Should baby K be allowed to see TH? ***POLL***

[citigirl]

I find myself kinda weirded out by Kaine's response. Remember, this is the man who's trashed her for months, nodded as his first ex-wife called TH not really human, the man who said he thinks she harmed his son.

Now suddenly, it's a seemingly calm "could be yes or no" and he has mixed feelings? Although I usually avoid saying "if it were I who"..in this case...if I believed my spouse had harmed my child as well as having a drinking problem and is a chronic liar was maybe going to get to be around my child, I'd say something like "Not only no, but he11 no! I will spend every penny I have and then borrow more to pay lawyers to keep him away from my child under any circumstances. And if need be, I'll stand in front of my child and dare him to come close!No! No! No!" If I believed everything that KH has said about TH, even on national TV, darned if I'd have mixed feelings, and darned if I'd say hmmm..could be yes or no. I think I'd also mention that 106-pound German Shepherd being involved in my "no visitation" policy. Ahem.

So it almost seems to me as though his statement is kind of...back pedaling? I dunno. Very perplexing.

I know, right? Confuses me, too. I'd like to think it is because he knows that it is hard on a baby to be separated from her mother.

 

[grandmaj]

"I find myself kinda weirded out by Kaine's response. Remember, this is the man who's trashed her for months, nodded as his first ex-wife called TH not really human, the man who said he thinks she harmed his son."

Snipped quote.

I disagree that Kaine has trashed Terri Horman. In fact I believe he has remarkable endurance and self restraint given the circumstances. Kaine has told what he knows, has spoken out for Kyron, has spoken what he believes to be the truth, has repeatedly attempted to get Terri to tell what she knows and cooperate, and who believes Terri Horman his soon to be ex-wife disappeared his son. All at the same time he was told by Investigators that this same wife had tried to hire a hit on him offering a man a large sum of money to kill him.

The same woman who was carrying on with a former friend of Kaines and sexting weeks after Kyron went missing as though Kyron was just another hang nail that had been removed and she went on her merry way taking care of her own selfish needs.

At no time have I heard Kaine Horman call Terri names or attempt to "trash" her. No, he used facts to support his statements and stood brave for Kyron and baby K. asking that his wife soon to be ex grow a conscience and do the right thing. Trashing a person is when you call them out without merit, call them names or lie about them to ruin their reputation.

Terri did enough damage to her own reputation she didn't need Kaine's help.

Kaine's statement is pretty clear. It will all be decided in the hearings and depending upon the circumstances.

Terri once again remained mute. I find that even more questionable.

 

[wenwe4]

There are many factors that must be weighed in determining whether visits with the Mother would be beneficial or harmful to the child. There are State and Federal laws which come into play in these instances but the focus should always be "in the best interest of the child". A child has a right to maintain contact/bond/relationship with their parents, as do the parents with their child. Visitation is to be maintained, if at all possible, and supports to ensure health and safety of the child range from
1)monitered visits (ie: someone nearby but not constantly supervised - within hearing distance),
2) supervised visits - someone is watching over the visit and the visit supervisor could be an agreed upon family member or friend, a trained visit supervisor, or even a police officer - if the situation warrants this type of supervision.
3) Therapeutic visits - with a Professional who can help improve the parent/child relationship, address issues of mental health, etc.

Factors that would be considered a reason to decrease or stop the visits between the parent and child would need to be significant enough to be detrimental to the child. Some reasons for this might be
1) if the child displays a pattern of becoming so upset (ie: fearful, combative) that it is more harmful to the child to continue the visits.
2) the parent continually shows up "under the influence" (visits could be restarted once the parent is testing clean and working on their substance abuse issues)
3) the parent continually "no-shows" for visits and the child becomes anxious or depressed each time when they are expecting to see their parent and are constantly let down.
4) the parent is abusive during the visits - despite the protective factors put in place (ie: during supervised visits)

To my knowlege, visitation with an incarcerated parent varies from State to State.

 

[Kat010]

"I find myself kinda weirded out by Kaine's response. Remember, this is the man who's trashed her for months, nodded as his first ex-wife called TH not really human, the man who said he thinks she harmed his son."

Snipped quote.

I disagree that Kaine has trashed Terri Horman.

Snipped quote.

See, in my neck of the woods, the things he's said would be called "trashing" someone.

Just differences in people and settings, I reckon.

 

[Aedrys]

See, in my neck of the woods, the things he's said would be called "trashing" someone.

