Shannan Gilbert's 23 Minute 911 Call #2

[White_Rabbit]

It’s true Shannan remained able to communicate during the 911 call, but the fact that she was audibly terrified for an extended period, repeatedly insisting someone was trying to kill her, and fled the house barefoot into the darkness, does reflect signs consistent with a panic or anxiety attack. Panic attacks can occur without loss of rational speech, and many people remain oriented enough to call for help while experiencing overwhelming dread and a powerful fight-or-flight response.

In Shannan’s case, the prolonged fear response, flight behavior, and repeated statements that she was in imminent danger all point toward panic.

 

[TOMBISHOP]

Yes, we can make more than one hypothesis... ranging from Pak to Hackett to the two, along with the collaboration of third parties, or even RH, because it's not that unlikely in my opinion either...
Trying to stick to the few confusing elements we have, what really makes me pause for a moment, my constant thought, is the location of her personal items, including her pants!
I find this very strange, and for this reason, I wouldn't rule out an attempted first assault in which Shannon may have managed to break free and run away, only to be caught shortly after and loaded into a car and it would make more sense if the clothes were found there, At that point, she could have been dumped even more than a night later.
I, however, find it unlikely that the killer would enter the Oak Beach community to dump Shannon's items, risking being seen...
unless he were a resident, but in that case, it wouldn't make sense for him to go around the street to dump the body when he could have dragged it into the swamp like he did with the rest of Shannon's belongings...

Something always seems to be off, as if the chess pieces were placed incorrectly.

 

[TOMBISHOP]

No - but I will have a closer look. Bbiab

Edit: this is my source:

The location where Shannan Gilbert was found

In December 2011, the remains of missing sex worker Shannan Gilbert were found in this marsh near Oak Beach on Long Island.

oddstops.com

Even if 36 meters is correct, the terrain is intractable.

Thanks, this link is fantastic, there are also coordinates... and I checked them with the photos always comparing them with the various shots over time on Google Earth in those years and they seem very accurate... this shows that even Kolker's positioning does not seem correct but further away in the swamp

 

[snarast]

Thanks, this link is fantastic, there are also coordinates... and I checked them with the photos always comparing them with the various shots over time on Google Earth in those years and they seem very accurate... this shows that even Kolker's positioning does not seem correct but further away in the swamp

Do you have an idea if 36m is reasonable? I think the terrain - from what I see seems to go up from the parkway and then down toward where Shannan was found. I imagine that must be major mosquito heaven certain times of the year.

The place was chosen to disguise her more than to sit there amidst the victim’s bones looking out over the sea - like G4 seems to have been arranged.

 

[TOMBISHOP]

Do you have an idea if 36m is reasonable? I think the terrain - from what I see seems to go up from the parkway and then down toward where Shannan was found. I imagine that must be major mosquito heaven certain times of the year.

The place was chosen to disguise her more than to sit there amidst the victim’s bones looking out over the sea - like G4 seems to have been arranged.

Personally, I think it's more difficult to enter the swamp from the road...
I can't shake the idea that Shannon got there from the basketball court trail, which is west just after the Oak Beach residential entrance., as if she was trying to leave that area heading towards the only road she had entered from, perhaps to ask for help but probably chased and found to hide, she ran towards the little road of the basketball court and then took the path of the swamp...however, seeing the Ocean Parkway nearby and trying to skirt it from the swamp hoping to find a way to get there from there while they were chasing her... but finding death.
Using the historical satellite mode and the modern 3D effect on Google Earth you can get a better idea of what the swamp looks like.
If you also look, the search vehicles entered from the Ocean Parkway much further ahead due to the impervious terrain of brambles and trees along the roadside.
Crossing the swamp, while difficult, can be made easier by the start of the trail and by those kind of canals that are there. I'm not sure what to call them, but you can always see them from satellite images.
All I can think is that someone just hunted her like prey... and left it there to hide once everything was done because the hunting spot was already perfect as a hiding place too.
But even risking everything I just said I don't understand why the clothes are further south.

 

[Ruminations]

It’s true Shannan remained able to communicate during the 911 call, but the fact that she was audibly terrified for an extended period, repeatedly insisting someone was trying to kill her, and fled the house barefoot into the darkness, does reflect signs consistent with a panic or anxiety attack. Panic attacks can occur without loss of rational speech, and many people remain oriented enough to call for help while experiencing overwhelming dread and a powerful fight-or-flight response.

In Shannan’s case, the prolonged fear response, flight behavior, and repeated statements that she was in imminent danger all point toward panic.

Isn't it the more obvious conclusion that someone was trying to kill her?

How many people call 911, say somebody's after them, scream in terror, run by a house where someone says she's being followed, then end up dead, separated from their pants?

