Since Sandy Hook, 1,000 kids under age 12 have died from guns

[Whirring]

The problem is that America/Americans seem to value and defend the right to bear arms over the right to live and not be murdered with a gun. The 'guns don't kill, people kill' attitude would be indefensible in virtually every other country on the planet. I live in the UK and whilst we tragically do have some gun crime, we have decent gun controls. We have had children murdered whilst at school and we said never again. Dunblane happened years ago but I will never forget it. I have never seen or heard a gun and I rate my chances of being killed by a gun at zero. I am not frightened of gun crime, but I would be frightened if I went to the US.

I often read comments describing how the US has now got so many guns it would be impossible to ban guns. I imagine it would be impossible to ban guns completely in any country. But if you think of all the people murdered by a gun in say the past year and you took just one of those guns away, one or even several people would still be alive. It's not an all or nothing situation. It's a for goodness sake do something.

Toddlers and young children killing with guns is absolutely deplorable. I mean no offence, but what sort of country and what sort of people allow small children anywhere near a gun - loaded or otherwise? The US's problem is with their attitude to guns just as much as the guns themselves.

Incidentally, we also have legislation regarding the sale of and carrying of knives. Sadly, we have ever increasing knife crime particularly with young people. London especially has had a lot of young (mainly) men murdered using knives. The government and police tighten up legislation fairly regularly, but the problem remains and it is an absolute tragedy. But we try to protect both our citizens and visitors and I am certain that countless people are alive who wouldn't be if UK citizens had the same rights to have guns (note the plural) as those in the US.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I overwhelmingly agree with you, TMAN.

Yes! People have a right to protect their families, businesses and property with firearms. Yes! More needs to be done to protect children from firearm-related injury and death. Yes! It’s a sticky wicket determining certain Americans’ potential to harm themselves or others, and when/how their rights to own a firearm could legally be restricted.

And very much yes! Criminals use guns, too, legal or not! Holy cripes, man, more than half a million legally purchased and owned firearms are stolen every year during household burglaries and property crimes in the U.S. (Sources: 1, 2, 3) Granted, those generally aren't the weapons used in incidents of child injury and death, but to your point, they definitely fuel black-market availability.

Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but it seems most of us on this thread actually agree with each other.

What I'm not seeing on this thread, however, is a mass howl calling for the outright confiscation and banning of all firearms. Indeed, you also argue against that. I agree with you, too.

The conundrum(s):

How do we reduce human error (curious and clever young children accidentally firing guns, for example), increase safety and knowledge, and best protect individuals and the public from potential gun violence? Heck, how do we reduce the staggering number of completed firearm-related suicides in our country?

Continued accumulation of legally owned firearms won't solve any those problems, nor will the confiscation or ban of those weapons. The forced either/or dilemma is a logical fallacy.

Solutions do exist somewhere betwixt, reasonably and non-politically, and detached from either extreme.

MOO

No one said it was an easy topic. Everyone should not be painted with a broad brush, as the situation downtown Chicago, NY City, LA, or Philly is quite different than remote areas in Kansas or Nebraska.

Do I want to keep some farmer in remote Kansas from possessing a fire arm to protect his family, 50 miles from civilization?

Or some bar owner in West Philly in the badlands, leaving his job at 2 AM in a dangerous neighborhood? Do I want to tell him he can't protect himself with a firearm? Is he to expect the criminals will all turn in their guns? Is he to just accept getting robbed is acceptable?

Each situation has its own advantages and disadvantages with firearms. I think we all agree too many children get killed.

And no, it did not end up well for my friend. It turns out they were both packin'. But if you knew the neighborhood, maybe my friend had reason to want to protect himself against armed robbery. It just so happened the man who killed him was an "off individual", but I don't know how you weed them out. There are no simple solutions. I don't think it is a good situation if a perpetrator knows his potential victim has no adequate protection. We know black markets will provide criminals with guns, no matter what laws are passed.

 

[human]

Points to Mr flourish, who was shot at age 6 by another 6 year old. He's still got shoulder pain, two visible scars, and some range of motion limitations.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120AZ using Tapatalk

I doubt if he is in any statistic.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Bumping this link from upthread: Almost 4,000 children age 17 or younger have been killed or injured by guns so far this year (2017).

If the next quasi-rhetorical/hypothetical question is about older teens and illegal gun use, it's logical to know where literally hundreds of thousands of those illegal guns come from every year.

MOO, of course.

I wonder how many children there are with permanent injuries from guns?

The gun injuries can be totally debilitating. I don’t think we hear about that part.

 

[flourish]

I doubt if he is in any statistic.

