Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. What do you think?

[hawkshaw]

@Hawkshaw - that letter has been talked about to no end on this site, i think you are new here.


At any rate - the attorney Johnny Ray clearly disputes that letter - or op-ed to the newsday paper. Johnny Ray addressed it at the Presser after the Gilbert family viewed the results of the Medical Examination in Happauge.

wishing everyone a safe and loving memorial day week end.

:what::what::what::what::what::what::what:

I am relatively new on the Board. I don't read all of the other threads. You mentioned a Det.McCarthy? The letter I am speaking about came from a Det.Stephson (sic). You probably mixed the names up.

What I DO KNOW is a detective that is working on the case, not working on the case, but still in the PD shouldNOT write a letter to a newspaper to 'clarify' information. It shows a lack of control. It only makes me wonder if persons higher up the food chain didn't OK him to do it......for whatever reason.

A while back another detective wrote a letter to Newsday criticizing his own police commissioner for taking away the 2 hr. OT stand-by pay that was not contracturally provided for. The detectives all seemed to be out of residence at around 2:00am when their phones rang to show up for the Lucero homicide. This is truly an 'ACCREDITED DETECTIVE BUREAU OF THE ACCREDITED SCPD'. Just look on their patrol cars and you will be reminded of it when you see it written across the cars.

Some of those detectives and supervisors that were in homicide for the Lucero murder were transferred out. They are now back like nothing happened. The new Chief of The Department, James Burke saw to that once he took office when Bellone became CE.

Burke was involved with the PIUS homicide back in 1979. It is ranked as the most important and publicized murder case in SC history. He was involved as a 'witness' and pal of the alleged killers that were convicted of that murder. Spota prosecuted that case. And now Burke is the Chief of the Dept, that came about after Spota and he arranged for Levy to step aside.

Yeah, this is a real ACCREDITED POLICE DEPT. Now all the pieces of the puzzle in the Gilgo investigation have been put in place to ensure those that may have been derelict in this case will go on without review.

 

[hawkshaw]

NYPD has been investigating the case for 33 years and were no closer to solving it than we they were when Patz disappeared 33 years ago.

All of the theories of the police and the pundits have been erased in the blink of an eye, assuming the information we now know is TRUe.

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

I am relatively new on the Board. I don't read all of the other threads. You mentioned a Det.McCarthy? The letter I am speaking about came from a Det.Stephson (sic). You probably mixed the names up.

What I DO KNOW is a detective that is working on the case, not working on the case, but still in the PD shouldNOT write a letter to a newspaper to 'clarify' information. It shows a lack of control. It only makes me wonder if persons higher up the food chain didn't OK him to do it......for whatever reason.

A while back another detective wrote a letter to Newsday criticizing his own police commissioner for taking away the 2 hr. OT stand-by pay that was not contracturally provided for. The detectives all seemed to be out of residence at around 2:00am when their phones rang to show up for the Lucero homicide. This is truly an 'ACCREDITED DETECTIVE BUREAU OF THE ACCREDITED SCPD'. Just look on their patrol cars and you will be reminded of it when you see it written across the cars.

Some of those detectives and supervisors that were in homicide for the Lucero murder were transferred out. They are now back like nothing happened. The new Chief of The Department, James Burke saw to that once he took office when Bellone became CE.

Burke was involved with the PIUS homicide back in 1979. It is ranked as the most important and publicized murder case in SC history. He was involved as a 'witness' and pal of the alleged killers that were convicted of that murder. Spota prosecuted that case. And now Burke is the Chief of the Dept, that came about after Spota and he arranged for Levy to step aside.

Yeah, this is a real ACCREDITED POLICE DEPT. Now all the pieces of the puzzle in the Gilgo investigation have been put in place to ensure those that may have been derelict in this case will go on without review.

oops - sorry - I called Detective Vincent Steven ---- detective McCarthy -
don't know why - tha'ts that happens when you have the night shift....sorry.

here is a link to the letter detective vincent steven wrote.


http://www.newsday.com/opinion/letters/letter-all-out-effort-for-shannan-1.3473520

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

so - to be fair.

here is the link of the letter from detective vincent steven.....to newsday
from jan., 23, 2012
saying shannan was calm and not in danger....

http://www.newsday.com/opinion/letters/letter-all-out-effort-for-shannan-1.3473520

and here is the link to watch the presser from when the Gilbert family met with the medical examiner in which Gilbert's lawyer - Johnny Ray specifically says that Shannan was specifically stating she was in danger of her life being taken from her by her driver and the john......