On the other hand, why wouldn't Brewer or Pak themselves try to get her help from her panic attack? Why not say "My neighbor is a doctor. I'll call him now to help you?"

IMO, too many mental gymnastics are required to think that Pak and Brewer were not knowingly leading her to danger, if not endangering her themselves. It is the most logical and typical explanation for her repeating that she is in danger. Neither Pak nor Brewer express concern nor give aid; it appears they did not think she was having a panic attack either.

I don't believe she was barefoot, FWIW.


MOO

Edited to add: She did not exhibit random flight behavior. She was being asked to go outside, and she was avoiding that. That's avoidance, not flight. She carefully avoided going outside, called 911 trying to keep it a secret and perhaps hoping that seeing police would cause the danger to go away, She asked to keep the door closed. She did not seem as scared of Pak early in the call as she was late in it. She wanted to go home, he wanted to bring her somewhere else or let her stay with the outside danger. In short, it's not like she panicked and ran. She was adjusting to her environment, not responding to things in her head. MOO.

 

[Ruminations]

Personally, I think it's more difficult to enter the swamp from the road...
I can't shake the idea that Shannon got there from the basketball court trail, which is west just after the Oak Beach residential entrance., as if she was trying to leave that area heading towards the only road she had entered from, perhaps to ask for help but probably chased and found to hide, she ran towards the little road of the basketball court and then took the path of the swamp...however, seeing the Ocean Parkway nearby and trying to skirt it from the swamp hoping to find a way to get there from there while they were chasing her... but finding death.
Using the historical satellite mode and the modern 3D effect on Google Earth you can get a better idea of what the swamp looks like.
If you also look, the search vehicles entered from the Ocean Parkway much further ahead due to the impervious terrain of brambles and trees along the roadside.
Crossing the swamp, while difficult, can be made easier by the start of the trail and by those kind of canals that are there. I'm not sure what to call them, but you can always see them from satellite images.
All I can think is that someone just hunted her like prey... and left it there to hide once everything was done because the hunting spot was already perfect as a hiding place too.
But even risking everything I just said I don't understand why the clothes are further south.

Hmmm. Interesting thought about the basketball area, but I'm not sure I can make it work with other information. It would have taken her too long. The police were slow, but not that slow. And it was getting light. She woukd have to be traveling through the marsh. while residents were telling the police she was gone. In daylight. I suppose they might find her dead after that? But, again, why not call 911 and report the find.

Also, if she just ran, walked away and died, what made Hackett call Mari to say he treated her? How did he get involved and invested?

MOO

 

[TOMBISHOP]

Hmmm. Interesting thought about the basketball area, but I'm not sure I can make it work with other information. It would have taken her too long. The police were slow, but not that slow. And it was getting light. She woukd have to be traveling through the marsh. while residents were telling the police she was gone. In daylight. I suppose they might find her dead after that? But, again, why not call 911 and report the find.

Also, if she just ran, walked away and died, what made Hackett call Mari to say he treated her? How did he get involved and invested?

MOO

Yes, it's just a hypothesis in my head... Dr. Hackett is definitely another "loose cannon" to be solved, and I think he's definitely connected in some way to the story.
Unfortunately, we don't know what role he actually played...
Regarding the timing, I don't think it's that impossible.
We're talking about only about 300 meters, of which the first bit was clearly a well-worn path, and that seems to be a more passable part of the swamp than the areas where there was more water. It's certainly not a pleasant experience, but if you feel like you're in mortal danger, you definitely do it... and perhaps it's still dark enough for the killer, because I checked that dawn was around 5:45, when the police arrived.

 

[Ruminations]

Yes, it's just a hypothesis in my head... Dr. Hackett is definitely another "loose cannon" to be solved, and I think he's definitely connected in some way to the story.
Unfortunately, we don't know what role he actually played...
Regarding the timing, I don't think it's that impossible.
We're talking about only about 300 meters, of which the first bit was clearly a well-worn path, and that seems to be a more passable part of the swamp than the areas where there was more water. It's certainly not a pleasant experience, but if you feel like you're in mortal danger, you definitely do it... and perhaps it's still dark enough for the killer, because I checked that dawn was around 5:45, when the police arrived.

lol, I'm not sure the well-worn paths are exactly that, but OTOH, the marsh wasn't that impassable, either.

For certain, going a distance would leave evidence: mud , scratches, rashes, bites. Especially if entering impulsively without proper clothing and gear. If anyone were in that marsh and seen the next day or two, I think there would be welts and other evidence on them.

There is good video of people walking, or talking about walking in it. Particularly, the killing season and John Ray talk about what it is like to be in that exact marsh in particular.

MOO

 

[TOMBISHOP]

Here's the path from an image (before the search and clearing of the land) I'm talking about. I followed it with a white dotted line. It's definitely more passable at first, but it looks exactly like it is for me, and it gets very close to the discovery site.
I hope the image is clear enough, otherwise I'll upload a higher-quality one.

