ever.
- The 911 dispatcher who didn't look up Brewer's address which would have solved the mystery where SG was in a jiff but didn't on purpose
- the cops in the patrol car driving over to Oak Beach because they took intentionally their time because they knew, Brewer, the experienced SK was stupid enough to let SG sitting with the cell phone behind his sofa talking to the police while doing what exactly. He could only effort this anyway if he knew, the whole police force of Suffolk Co was in on his conspiracy. Unless of course, you claim, he had influence on the shift plans to make sure his accomplices in the police were on duty that night ...

Oh yeah, that makes total sense to me - NOT!

Peter
 
Good catch! and a good question.

Maybe Pak had heard Shannan on the phone tell the 911 dispatcher that she wasen't sure where she was at, or, as I tend to remember (not 100% sure though) that she told the 911 dispatcher that she was at Jones Beach, and that Pak knew that was not correct (maybe Pak, had even informed Shannan a wrong location name on purpos? ), so he thought like; no worry the police would not appear... BUT when Colletti called 911 he of course knew where he (and therefore also where Shannan was) was, and Pak got worried because now he knew that police would show up soon.

IF this was the reason, the question is WHY Pak was so concerned about the police?
Was it just because he knew he himself, and Shannan, was doing somthing ilegal (Shannan prostitution and he beeing the driver)?
OR was it because he was involved in somthing more sinister that eventually led to Shannans death?

Just a thought...

I agree. That makes sense. He knew he would have some explaining to do. So why help her tell them the address. After all she did say "They are trying to kill me" or something to that effect. It was reported that in some of that call that you can tell she was running. I believe she was totally frightened for good reason and in distress. She called 911 because she needed help and no one was there to help her. Coletti tried to help by calling 911 and giving them the real location, but the response of LE was lackadaisical.
 
I agree. That makes sense. He knew he would have some explaining to do. So why help her tell them the address. After all she did say "They are trying to kill me" or something to that effect. It was reported that in some of that call that you can tell she was running. I believe she was totally frightened for good reason and in distress. She called 911 because she needed help and no one was there to help her. Coletti tried to help by calling 911 and giving them the real location, but the response of LE was lackadaisical.

Lets add "IN your opinion" here. For me., this is a too desperate try to nail someone without evidence.

Peter
 
The variation among the bodies found on the beach show a consistent pattern of change. The sloppiest involve the oldest: dismemberment and body parts washing up on a beach in '96, now associated with the rest bundled in a bag 150 ft off of Ocean Parkway. It shows the killer was learning and changing his MO ever so slightly as time went on and as he took note. Why weigh down a body and dump it at sea when it could easily wash ashore? Weigh down a body? Done! Check. Boring and too unpredictable.

No, he learned his developing predilections, and we learned he was too much of a control freak for that--he needed to know where the skeletons are located. He probably got a good laugh at how close to the motorists they were, for a while--his secret, so close and yet so far away, and a constant happy reminder every time he drove down the Parkway. Not just one happy death, but two, then six, eight, ten . . .

What tripped him up was SG, who, btw, had been listed on Craigslist before Backpage. Her age and race very similar to the others. Slight build. Nice eyes. He probably got greedy; wanted somebody in his own backyard. Even he was subsequently shocked by his own carelessness. Probably after May 1, his mantra was, "No more phones! Gotta remember, no more phones!"

Why would somebody dump a body in the marsh? Why not? He did not think the body or belongings would ever be found.


So much of that rings true. There are too many convoluted lies and bazaar behavior for this to be an accidental drowning. Honestly I don't buy it!
1.A convicted felon (Pak) chased Shannan.
2.Witnesses say she was last seen near CH's house.
3.CH called Shannon's mother and says she was there that night and Pak picked her up the next morning. Then he denies it. Then police prove he is lying and he changes his story.
4.According to CH, Pak gave CH the # to call Shannan's mom.
Who's the murderer? or did she expire because they did not seek help for her and they proceeded to covered it up to save their own skin? :banghead:
 
You can bet something very weird is going on with this case. When Spota stuck his two cents in when he criticized Dormer for his input tells me something they didn't want out had to be protected. Contrast this to what happened in the Patz case. The Manh DA seems not to be pleased with the NYPD press release naming a new suspect. The DA has distanced himself from the PD, as he should at this point in the case. He refused to take part in that press release. Spota had no problem of interjecting himself. The other thing that troubles me is the false rumor circulated that the nursery owner was somehow involved. Where could such a rumor come from if it didn't come from LE?

There is something rotten in Denmark.
 
So much of that rings true. There are too many convoluted lies and bazaar behavior for this to be an accidental drowning. Honestly I don't buy it!
1.A convicted felon (Pak) chased Shannan.
2.Witnesses say she was last seen near CH's house.
3.CH called Shannon's mother and says she was there that night and Pak picked her up the next morning. Then he denies it. Then police prove he is lying and he changes his story.
4.According to CH, Pak gave CH the # to call Shannan's mom.
Who's the murderer? or did she expire because they did not seek help for her and they proceeded to covered it up to save their own skin? :banghead:

Which most likely makes it a cover up but not murder. And the whole thing would only make sense, if something went wrong in Brewer's house. Together with SG's paranoid behavior, I still thing, it was a little too much partying and the wrong mix of drugs. However, those drugs weren't SG's stash so it had to be Brewers. CPH would only come in the play if Brewer called in discrete doctor. But when said doctor came, SG was already out running wild. So he was entangled in this story and obviously. he is a bad liar, which mainly proves, he is not used to it.
The question which appears much more interesting as the quality of CPH's lies is in my opinion, who supplies Brewer. Because that would be a way to apply pressure on Brewer.
However, nothing of this connects SG to the GB4 or any Oak Beach resident to the LISK. Maybe that's a bit limited point of view, but my focus is more on the LISK than Oak Beach because LISK is still out there and probably killing more women. Oak Beach is only a side show.

Peter
 
You can bet something very weird is going on with this case. When Spota stuck his two cents in when he criticized Dormer for his input tells me something they didn't want out had to be protected. Contrast this to what happened in the Patz case. The Manh DA seems not to be pleased with the NYPD press release naming a new suspect. The DA has distanced himself from the PD, as he should at this point in the case. He refused to take part in that press release. Spota had no problem of interjecting himself. The other thing that troubles me is the false rumor circulated that the nursery owner was somehow involved. Where could such a rumor come from if it didn't come from LE?

There is something rotten in Denmark.

If not from LE ... then from an ADA? Point is, from the start, with Dormer, this case was more DA driven than LE driven. All was politics and nothing pure investigation. I have seen those messes in other cases that ended up to be much higher profile than LISK. For example Galveston/TX and Corll. Point is, if those DAs and ADAs wouldn't all the time so exclusively focused on covering their rears, they wouldn't need to put so much effort in covering their rears.
However, from professionally challenged to guilt it's a far way. So, yup, I think, something smells. But it's not rotten, it's the smell of stupidity.

Peter
 
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