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64vNIyC0a3g&feature=share"]Family wants answers after Shannan Gilbert's autopsy's ruled - YouTube[/ame]

Ray states that there is no evidence of a drowning.
Ray states that there was a skuffle taking place - and Shannan is actually screaming in parts of the recording - and after the skuffle - there are sounds of Shannan running away.


I don't understand why the attorney for the Gilbert family hasn't done anything
other than two pressers. One after Shannan's body was found at Oak Beach and the presser after the ME results were released to the family.

Why havent any lawsuits been slapped on people?

 

[Adler]

Walk down Anchor Way and look at the looming vertical hedge of thorns along the east side of the road and you will see why that is not the likely case.

(btw, there is no "swamp")

Let's see: Can we now agree that is was not pitch dark when the last 911 call was made? Can we now agree that it is unlikely that SG ran into an impenetrable mass of hedge and thorns? In the unlikelihood that she did, and fell, she would have been able to make her way back to the street. In the unlikelihood that she succumbed to paradoxical undressing, the associative paradoxical burrowing phenomenon would suggest that she would have also been found very close to her discarded clothes--not 1/4 of a mile away--by the road from which 10 other remains were coincidentally later found. If, however, Hurricane Irene disrupted proposed hypothetical drowning victim's final location, and carried skeletal remains 1/4 mile away, would not more than a hyoid bone be missing? Would not the skeletal remains be more scattered and almost impossible to find?

Let's agree on this: If SC entered the marsh, it was just about daylight, and she would not be running in the direction of any distant street light, such as those on the RM Bridge. If SC entered the marsh, lost her clothes, she would have turned back to Anchor Way because the prickly brambles and thorns would otherwise scratch her skin and hurt her arms, legs, feet otherwise. Probably, SC did not run into the marsh to begin at all. She continued down Anchor Way towards Larboard Ct. There is a curve in the road there. What is just around the bend?

I am not from NJ or NY and have never been to Oak Beach. Has anybody ever drowned in the marshes there? Any record of that? Ever?

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

Let's see: Can we now agree that is was not pitch dark when the last 911 call was made? Can we now agree that it is unlikely that SG ran into an impenetrable mass of hedge and thorns? In the unlikelihood that she did, and fell, she would have been able to make her way back to the street. In the unlikelihood that she succumbed to paradoxical undressing, the associative paradoxical burrowing phenomenon would suggest that she would have also been found very close to her discarded clothes--not 1/4 of a mile away--by the road from which 10 other remains were coincidentally later found. If, however, Hurricane Irene disrupted proposed hypothetical drowning victim's final location, and carried skeletal remains 1/4 mile away, would not more than a hyoid bone be missing? Would not the skeletal remains be more scattered and almost impossible to find?

Let's agree on this: If SC entered the marsh, it was just about daylight, and she would not be running in the direction of any distant street light, such as those on the RM Bridge. If SC entered the marsh, lost her clothes, she would have turned back to Anchor Way because the prickly brambles and thorns would otherwise scratch her skin and hurt her arms, legs, feet otherwise. Probably, SC did not run into the marsh to begin at all. She continued down Anchor Way towards Larboard Ct. There is a curve in the road there. What is just around the bend?

I am not from NJ or NY and have never been to Oak Beach. Has anybody ever drowned in the marshes there? Any record of that? Ever?

it has been stated by the police commissioner of suffolk county that shannan DROWNED ... and he said it repeatedly BEFORE any body was found. then when the body was found - the commish said she drowned LONG before the medical examiner reviewed any forensic evidence.

Johnny Ray has stated AFTER meeting with the ME that shannan DID not drown..... so WHY did the police commissioner repeatedly state emphamatically that little Shannan drowned? kind of bizarre, isnt it?

 

[PickleChris]

it has been stated by the police commissioner of suffolk county that shannan DROWNED ... and he said it repeatedly BEFORE any body was found. then when the body was found - the commish said she drowned LONG before the medical examiner reviewed any forensic evidence.

Johnny Ray has stated AFTER meeting with the ME that shannan DID not drown..... so WHY did the police commissioner repeatedly state emphamatically that little Shannan drowned? kind of bizarre, isnt it?

\

Maybe I'm slow but who is Johnny Ray? I have never heard that name before.