Just differences in people and settings, I reckon.

So apparently in some neck of the woods is a utopia where everyone is nice and never says bad things about each other? Was Kaine supposed to be nice and not say a word about the woman the police, not rumormongers, not Joe Blow out on the street, but the POLICE who are respected and trusted by KH (as shown by how he treats them), are telling him is probably involved with what happened to Kyron AND she tried to have KH himself killed at one point? I don't see how anyone could be nice after receiving information like that. I know I couldn't. I think he has shown considerable restraint with his words. It could be a whole lot nastier with curse words and a Jerry Springer like feel to it, and it's not.

Or maybe he should ignore the police and welcome her back into his home with open arms like she's totally innocent. I don't think so. No normal person is going to ignore what the police tell them unless they didn't trust LE in the first place. He has to think about the best interests of baby K here, and while Terri is under suspicion and not fighting for her child, baby K needs to remain in her stable and loving environment, not exposed to a woman suspected of one murder plot and one actual kidnapping/murder.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I find myself kinda weirded out by Kaine's response. Remember, this is the man who's trashed her for months, nodded as his first ex-wife called TH not really human, the man who said he thinks she harmed his son.

Now suddenly, it's a seemingly calm "could be yes or no" and he has mixed feelings? Although I usually avoid saying "if it were I who"..in this case...if I believed my spouse had harmed my child as well as having a drinking problem and is a chronic liar was maybe going to get to be around my child, I'd say something like "Not only no, but he11 no! I will spend every penny I have and then borrow more to pay lawyers to keep him away from my child under any circumstances. And if need be, I'll stand in front of my child and dare him to come close!No! No! No!" If I believed everything that KH has said about TH, even on national TV, darned if I'd have mixed feelings, and darned if I'd say hmmm..could be yes or no. I think I'd also mention that 106-pound German Shepherd being involved in my "no visitation" policy. Ahem.

So it almost seems to me as though his statement is kind of...back pedaling? I dunno. Very perplexing.

Or it could be re-considering.

I imagine that when LE went to him with their suspicions on 26 June, he didn't have the time to carefully think it over. Someone (either KH or DY) referred to him grabbing stuff to be out of the house in 15 minutes.

Clearly, at the time, he believed LE.

He may have also been "helped" to a decision by LE saying something like "if you don't take Baby K to a place TMH does not know about, we will go to CPS to have Baby K removed from your custody." This has happened in other cases.

Then three months go by. It's unclear as to how much info LE is actually sharing with KH but I think it is reasonable to guess that it isn't everything they have. That KH is, in fact, in the dark as to how much information LE has and so has to speculate, just like the rest of us.

I don't think it would be unreasonable for KH to be starting to wonder just the sorts of the things many WS'ers are wondering about the LS as to his credibility, etc. KH has to know that when they tried the sting, TMH shut it down quite fast by calling 911.

He's had some time to reflect and he may be having doubts that he did not have at the time.

And he may also have come to the conclusion that Baby K needs contact with her mother, if it can be done safely. I know that my husband felt that way about his son, that it would be better for him to have some sort of ongoing relationship with her.

 

[pufnstuf]

"I find myself kinda weirded out by Kaine's response. Remember, this is the man who's trashed her for months, nodded as his first ex-wife called TH not really human, the man who said he thinks she harmed his son."

Snipped quote.

I disagree that Kaine has trashed Terri Horman. In fact I believe he has remarkable endurance and self restraint given the circumstances. Kaine has told what he knows, has spoken out for Kyron, has spoken what he believes to be the truth, has repeatedly attempted to get Terri to tell what she knows and cooperate, and who believes Terri Horman his soon to be ex-wife disappeared his son. All at the same time he was told by Investigators that this same wife had tried to hire a hit on him offering a man a large sum of money to kill him.

The same woman who was carrying on with a former friend of Kaines and sexting weeks after Kyron went missing as though Kyron was just another hang nail that had been removed and she went on her merry way taking care of her own selfish needs.

At no time have I heard Kaine Horman call Terri names or attempt to "trash" her. No, he used facts to support his statements and stood brave for Kyron and baby K. asking that his wife soon to be ex grow a conscience and do the right thing. Trashing a person is when you call them out without merit, call them names or lie about them to ruin their reputation.

Terri did enough damage to her own reputation she didn't need Kaine's help.

Kaine's statement is pretty clear. It will all be decided in the hearings and depending upon the circumstances.