You're likely correct. I don't think there were any sort of repercussions for the parents who left a loaded handgun in their camp trailer then let kids play in it unsupervised, either. I'm just glad Mr flourish realized he was about to be shot and dove so the bullet missed his chest. Otherwise I would never have met my true love.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120AZ using Tapatalk

 

[animlzrule]

But there are strict laws in certain places like Chicago, LA, and New York, but criminals don't follow laws, and find guns any way. I don't know about other countries, and the culture of how criminals get guns. I don't own a gun personally, but I believe in the right of our citizens to protect themselves. We need to teach responsibility with citizens who follow the law. That won't work for citizens who do not follow the law. So, you want to penalize responsible citizens for the behavior (irresponsibility of monitoring guns, crime) of another part of the population?

I had a friend killed in a gun shooting over shoveling snow back aroun the year 2000 by an odd neighbor. I will look for a link if I can find it, if you want to read the story. Send me a private IM, so I don't clog up this topic with it. While it was a terrible event, I don't believe that event means every responsible citizen should now lose their right to protect themselves.

BBM: It doesn't work because all of these areas are surrounded by states without strict gun laws. Strict gun laws need to be uniform across the country. For example, IL is flooded with guns from Indiana and WI.

 

[animlzrule]

The problem is that America/Americans seem to value and defend the right to bear arms over the right to live and not be murdered with a gun. The 'guns don't kill, people kill' attitude would be indefensible in virtually every other country on the planet. I live in the UK and whilst we tragically do have some gun crime, we have decent gun controls. We have had children murdered whilst at school and we said never again. Dunblane happened years ago but I will never forget it. I have never seen or heard a gun and I rate my chances of being killed by a gun at zero. I am not frightened of gun crime, but I would be frightened if I went to the US.

I often read comments describing how the US has now got so many guns it would be impossible to ban guns. I imagine it would be impossible to ban guns completely in any country. But if you think of all the people murdered by a gun in say the past year and you took just one of those guns away, one or even several people would still be alive. It's not an all or nothing situation. It's a for goodness sake do something.

Toddlers and young children killing with guns is absolutely deplorable. I mean no offence, but what sort of country and what sort of people allow small children anywhere near a gun - loaded or otherwise? The US's problem is with their attitude to guns just as much as the guns themselves.

Incidentally, we also have legislation regarding the sale of and carrying of knives. Sadly, we have ever increasing knife crime particularly with young people. London especially has had a lot of young (mainly) men murdered using knives. The government and police tighten up legislation fairly regularly, but the problem remains and it is an absolute tragedy. But we try to protect both our citizens and visitors and I am certain that countless people are alive who wouldn't be if UK citizens had the same rights to have guns (note the plural) as those in the US.

I am an American, born and raised, and I agree with you 100%. I live in a state known for hunting and hunting weapons are ubiquitous, yet I myself have never known anyone with a handgun. It's incomprehensible to me that anyone would have one. The best I can come up with is that they have allowed themselves to be manipulated by fear propagated by the extremely powerful gun lobby in the US. Our government officials get millions from gun manufacturers and in turn do their part to instill fear and paranoia in the citizenry. Not to mention the influence of media, be it TV shows, movies etc. You'd think the only way to solve a conflict in this country is with a gun.

We will never get rid of guns in this country, nor has any leader ever proposed such. However, I personally believe that at the very least, the consequences for having a gun registered in one's name be used in the commission of a crime must be critically harsh for the registered owner. Meaning that if a child is killed/maimed with a gun, or if a child maims/kills another with a gun, the registered owner needs to be imprisoned as if they had fired that weapon themselves, no exceptions. So, for example, if the Nazi teenager who has a thread on here killed his girlfriend's parents with a gun he got out of his own home, and the gun is registered to one of his parents, that parent needs to go to prison. If one makes the decision to put everyone in their orbit at risk by having a gun, then they mush be prepared to face the harshest of penalties if the gun is used by another. You have no business having a gun in your home unless you can 100% guarantee no one else will have access to it, and that is nearly impossible. You must be willing to assume the risk. If people have to start facing the consequences of having guns, then I think we'll see a reduction in innocents being killed, particularly children.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

<modsnip>

Good god, this is so terribly sad. A six-hour standoff on Christmas ends with a 10-month-old and 11-year-old, their mother and her estranged spouse dead. He killed them all, then himself. A police officer was injured, too:

Two children killed, and their mother, in holiday shooting.
https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/26/us/arizona-mother-kids-killed/index.html

<modsnip>

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Police: 11-year-old Maryland girl accidentally shot, killed by child family member
http://wric.com/2017/12/26/police-11-year-old-maryland-girl-accidentally-shot-killed-by-child-family-member/

Girl Fatally Shot By Juvenile Family Member: Police
https://patch.com/maryland/bowie/girl-fatally-shot-juvenile-family-member-police

Police believe the young girl who was killed Friday in Aquasco, Maryland, was accidentally shot by a juvenile family member.