 

[Adler]

it has been stated by the police commissioner of suffolk county that shannan DROWNED ... and he said it repeatedly BEFORE any body was found. then when the body was found - the commish said she drowned LONG before the medical examiner reviewed any forensic evidence.

Johnny Ray has stated AFTER meeting with the ME that shannan DID not drown..... so WHY did the police commissioner repeatedly state emphamatically that little Shannan drowned? kind of bizarre, isnt it?

Yes.

btw, what else was found, and where? What about her other earring? Any burlap by the Parkway?

We know that the LISK has a thing about cell phones, right? That's a fact. He's got a thing about communicating that is quite odd. Is there anybody else in OB whom shares a known (documented) oddity regarding phone communication? If so, where does he live? Was he in OB the night SG disappeared?

Does anybody here think somebody paid neighbors hush money?

Finally, could it be that anybody in SCPD feels that he owes a longlived favor to anybody in OB? Perhaps for once saving an officer's life? For responding to a heart attack victim, or something like that?

(Just throwing out some thoughts)

 

[Redbird]

oops - sorry - I called Detective Vincent Steven ---- detective McCarthy -
don't know why - tha'ts that happens when you have the night shift....sorry.

here is a link to the letter detective vincent steven wrote.


http://www.newsday.com/opinion/letters/letter-all-out-effort-for-shannan-1.3473520

These are just a few of the early reports that Shannan was hysterical and not calm as Detective Steven claims years after the fact.

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2010/12/missing_jersey_city_woman_shan.html
Missing Jersey City woman Shannon Gilbert was 'delirious' when last seen on Long Island in May

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2010/12/boyfriend_and_the_driver_of_sh.html
Boyfriend and the driver of Shannon Maria Gilbert recount hours just before Jersey City woman went missing

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/unsolved/long-island-ripper/shannan-gilbert.html

http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/gilbert-vanishing-reaches-one-year-mark-1.2849214

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/04...beach-as-part-of-serial-killer-investigation/

 

[Peter Brendt]

NYPD has been investigating the case for 33 years and were no closer to solving it than we they were when Patz disappeared 33 years ago.

All of the theories of the police and the pundits have been erased in the blink of an eye, assuming the information we now know is TRUe.

I used to use the Patz case as an example for bad profiling for the last two decades. Their original suspect LIVED in the area. Hew would have driven away to fetch somewhere else a kid. Because failing to do so brought him the first conviction.
I guess, after they now found out, it was someone WORKING in the area but not living there, I can't use that case anymore as bad example. Oh ... wait, 33 years, maybe I still can ...

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

Are we really in the umpteenth loop of the Oak Beach Conspiracy theory? I can still remember the first loops before SG was found and a lot of people were so certain, she would be found along the parkway. Certain enough to jump on everyone who said, she is somewhere in the marsh, between the point where Coletti saw her and the road.
So, once more the facts:

- She had time to make at least an 18 minute call to 911 (which for unknown reasons grew in length over the 18 moths to a length of 22 and 23 minutes. I saw in the internet the first 25 minute phone calls now, so the growing hasn't stopped yet)

- during this time, obviously nobody tried to kill her. There was allegedly (I never heard the complete tape, so I can only call it 'allegedly' a scuffle at the end. This is consistent with what JB stated. He said, he tried to ge the phone from her and she ran out.

- She was out because Coletti saw her outside. Conspiracy theoretics bridge that gap by declaring the witness has to be in on "it" or paid to say, what he says. For which of course not the faintest evidence exists.

- SG was found in the marsh, nearer to the road than to OB.

- The body was not moved, otherwise it would have been notable on remains of tendon, loss of more small bones and of course the nitrate level of the soil under her.

- Hurricane Irene didn't move her either. She was in a marsh, i.e. surrounded by thicket. Those bushes are half flexible so they don't get uprooted by strong winds but still spend some wind shadow. Human remains on the ground are mostly relative flat. It's not that dead people stand on their feet to give a storm sail area. And seriously, the sail area of skeletal remains would be limited anyway.

- however, what Irene did, was raining on the area. Like a lot of storms under hurricane strength did as well.

- The statements of JB, MP and Coletti are consistent and so is the timeline. Coletti corroborates, he saw MP looking for SG who fled into the marsh.

- Dormer was stupid to state, she has drowned. It appeared probably as likely to him at the time because people from the neighborhood state, the area was sometimes flooded. But since Dormer put out form the start always stupid things, I tend to write him off as someone who aggrandized himself without knowing what he was talking about.