Terri once again remained mute. I find that even more questionable.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

 

[Donjeta]

What Grainne said.

I think Kaine has overall seemed somewhat more guarded in his statements about Terri compared to Desiree. He's let her talk and just nodded sometimes, and he didn't seem to be completely on board regarding Desiree's last presser and so on. I'm pretty sure Desiree would be more forceful if she was asked to let Terri see her children.

IMO he's probably in a bit of a double bind because he married her, let her take care of his son and had another baby with her. If he now said that Terri couldn't see the daughter because she's a drunk and always lies her attorney would be pretty certain to question him why it didn't worry him at the time he had her look after the baby before Kyron disappeared and it could be turned harshly against him. He has to tiptoe a narrow line that makes it's reasonable for him to have trusted Terri before while he gets the custody of their daughter.

“If Mr. Horman is really interested in what‘s best for the child, then Mr. Horman wouldn’t object to any visitation by this child’s mother.”

http://www.katu.com/news/local/104507829.html

I gather Peter Bunch said this at court and IMO it could make Kaine wary about where PB is going with it and careful not to say too much about the visitations one way or another because if he's good in what he does he could come up with some snappy soundbites that make Kaine sound bad because he ignores the baby's best interests and keeps her away from her mom. It's perhaps not self evident that it is in the baby's best interest to have unlimited visitation with mom if mom is going to seriously incriminate herself talking about her brother's disappearance but it doesn't mean that a lawyer couldn't argue it believably.

I like the idea of therapeutic visits because this whole Kyron thing is going to be a huge elephant in the family dynamics whether or not Terri is ever cleared and it would be important for the daughter to deal with it somehow, but who would pay for them?

 

[Calliope]

So apparently in some neck of the woods is a utopia where everyone is nice and never says bad things about each other? <snip>

I don't believe she said anything even remotely like this.

 

[Kat010]

So apparently in some neck of the woods is a utopia where everyone is nice and never says bad things about each other? Was Kaine supposed to be nice and not say a word about the woman the police, not rumormongers, not Joe Blow out on the street, but the POLICE who are respected and trusted by KH (as shown by how he treats them), are telling him is probably involved with what happened to Kyron AND she tried to have KH himself killed at one point? I don't see how anyone could be nice after receiving information like that. I know I couldn't. I think he has shown considerable restraint with his words. It could be a whole lot nastier with curse words and a Jerry Springer like feel to it, and it's not.

Or maybe he should ignore the police and welcome her back into his home with open arms like she's totally innocent. I don't think so. No normal person is going to ignore what the police tell them unless they didn't trust LE in the first place. He has to think about the best interests of baby K here, and while Terri is under suspicion and not fighting for her child, baby K needs to remain in her stable and loving environment, not exposed to a woman suspected of one murder plot and one actual kidnapping/murder.

Well, ahhhh, no--I didn't say how he or anyone else "should" behave. I simply said that these things would be considered "trashing" someone. And even if my best friend did that, I'd still say "Man, she really trashed him/her."

Nothing at all said about utopias, behavior, etc. etc. Perhaps a rereading of my post to make sure you didn't confuse it with some other post in another thread, maybe, where people were talking about "should" behaviors?

ETA/Whew! Even with a sinus headache, I'm not crazy! Yes, indeed, there's a behaviorial discussion here: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5658990&postcount=179"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Terri and the gym[/ame] How did I recall that when I still can't find my primary set of car keys??!!

 

[Kat010]

Or it could be re-considering.

I imagine that when LE went to him with their suspicions on 26 June, he didn't have the time to carefully think it over. Someone (either KH or DY) referred to him grabbing stuff to be out of the house in 15 minutes.

Clearly, at the time, he believed LE.

He may have also been "helped" to a decision by LE saying something like "if you don't take Baby K to a place TMH does not know about, we will go to CPS to have Baby K removed from your custody." This has happened in other cases.

Then three months go by. It's unclear as to how much info LE is actually sharing with KH but I think it is reasonable to guess that it isn't everything they have. That KH is, in fact, in the dark as to how much information LE has and so has to speculate, just like the rest of us.

I don't think it would be unreasonable for KH to be starting to wonder just the sorts of the things many WS'ers are wondering about the LS as to his credibility, etc. KH has to know that when they tried the sting, TMH shut it down quite fast by calling 911.

He's had some time to reflect and he may be having doubts that he did not have at the time.