 

[TOMBISHOP]

lol, I'm not sure the well-worn paths are exactly that, but OTOH, the marsh wasn't that impassable, either.

For certain, going a distance would leave evidence: mud , scratches, rashes, bites. Especially if entering impulsively without proper clothing and gear. If anyone were in that marsh and seen the next day or two, I think there would be welts and other evidence on them.

There is good video of people walking, or talking about walking in it. Particularly, the killing season and John Ray talk about what it is like to be in that exact marsh in particular.

MOO

I used the term path, maybe it's not the most correct in your language... I've seen many photos of the swamp and also documentaries when Josh and Rachel go into it but they didn't follow this one also because when they went the police had already cleared the area to the north where it passed.

 

[WINDSOR]

Most of us have a general theory of what likely happened that night. A number of us believe that Shannan was a victim of a criminal assault that eventually led to her death.

Unfortunately without truthful and honest statements from the SCPD, Brewer, Pak and Hackett we will likely never know the truth.

Most of us sleuthers are not 'crazies' and if we believe something is not right, why does the community leadership, and the elected politicians, not see the same things?

There are Politicians and Prosecutors in Long Island, and the State of New York who have the power and the ability to re-open this case and fully investigate it. I know it sounds like a Biblical Plea,
"Are there no good and just men and women in this place?"

 

[Ruminations]

I used the term path, maybe it's not the most correct in your language... I've seen many photos of the swamp and also documentaries when Josh and Rachel go into it but they didn't follow this one also because when they went the police had already cleared the area to the north where it passed.

I don't know if she still holds this theory, but Shannan's sister speculated that she was captured and sedated and killed accidentally during this. Then her body was dumped.

On one hand, I like how that theory supports a group effort all around Oak Beachon this murder theory, because several people would have reason to all cooperate and cover for one another, because more than one person would feel that perhaps they took the fatal action. It does make Hackett's entry and interest in this case understandable.

On the other hand, it fails to explain her separation from her pants.

The fact that she was ducking under a boat when 911 had an address, then she was banging on Barbara Brennens door, apparently not sedated at that point, with her pants still on...then, how long until the police arrived? I'll have to go back to see a time line. IIRC there was some discrepancy about the exact cruiser arrival time. Hopefully, there is a firm answer to that.

How much distance could she travel before the police arrived? And when were her pants removed? When would a sedative be administered? Why would she continue to walk away after the sedative?

MOO

 

[Ruminations]

Gilgo Case - Shannan Gilbert

A timeline of the night Shannan Gilbert disappeared - 5/1/2010

www.gilgocase.com

So, at 5:24 Shannan is at Barbara Brennens house. Twilight had already begun. And this is very low ground, no large trees, no tall building terrain with the Atlantic Ocean and a rather clear sky giving the sun every advantage to illuminate the area. At that hour, its dark enough indoors to need lights, but it is not dark outside.

If the police were there at 5:45, that gives Shannan 21 minutes to separate from her pants, interact in some way with Hackett, and disappear.

MOO

 

[White_Rabbit]

Isn't it the more obvious conclusion that someone was trying to kill her?

How many people call 911, say somebody's after them, scream in terror, run by a house where someone says she's being followed, then end up dead, separated from their pants?

On the other hand, why wouldn't Brewer or Pak themselves try to get her help from her panic attack? Why not say "My neighbor is a doctor. I'll call him now to help you?"

IMO, too many mental gymnastics are required to think that Pak and Brewer were not knowingly leading her to danger, if not endangering her themselves. It is the most logical and typical explanation for her repeating that she is in danger. Neither Pak nor Brewer express concern nor give aid; it appears they did not think she was having a panic attack either.

I don't believe she was barefoot, FWIW.


MOO

Edited to add: She did not exhibit random flight behavior. She was being asked to go outside, and she was avoiding that. That's avoidance, not flight. She carefully avoided going outside, called 911 trying to keep it a secret and perhaps hoping that seeing police would cause the danger to go away, She asked to keep the door closed. She did not seem as scared of Pak early in the call as she was late in it. She wanted to go home, he wanted to bring her somewhere else or let her stay with the outside danger. In short, it's not like she panicked and ran. She was adjusting to her environment, not responding to things in her head. MOO.

Shannan most certainly believed she was in danger. Whether or not there was actually someone pursuing her, her fear was absolutely real to her in that moment.

I also think it’s very plausible that Brewer and Pak didn’t want to involve the police or take her to a hospital because doing so would have exposed them to legal problems (i.e. solicitation, transporting a sex worker, drugs, etc). That reluctance doesn’t necessarily prove they were planning harm, but it does explain why they acted so passively when a normal person would call for help.