So, putting this all together, I still think, SG ran into the marsh on her won, driven by drug influence and a good paranoia caused by a mix, she as unused to. That doesn't necessarily mean, there was no attempt to cover up this accident. It would be human understandable reaction to feel panic if someone, who was in your house, dies under such circumstances. But it was no murder.

Lets put together the weak side of this Oak Beach Conspiracy theory:
To make it work, you have to assume, not only JB, MP, the Drifter and Coletti wewre in on it, but also all neighbors of those four. And this is not enough, you would also need to include Dormer, Spota, half of the Suffolk PD and the ME on the pay list of this theoretical Oak Beach resident from Hell. Even more, you would need to argue, SG didn't die where she was found her bones were planted long after, which would force you to include one or two of the top forensic anthropologists in the world in your conspiracy to make this happen in a credible form.
So, no way, I will buy in that. A good paranoia is no prove, nobody is on someone's heels, true. But there are logical and physical limits to that.

Peter

 

[Seaslug44]

\

Maybe I'm slow but who is Johnny Ray? I have never heard that name before.

This is John Ray-

He's the attorney who is representing the Gilbert family.

And here is his faithful assistant Vesselin Mitev;

And here is a nice review of them and their firm;

White Collar Crook , Careless Attorney, Lack of Experience, Poor Skills

 

[Adler]

Are we really in the umpteenth loop of the Oak Beach Conspiracy theory? I can still remember the first loops before SG was found and a lot of people were so certain, she would be found along the parkway. Certain enough to jump on everyone who said, she is somewhere in the marsh, between the point where Coletti saw her and the road.
So, once more the facts:

- She had time to make at least an 18 minute call to 911 (which for unknown reasons grew in length over the 18 moths to a length of 22 and 23 minutes. I saw in the internet the first 25 minute phone calls now, so the growing hasn't stopped yet)

- during this time, obviously nobody tried to kill her. There was allegedly (I never heard the complete tape, so I can only call it 'allegedly' a scuffle at the end. This is consistent with what JB stated. He said, he tried to ge the phone from her and she ran out.

- She was out because Coletti saw her outside. Conspiracy theoretics bridge that gap by declaring the witness has to be in on "it" or paid to say, what he says. For which of course not the faintest evidence exists.

- SG was found in the marsh, nearer to the road than to OB.

- The body was not moved, otherwise it would have been notable on remains of tendon, loss of more small bones and of course the nitrate level of the soil under her.

- Hurricane Irene didn't move her either. She was in a marsh, i.e. surrounded by thicket. Those bushes are half flexible so they don't get uprooted by strong winds but still spend some wind shadow. Human remains on the ground are mostly relative flat. It's not that dead people stand on their feet to give a storm sail area. And seriously, the sail area of skeletal remains would be limited anyway.

- however, what Irene did, was raining on the area. Like a lot of storms under hurricane strength did as well.

- The statements of JB, MP and Coletti are consistent and so is the timeline. Coletti corroborates, he saw MP looking for SG who fled into the marsh.

- Dormer was stupid to state, she has drowned. It appeared probably as likely to him at the time because people from the neighborhood state, the area was sometimes flooded. But since Dormer put out form the start always stupid things, I tend to write him off as someone who aggrandized himself without knowing what he was talking about.

So, putting this all together, I still think, SG ran into the marsh on her won, driven by drug influence and a good paranoia caused by a mix, she as unused to. That doesn't necessarily mean, there was no attempt to cover up this accident. It would be human understandable reaction to feel panic if someone, who was in your house, dies under such circumstances. But it was no murder.

Lets put together the weak side of this Oak Beach Conspiracy theory:
To make it work, you have to assume, not only JB, MP, the Drifter and Coletti wewre in on it, but also all neighbors of those four. And this is not enough, you would also need to include Dormer, Spota, half of the Suffolk PD and the ME on the pay list of this theoretical Oak Beach resident from Hell. Even more, you would need to argue, SG didn't die where she was found her bones were planted long after, which would force you to include one or two of the top forensic anthropologists in the world in your conspiracy to make this happen in a credible form.
So, no way, I will buy in that. A good paranoia is no prove, nobody is on someone's heels, true. But there are logical and physical limits to that.