Prince George's County police said the 11-year-old girl was shot by a child. (snip) She died from a gunshot wound to the upper body just before 10 p.m.

 

[Jennifer17]

I am an American, born and raised, and I agree with you 100%. I live in a state known for hunting and hunting weapons are ubiquitous, yet I myself have never known anyone with a handgun. It's incomprehensible to me that anyone would have one. The best I can come up with is that they have allowed themselves to be manipulated by fear propagated by the extremely powerful gun lobby in the US. Our government officials get millions from gun manufacturers and in turn do their part to instill fear and paranoia in the citizenry. Not to mention the influence of media, be it TV shows, movies etc. You'd think the only way to solve a conflict in this country is with a gun.

We will never get rid of guns in this country, nor has any leader ever proposed such. However, I personally believe that at the very least, the consequences for having a gun registered in one's name be used in the commission of a crime must be critically harsh for the registered owner. Meaning that if a child is killed/maimed with a gun, or if a child maims/kills another with a gun, the registered owner needs to be imprisoned as if they had fired that weapon themselves, no exceptions. So, for example, if the Nazi teenager who has a thread on here killed his girlfriend's parents with a gun he got out of his own home, and the gun is registered to one of his parents, that parent needs to go to prison. If one makes the decision to put everyone in their orbit at risk by having a gun, then they mush be prepared to face the harshest of penalties if the gun is used by another. You have no business having a gun in your home unless you can 100% guarantee no one else will have access to it, and that is nearly impossible. You must be willing to assume the risk. If people have to start facing the consequences of having guns, then I think we'll see a reduction in innocents being killed, particularly children.

Great post! I live in one of those countries where guns are strictly controlled. That does not mean that hunters or farmers or target shooting sportsmen, cannot own guns, we have many of both of those demographics and they do own guns, but their guns have to be stored and transported under strict rules. Our big mass shooting was done by a mentally ill man using a stolen gun. We said never again, too.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I am an American, born and raised, and I agree with you 100%. I live in a state known for hunting and hunting weapons are ubiquitous, yet I myself have never known anyone with a handgun. It's incomprehensible to me that anyone would have one. The best I can come up with is that they have allowed themselves to be manipulated by fear propagated by the extremely powerful gun lobby in the US. Our government officials get millions from gun manufacturers and in turn do their part to instill fear and paranoia in the citizenry. Not to mention the influence of media, be it TV shows, movies etc. You'd think the only way to solve a conflict in this country is with a gun.

We will never get rid of guns in this country, nor has any leader ever proposed such. However, I personally believe that at the very least, the consequences for having a gun registered in one's name be used in the commission of a crime must be critically harsh for the registered owner. Meaning that if a child is killed/maimed with a gun, or if a child maims/kills another with a gun, the registered owner needs to be imprisoned as if they had fired that weapon themselves, no exceptions. So, for example, if the Nazi teenager who has a thread on here killed his girlfriend's parents with a gun he got out of his own home, and the gun is registered to one of his parents, that parent needs to go to prison. If one makes the decision to put everyone in their orbit at risk by having a gun, then they mush be prepared to face the harshest of penalties if the gun is used by another. You have no business having a gun in your home unless you can 100% guarantee no one else will have access to it, and that is nearly impossible. You must be willing to assume the risk. If people have to start facing the consequences of having guns, then I think we'll see a reduction in innocents being killed, particularly children.

:goodpost:

Great post, particularly the bits I have bolded, you are so right. Also, limit people (with the exception of farmers etc) to ONE gun, for personal self defence. Do more mental health and criminal checks. Imprison people for having semi automatic weapons, also those who sell them as surely nobody apart from the armed forces need guns like that.

I think the overall mindset has to change before much is done about this horrible situation, and that could take generations....

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

OMG, they just keep happening. I didn't intend to post all of these at once, but a simple Google search returned so many stories about children being killed and injured in gun violence, unintentional and otherwise.

:cry:

16-year-old boy fatally shot in West Little River is fourth child shot in a week
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article191372559.html

A 16-year-old boy was fatally shot in the West Little River neighborhood Friday night, Miami-Dade police said. He was the fourth child shot in Miami-Dade County in a week. (snip) Police have no information on a shooter and have not released details on the circumstances surrounding the shooting.

(snip)

“Devastating news on the first night of Winter Break. Our community must become safer for children and teens,” tweeted Alberto Carvalho, superintendent of Miami-Dade County Public Schools. “Violence against young people cannot be tolerated. We are better than this.”

(snip)

The week of violence started Dec 15, when 2-year-old Carnell Williams-Thomas was shot and killed while riding his new scooter in the courtyard of his family’s housing complex in Goulds.

 

[animlzrule]

OMG, they just keep happening. I didn't intend to post all of these at once, but a simple Google search returned so many stories about children being killed and injured in gun violence, unintentional and otherwise.