And he may also have come to the conclusion that Baby K needs contact with her mother, if it can be done safely. I know that my husband felt that way about his son, that it would be better for him to have some sort of ongoing relationship with her.

Well said. There's a lot for him to ponder, and being face with the idea that PB is going to ask for some form of visitation is something he has to figure out how he thinks it's best dealt with. That's a huge decision with a lot of pressure and stress, IMHO.

 

[Kat010]

What Grainne said.

I think Kaine has overall seemed somewhat more guarded in his statements about Terri compared to Desiree. He's let her talk and just nodded sometimes, and he didn't seem to be completely on board regarding Desiree's last presser and so on. I'm pretty sure Desiree would be more forceful if she was asked to let Terri see her children.

IMO he's probably in a bit of a double bind because he married her, let her take care of his son and had another baby with her. If he now said that Terri couldn't see the daughter because she's a drunk and always lies her attorney would be pretty certain to question him why it didn't worry him at the time he had her look after the baby before Kyron disappeared and it could be turned harshly against him. He has to tiptoe a narrow line that makes it's reasonable for him to have trusted Terri before while he gets the custody of their daughter.



http://www.katu.com/news/local/104507829.html

I gather Peter Bunch said this at court and IMO it could make Kaine wary about where PB is going with it and careful not to say too much about the visitations one way or another because if he's good in what he does he could come up with some snappy soundbites that make Kaine sound bad because he ignores the baby's best interests and keeps her away from her mom. It's perhaps not self evident that it is in the baby's best interest to have unlimited visitation with mom if mom is going to seriously incriminate herself talking about her brother's disappearance but it doesn't mean that a lawyer couldn't argue it believably.

I like the idea of therapeutic visits because this whole Kyron thing is going to be a huge elephant in the family dynamics whether or not Terri is ever cleared and it would be important for the daughter to deal with it somehow, but who would pay for them?

Also very well said, thank you. This thing is going to be a huge part of baby K's life for the rest of her life. It's not a simple thing for "just today" or the next couple of months. Bless her little heart. If TH is guilty, or another perp never found, oh, I fear for her and the taunting from other children that could be possible later on.

 

[stmarysmead]

Also very well said, thank you. This thing is going to be a huge part of baby K's life for the rest of her life. It's not a simple thing for "just today" or the next couple of months. Bless her little heart. If TH is guilty, or another perp never found, oh, I fear for her and the taunting from other children that could be possible later on.

BBM, you are quite correct.

And in any case, whether Terri is innocent or guilty, Baby K will live the rest of her life having all her friends and their familes know...that her Mother was "sexting", taking photos of herself of a graphic sexual nature with a virtual stranger...while her little step brother was missing and endangered.

I can imagine the taunting that will come from that alone, simply because Terri Horman put herself and her "needs"first...and had so little self control or impulse control, or concern for the long term possible consequences for her children...to refrain from gratifying herself during the very period SHE KNEW police were investigating her intensely.

What a poor excuse for a Mother!

Her thoughts were not with Kyron (who might be suffering at the hands of some pervert while Terri is taking pictures of her own body parts) , nor with how her actions might rebound to mortify her children...no, just on what feels good for Terri now!

This really speaks to so much about the mindset and self involvement of this woman. This is not even about morality, it is about the extremely poor judgment of a self-absorbed woman....who apparently isn't much into thinking through possible consequences.

 

[nonfictionrocks]

...while her little step brother was missing and endangered.

respectfully snipped

Ky and his baby sister K are half-siblings, not step-siblings. J and Ky are step-siblings, Ky and Q are half-siblings and baby girl K is J's half-sibling.

 

[Jo in Calif]

respectfully snipped

Ky and his baby sister K are half-siblings, not step-siblings. J and Ky are step-siblings, Ky and Q are half-siblings and baby girl K is J's half-sibling.

No wonder were so confused.

 

[BeanE]

That's it. From now on, I'm just calling them all brothers and sisters and siblings.

 

[nonfictionrocks]

No wonder were so confused.

I know. I had to lie down after that.

 

[SmoothOperator]

BBM

If profiling people who abuse children was as easy as targeting those with a DUI or those who send their child to live with his/her biological parent - we wouldn't have pedophila! Nor would we have the mile long lists of good mothers who have hurt their children (your example). MOO MHO HOO and all the other stuff.