Peter

Fair enough. Let's put the conspiracy theory to rest. How many adult males live in OB? Fifty? Any way to administer polygraphs, to rule out foul play, on a resident-by-resident basis?

 

[Adler]

These are just a few of the early reports that Shannan was hysterical and not calm as Detective Steven claims years after the fact.

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2010/12/missing_jersey_city_woman_shan.html
Missing Jersey City woman Shannon Gilbert was 'delirious' when last seen on Long Island in May

http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2010/12/boyfriend_and_the_driver_of_sh.html
Boyfriend and the driver of Shannon Maria Gilbert recount hours just before Jersey City woman went missing

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/unsolved/long-island-ripper/shannan-gilbert.html

http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/gilbert-vanishing-reaches-one-year-mark-1.2849214

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/04...beach-as-part-of-serial-killer-investigation/

That's one grossly pompous letter from Det. Stephen, isn't it? Personally, I do not think the police dept. plays favorites according to what profession their 911 callers are involved in; however, I do believe socio-economic factors influence whether they get off their butts and do the job they are paid to do in lieu of whining about it. SC's mother had to prompt the dept. to go and fetch her daughter. She knew! When investigators showed up at Coletti's four months after his 911 call, he asked, "Where have you been? What took you so long?" No, this has less to do with nasty pervasive attitudes about prostitution and more to do with the subtle distinctions between behavior toward blue collar and upper crust tax payers. Stephans and SCPD owe the Gilbert family an apology. They blew it!

 

[Peter Brendt]

Fair enough. Let's put the conspiracy theory to rest. How many adult males live in OB? Fifty? Any way to administer polygraphs, to rule out foul play, on a resident-by-resident basis?

Not the way, I understand the Constitution of the United States of America. And the most interesting person in all of this had already a lie detector test and it was inconclusive, probably because at one point, he told the truth and they couldn't believe it. That's the "no intention to have sex with SG" line,m Brewer stated. I believe him, he had no intention to have sex with her. His intentions were rather to watch someone else having sex with her. Therefore the drifter in the house.

Peter

 

[Adler]

Not the way, I understand the Constitution of the United States of America. And the most interesting person in all of this had already a lie detector test and it was inconclusive, probably because at one point, he told the truth and they couldn't believe it. That's the "no intention to have sex with SG" line,m Brewer stated. I believe him, he had no intention to have sex with her. His intentions were rather to watch someone else having sex with her. Therefore the drifter in the house.

Peter

Perhaps SCPD could appeal to the residents of OB and ask those fifty or so residents to undergo polygraphs on a volunteer basis.
Regarding JB:
Good points. I believe Brewer, too. His account is credible where it needs to be credible. Where is the drifter now? Anybody else at his house that night?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Perhaps SCPD could appeal to the residents of OB and ask those fifty or so residents to undergo polygraphs on a volunteer basis.
Regarding JB:
Good points. I believe Brewer, too. His account is credible where it needs to be credible. Where is the drifter now? Anybody else at his house that night?

There was something about the drifter in one of the threads here at WS a year ago, but I forgot where. And no idea where he is now. According to KB, MP and as I understand it, the drifter, SG was in the house but nobody else.
"Voluntary" would only work if it's really voluntary, e.g. nobody knows who agreed and who not to avoid stigmata in the community. Otherwise, I'm not really a fan of the idea to treat a number of people as guilty till proven innocent only to prove or dismiss a theory which is already in most details proven wrong and for with an aim that is probably miles of the target anyway. LISK does not live in Oak Beach.

Peter

 

[WINDSOR]

Lie detector/polygraphs are notoriously unreliable,

Read about Aldrich Ames CIA employee working for the Russians. Twice he passed the best CIA lie detector test.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Lie detector/polygraphs are notoriously unreliable,

Read about Aldrich Ames CIA employee working for the Russians. Twice he passed the best CIA lie detector test.

Except for the fact, that Aldritch Ames was tested like 50 years earlier and two times trained, first by the Western experts than the Eastern experts to be able to do exactly that.
The extremity of the examples show in a way the desperation of the cause. However, what is a problem is the interpretation of the results.

Peter

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

This is John Ray-

He's the attorney who is representing the Gilbert family.

And here is his faithful assistant Vesselin Mitev;

And here is a nice review of them and their firm;

White Collar Crook , Careless Attorney, Lack of Experience, Poor Skills

All the attorney for Mari has done is two pressers regarding this case.
That's it.

Its time for him to start generating some lawsuits......