Shootin' From the Lip--Part 3

[Venom]

I keep hoping that this case could be re-tried, but I have to wonder if AH destroyed, or took pertinent evidence with him when he retired? I think the Cold Case Team should go back and check into what remaining evidence is still there. They need to find out how many items had DNA or TDNA - like the rope, the big spoon, etc. Some testing may have been done that AH decided to ignore. Wasn't it AH who decided what evidence the GJ should be aware of, and what people they should question?
I would think that SG would surely want to know - it would be a big feather in his hat to solve this case.

If they would find that some things weren't tested, they could order testing to be done, right?

 

[tezi]

If they would find that some things weren't tested, they could order testing to be done, right?

Yes, they could.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

We'll agree to disagree. I do think it goes through potential child murdering parent's minds whether they could get away with it and they tote up the list of those who DO get away with it before considering other options like giving up their children. But thats just my opinion.:moo:

I just don't think most child murders (by parents) are planned out to that degree. It seems that most children, who are killed by their parents, are killed when abuse goes "too far" one day, or in some fit of rage, or the parent has major psychiatric problems (Andrea Yates). I think the type of case you described (where the parent is doing research into other cases, and then makes the decision to kill their child) isn't common at all, and probably represents a small % of all child murders....

Although I don't understand why anyone would think because the R's got away with it, so would they? The R's had money and connections.

 

[MissJ]

I was thinking more of the Susan Smith, Casey Anthony and Darlie Routier type of murder where they just want to be rid of their child for whatever reason. Immature and self centered types. There are way too many who kill their children. It seems to me the number is growing but maybe its just that I am more aware of it now. JMO

 

[Mama2JML]

This thought hit me last week or so about the miniscule samples of 2 males/1 female DNA found underneath JBR's fingernails:

The entire family was at a dinner party Christmas night. There may have been other kids there both male & female that JBR was playing with. With the way that kids....like little kids who use their fingers/hands to wipe their snotty little noses...chase/grab/pinch/tag/scratch, etc. each other while running around on a holiday high, perhaps that fingernail DNA resulted from some good ol' fashioned kids-with-a-winter-cold harmless fun.

We have been told that after the dinner party JBR fell asleep in the car on the way home and was then carried upstairs to bed. Since she WAS half asleep at that point we can probably assume that she did NOT wash up nor take a bath/shower before PR put on her nightclothes and tucked her in. So JBR went to sleep with unwashed hands/body. Also, I believe we can safely assume that perhaps some, or perhaps even all of the ADULTS at that party might have been DNA tested, but doing DNA testing on a bunch of little KIDS? I highly doubt it.....but, I could be wrong. It sure wouldn't be the first time in my 57 years here on this earth ;-)

And if we REALLY wanna spin this scenario outta control, since JBR probably DIDN'T bathe before bedtime and there WAS a "mixed presence of male DNA" from the blood sample found in her underwear, who knows whether any adult(s) at that party had any one-on-one "alone time" with JBR. Hey, ya never know. Nothing surprises me anymore about this case.

And lastly, I do wonder about one thing:

Does anyone know of any other child kidnappings/homicides that occurred in the Boulder area subsequent to, and even more importantly, strikingly similar to JBR's? Hmmmmm, none ya say?

Well then, so much for PR's theory about a baby killer on the loose

BBM

There is an unsolved sexual assault case with some parallels to the Ramsey case. We're discussing it in the IDI thread. Here's a link to some general info:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682445/Acquaintance Intruder Theories

 

[borndem]

I found that odd too. Wouldn't all people that were in the house at the time be called to testify?

I would think all "normal" people would be... If it were me or you, Venom, I'm sure I'd be up there, compelled to testify -- and prolly you, too, IMO, unless you had some powerful friend(s), etc.

And, further, why couldn't they list the elder R's and find a true bill even if the 3rd party wasn't included -- unless, and I'm guessing, the bill had 3 specific persons and they would have had to agree on that 3rd one, and didn't -- or if it were "person(s) unknown." Dunno. :banghead:

 

[borndem]

It is interesting. If she wanted to compare JonBenet's case to recent high-profile ones, why not bring up Polly Klaas or Megan Kanka....two little girls killed by predators?

Touche, 'hawkeye -- good point. (apparently PR did not do very thorough research on child murderers, or this was one of her Freudian slips.) Hmmm.

 

[Mama2JML]

"Victim's brother, 12, questioned
By Marilyn Robinson
Denver Post Staff Writer

May 26 - Twelve-year-old Burke Ramsey was secretly questioned last week by the grand jury investigating his sister JonBenet's death. The next day, Boulder authorities publicly reaffirmed that he's not a suspect, only a witness.

...

Burke's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, could have contested the subpoena but did not.

...

Denver trial lawyer Scott Robinson said Burke's appearance was no surprise. 'The grand jury almost had to have testimony from Burke,' Robinson said. 'If the target of the grand jury remains one or both of the parents, it makes sense in an investigatory sense to hear from Burke, but if the focus is elsewhere, such as an intruder, you would want to hear from him.'

'And if the grand jury is leaning toward no indictment, they would want to have Burke testify if only to allay public skepticism of the absence of sufficient evidence to charge someone.' Last June, authorities interviewed Burke in Atlanta, where the family now lives, over a three-day period.

...

The grand jury's term, which originally expired in April, was extended for another six months.

'We still have investigation to do,' said Police Chief Mark Beckner, declining to comment further."