I don't see anyone "profiling" Terri. What puf is pointing out is the truth, is more than relevant, and obviously the courts are not denying, denying, denying all of the inappropriate actions, behaviors, etc nor are they choosing to turn a blind eye to Terri's behaviors, actions, etc, therefor presently you have Terri with NO custody or visitation rights to baby K...

Above highlighted in RED...
No one is "targeting" Terri for JUST the DUI, or JUST the fact that she sent her son to live with a man whom she called a "meth head" and claimed had AIDS[when another man is paying monthly support for that child but not allowed to see him], it is JUST NOT ONE, its NOT even JUST TWO of those things, IT IS THE MULTITUDE OF THESE ACTIONS AND BEHAVIORS that cause the "problem". Anyone/Everyone "screws up" and NONE are perfect, what is troubling IS THE MULTITUDE OF ALL OF THESE TOGETHER[i.e DUI w/11yr old son in tow{TWICE the legal limit}, sending that same son to live w/a man that she has claimed before the courts to be meth head, AIDS patient, etc, then you have a MFH of her husband[whom is the father of her youngest child], and then you have LE sharing w/that husband that she is believed to be directly involved w/his son's disappearance{which the majority of us realize is most likely a murder}]..Yes all of those just mentioned are cause for GREAT ALARM and concern for a 22month old to NOT be in this persons care AT ALL[as it presently stands for custody/visitation of baby K]


Above highlighted in ROYAL BLUE...
puf's statement that is repeated in the above post with emphasis on it being her statement..her point was NOT that "good mothers" suddenly hurt their children[a list a mile long-your example]...her point was that abusers usually do NOT "abuse" in front of fam, friends, and neighbors, therefor u have the fam/neighbors of these women saying "they seem to be a good mother" when what took place behind closed doors was the farthest from that being true, they infact were never a "good mother" just weren't stupid enough to go around "abusing" their kids in front of an audience..

 

[Calliope]

I don't see anyone "profiling" Terri. What puf is pointing out is the truth, is more than relevant, and obviously the courts are not denying, denying, denying all of the inappropriate actions, behaviors, etc nor are they choosing to turn a blind eye to Terri's behaviors, actions, etc, therefor presently you have Terri with NO custody or visitation rights to baby K...

Above highlighted in RED...
No one is "targeting" Terri for JUST the DUI, or JUST the fact that she sent her son to live with a man whom she called a "meth head" and claimed had AIDS[when another man is paying monthly support for that child but not allowed to see him], it is JUST NOT ONE, its NOT even JUST TWO of those things, IT IS THE MULTITUDE OF THESE ACTIONS AND BEHAVIORS that cause the "problem". Anyone/Everyone "screws up" and NONE are perfect, what is troubling IS THE MULTITUDE OF ALL OF THESE TOGETHER[i.e DUI w/11yr old son in tow{TWICE the legal limit}, sending that same son to live w/a man that she has claimed before the courts to be meth head, AIDS patient, etc, then you have a MFH of her husband[whom is the father of her youngest child], and then you have LE sharing w/that husband that she is believed to be directly involved w/his son's disappearance{which the majority of us realize is most likely a murder}]..Yes all of those just mentioned are cause for GREAT ALARM and concern for a 22month old to NOT be in this persons care AT ALL[as it presently stands for custody/visitation of baby K]


Above highlighted in ROYAL BLUE...
puf's statement that is repeated in the above post with emphasis on it being her statement..her point was NOT that "good mothers" suddenly hurt their children[a list a mile long-your example]...her point was that abusers usually do NOT "abuse" in front of fam, friends, and neighbors, therefor u have the fam/neighbors of these women saying "they seem to be a good mother" when what took place behind closed doors was the farthest from that being true, they infact were never a "good mother" just weren't stupid enough to go around "abusing" their kids in front of an audience..

bbm

back up a sec, please. I've not seen anything that says he's forbidden from seeing his son.

 

[germaine]

bbm

back up a sec, please. I've not seen anything that says he's forbidden from seeing his son.[/quote]

For purposes of financial support only, imo. There's nothing to show that either one of them treated J as HIS son after they were divorced except to the extent of TH bleeding him for child support.

To me, this is one of the hugest testaments to her complete lack of character. You don't want to be married to the guy anymore. Fine, move on...and get some other sucker to support your kid. Oh, wait...she did. So two non-fathers supporting the same kid. Howsa 'bout getting a job and supporting your own flesh and blood?