As for Peter Hackett, his involvement only complicates things further. The fact that he inserted himself into the situation, claimed he “helped” her, then denied it, is hard to ignore.

 

[Ruminations]

Shannan most certainly believed she was in danger. Whether or not there was actually someone pursuing her, her fear was absolutely real to her in that moment.

I also think it’s very plausible that Brewer and Pak didn’t want to involve the police or take her to a hospital because doing so would have exposed them to legal problems (i.e. solicitation, transporting a sex worker, drugs, etc). That reluctance doesn’t necessarily prove they were planning harm, but it does explain why they acted so passively when a normal person would call for help.

As for Peter Hackett, his involvement only complicates things further. The fact that he inserted himself into the situation, claimed he “helped” her, then denied it, is hard to ignore.

Brewer, in particular, appeared to have no fear of the police. Pak did keep correcting the record. When Shannan said "home," he said "Manhattan." But realistically, Shannan was the most vulnerable legally that night, and there was no reason for her to volunteer that she was selling sex, and no reason for Brewer to volunteer that he was buying it. It would be rather obvious that it was taking place, but nearly impossible to prove without a statement.

MOO

 

[snarast]

Isn't it the more obvious conclusion that someone was trying to kill her?

How many people call 911, say somebody's after them, scream in terror, run by a house where someone says she's being followed, then end up dead, separated from their pants?

On the other hand, why wouldn't Brewer or Pak themselves try to get her help from her panic attack? Why not say "My neighbor is a doctor. I'll call him now to help you?"

IMO, too many mental gymnastics are required to think that Pak and Brewer were not knowingly leading her to danger, if not endangering her themselves. It is the most logical and typical explanation for her repeating that she is in danger. Neither Pak nor Brewer express concern nor give aid; it appears they did not think she was having a panic attack either.

I don't believe she was barefoot, FWIW.


MOO

Edited to add: She did not exhibit random flight behavior. She was being asked to go outside, and she was avoiding that. That's avoidance, not flight. She carefully avoided going outside, called 911 trying to keep it a secret and perhaps hoping that seeing police would cause the danger to go away, She asked to keep the door closed. She did not seem as scared of Pak early in the call as she was late in it. She wanted to go home, he wanted to bring her somewhere else or let her stay with the outside danger. In short, it's not like she panicked and ran. She was adjusting to her environment, not responding to things in her head. MOO.

John Ray said she may have come from somewhere else to Brewers’ house, if I heard correctly. What if she had been put under and simply regained consciousness sooner than expected.

That makes her reactions even more understandable. She’d wake up and wonder wtf. And She would know FOR SURE she had been set up. And that this was not good.

 

[Ruminations]

John Ray said she came from somewhere else to Brewers’ house. What if she had been put under and simply regained consciousness sooner than expected.

That makes her reactions even more understandable. She would know FOR SURE she had been set up.

She did spend a lot of time there. Interesting thought.

(Edit to add Maybe Pak slipped whatever he takes before lie detector tests into her drink.

MOO

 

[snooptroop88]

After years, facts and fiction can get intertwined confusing.
-The alleged visit to CVS, I believe was confirmed early on, by statements of both Pak and Brewer. Some one will have to go through the posts to confirm.
-Coletti, did not allow Shannan into his house, as he stated he was concerned with having her in his house. At the time Coletti was an elderly gentleman, to me this was prudent behavior. Regarding Coletti, a number of people have implied that he was somehow criminally involved. I believe this is an error in judgement. All his actions, appear correct and prudent towards Shannan. He called the Police, he told Shannan to stay at his home, and he waited at the gate to allow the police in, after she ran from his home.

That he didn't let her into that house is a critical piece of information in my mind. I think whatever SG was afraid of was outside and highly mobile, and she knew it. Coletti leaving her where she was-- she was probably in more danger stationary on a porch than she would be if she simply gave up and fled elsewhere-- which she ultimately did. SG sensed she needed to get inside a safe place and fast. Taking time to explain her situation on the porch was quite dangerous to her, and I don't think it was a phantom fear, I think there WAS someone lurking and stalking SG that night. And with every second that passed on every porch, I'm sure SG was doing her own assessment of how safe she'd really be there once inside, depending on the level of skepticism-- towards her-- that she may have picked up on. But agreed this is not the fault of Coletti.

I just have a feeling SG didn't feel she was finding anyone that was taking her fears seriously. And I think the fact that her "official" cause of death even now is "accidental" is clear evidence that she was probably right.

 

[Keleah]

So why do you think Shannan didn't want to leave?

I think she knew the plan was to eliminate her. She was maybe also on coke or meth and in a state of stress/ trauma and so panicked that she was also frozen because she felt/knew that where ever she went, she was going to the same destination. She alsi knew some of nypd & so maybe she knew that they were not going to be able to save her either. That’s what that call sounded like to me.