Source: http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon0526.htm

 

[borndem]

I just don't think most child murders (by parents) are planned out to that degree. It seems that most children, who are killed by their parents, are killed when abuse goes "too far" one day, or in some fit of rage, or the parent has major psychiatric problems (Andrea Yates). I think the type of case you described (where the parent is doing research into other cases, and then makes the decision to kill their child) isn't common at all, and probably represents a small % of all child murders....

Although I don't understand why anyone would think because the R's got away with it, so would they? The R's had money and connections.

bbm
Yes, yes, & yes, eileenhawkeye -- Pure dumb luck can go just so far. It pays in so many ways to have those connections... Grrrrr. That's why so many similar (more or less) murders have been solved and the perps are serving time. Grrrrr.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Touche, 'hawkeye -- good point. (apparently PR did not do very thorough research on child murderers, or this was one of her Freudian slips.) Hmmm.

I don't know why she would have to do research to come up with Polly and Megan's names though, as I thought both cases got significant national attention? Polly's killer went to trial in '96 and there was plenty of attention about the new Megan's Law that year, so it's not like it had been years since those cases had been talked about. I thought both cases were very well known back then but maybe I am mistaken. It's possible that Patsy didn't even plan out the line about OJ and Susan, and when she was talking, she also blurted it out...like her subconscious automatically went to OJ and Susan instead of Polly and Megan.

 

[icedtea4me]

I just don't think that sort of thing started with the R's. Before JonBenet was killed, we had Diane Downs, Darlie Routier, and Susan Smith, all women who killed their kids and blamed it on a mysterious predator. They all made up crazy, sensational stories about how their child ended up missing or dead.

Why, of all people, would Patsy allude to Susan Smith, a woman who killed her children because they stood in the way between her and her lover?

 

[BBB167893]

Nothing anyone does surprises me anymore. SD you're amazing and I'm looking forward to your book. I do think the fact that the R's got away with this cost a lot of children their lives. Look at all the cases we talk about here where the parent was charged or is suspected but gets away with it.

The best justice money can buy, MissJ. Well, scratch that. The LAW can be bought. JUSTICE cannot.

 

[BBB167893]

Does anyone have any opinions about the recent release of the Grand Jury findings?

It seems they wanted to indict the R'S but couldn't agree that they were solo on the crime. It seems from what was released that they thought a 3rd party in home that assisted in the murder.

Actually, one of the GJurors said a year ago that they just couldn't decide which one did what. Now where have I heard that before? Seems like there was someone here who made that argument, but the name escapes me...

 

[BBB167893]

I so agree with you MissJ. The Ramseys "wrote" the book so to say on how to kill your child and get away with it.

JMO

Yeah, and guys like Jose Baez run with it, step by step.

 

[borndem]

I don't know why she would have to do research to come up with Polly and Megan's names though, as I thought both cases got significant national attention? Polly's killer went to trial in '96 and there was plenty of attention about the new Megan's Law that year, so it's not like it had been years since those cases had been talked about. I thought both cases were very well known back then but maybe I am mistaken. It's possible that Patsy didn't even plan out the line about OJ and Susan, and when she was talking, she also blurted it out...like her subconscious automatically went to OJ and Susan instead of Polly and Megan.

bbm

I think that's exactly what it was, 'hawkeye -- an "excited utterance" of the sort many of us have done (but not on such a subject, let me add!), and wanted to find a hole in the floor and crawl into it.... And you're right again, in that the Polly Klaas and Megan Kanka cases were certainly well known.

I was being sarcastic when I said the part about PR doing research -- I just meant, as you said, that it seemed to me that she could have mentioned a couple of child murder cases perpetrated by someone unknown to the victims, etc., and not a parent or a spouse. Certainly Polly Klaas or Adam Walsh. Sad to say, those names have become household words wrt child murders... And, it seems to me, during her time of mourning and pain, that PR might have thought about similar (?) crimes as to what happened to JB, and remembered Polly or Adam or Megan. Dunno.

She may have indeed been nervous & trying not to say the wrong thing and those names just tumbled out...

 

[eileenhawkeye]

bbm

I think that's exactly what it was, 'hawkeye -- an "excited utterance" of the sort many of us have done (but not on such a subject, let me add!), and wanted to find a hole in the floor and crawl into it.... And you're right again, in that the Polly Klaas and Megan Kanka cases were certainly well known.

I was being sarcastic when I said the part about PR doing research -- I just meant, as you said, that it seemed to me that she could have mentioned a couple of child murder cases perpetrated by someone unknown to the victims, etc., and not a parent or a spouse. Certainly Polly Klaas or Adam Walsh. Sad to say, those names have become household words wrt child murders... And, it seems to me, during her time of mourning and pain, that PR might have thought about similar (?) crimes as to what happened to JB, and remembered Polly or Adam or Megan. Dunno.

She may have indeed been nervous & trying not to say the wrong thing and those names just tumbled out...

It could be as simple as Patsy had followed the cases of OJ and Susan Smith more closely and/or more recently in the media. Megan and Polly's cases might be well-known but that doesn't mean that Patsy had any interest in them. Maybe she hadn't given any thought to them since they occurred.

 

[borndem]

Yep, 'hawkeye, I agree again -- she prolly didn't give much thought to much of anything besides PR, PR, and PR. "Oh, woe is me. And the whole country has lost its Perfect Little Miss."