:cry:

16-year-old boy fatally shot in West Little River is fourth child shot in a week
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article191372559.html

I started to keep track of child victims last year and it became so overwhelming, especially in light of the fact that the majority in this country don't care, that I think I stopped in April. It's really horrifying that we love guns more than our children in the US. Disgusting and shameful. I'll never understand it.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Police chief's toddler shoots self with dad's gun by accident
http://www.wisconsinrapidstribune.com/story/news/2017/12/05/juneau-county-juvenile-stable-after-shooting/922771001/

Elroy Police Chief Tony Green is the toddler's father, Sheriff Brent Oleson said. A caller reported the boy had accidentally shot himself in the community about 10 miles west of Mauston with his father's firearm at 6:12 p.m. Monday.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

rs/bbm

Yesssss! Great post, animlzrule. I mean, how do criminals get guns, anyway? Well, a lot of criminals walk out of our homes with hundreds of thousands of them every year. We're practically giving them away.

The best I can come up with is that they have allowed themselves to be manipulated by fear propagated by the extremely powerful gun lobby in the US. Our government officials get millions from gun manufacturers and in turn do their part to instill fear and paranoia in the citizenry. Not to mention the influence of media, be it TV shows, movies etc. You'd think the only way to solve a conflict in this country is with a gun.

We will never get rid of guns in this country, nor has any leader ever proposed such.

However, I personally believe that at the very least, the consequences for having a gun registered in one's name be used in the commission of a crime must be critically harsh for the registered owner.

If one makes the decision to put everyone in their orbit at risk by having a gun, then they must be prepared to face the harshest of penalties if the gun is used by another. You have no business having a gun in your home unless you can 100% guarantee no one else will have access to it, and that is nearly impossible. You must be willing to assume the risk. If people have to start facing the consequences of having guns, then I think we'll see a reduction in innocents being killed, particularly children.

 

[K_Z]

Here's a thought.

Let's start teaching gun safety in public schools, beginning in pre-K. Gun safety should be part of "life safety" skills. Like seatbelt and carseat use, swimming, fire drills, "good touches and bad touches", etc. If we can try to mandate ridiculous "teaching" about "alternative lifestyles" and gender confusion-- wouldn't it be far more productive to teach kids about safety skills that could save their lives, or the lives of others??

We obsess about lockdown drills that terrify kids, and teach them "run, hide, fight", but avoid common sense life saving education because a swath of the population is opposed to kids even KNOWING what a gun is, or what to do when they encounter one that is unsecured.

After all, many states have state sanctioned high school trap leagues. If we can have state sanctioned competition shooting teams, why do we not have gun safety mandated beginning at least in kindergarten? As screwed up as I think public education is, I'd be fully in support of requiring gun safety education in every public school. That could go a long way to creating a safer environment for ALL kids, not just kids who have legally owned firearms in the home.

Every single kid in America should be trained in gun safety-- what to do when they see or encounter an unsecured firearm, and WHO to notify. Every. Single. Kid.

Except for one obstacle-- the politics of requiring the teaching in schools of gun safety and legal gun ownership is insurmountable. The politics of preventing the gun safety education would be fought more stridently than the mourning of the kids killed.

And God forbid that we teach kids to report unsafe gun situations in their homes and communities. Because that might mean that the police and social services will come investigating. And we can't have that. Because that might mean that people who are not allowed to possess firearms would be charged with several crimes. Can't have the kids turning in their family members and neighbors, right?

Every single kid should have age appropriate gun safety education in public school, at least once a year, IMO.

 

[Ibiz]

Here's a thought.

Let's start teaching gun safety in public schools, beginning in pre-K. Gun safety should be part of "life safety" skills. Like seatbelt and carseat use, swimming, fire drills, "good touches and bad touches", etc. If we can try to mandate ridiculous "teaching" about "alternative lifestyles" and gender confusion-- wouldn't it be far more productive to teach kids about safety skills that could save their lives, or the lives of others??

We obsess about lockdown drills that terrify kids, and teach them "run, hide, fight", but avoid common sense life saving education because a swath of the population is opposed to kids even KNOWING what a gun is, or what to do when they encounter one that is unsecured.

After all, many states have state sanctioned high school trap leagues. If we can have state sanctioned competition shooting teams, why do we not have gun safety mandated beginning at least in kindergarten? As screwed up as I think public education is, I'd be fully in support of requiring gun safety education in every public school. That could go a long way to creating a safer environment for ALL kids, not just kids who have legally owned firearms in the home.

Every single kid in America should be trained in gun safety-- what to do when they see or encounter an unsecured firearm, and WHO to notify. Every. Single. Kid.

Except for one obstacle-- the politics of requiring the teaching in schools of gun safety and legal gun ownership is insurmountable. The politics of preventing the gun safety education would be fought more stridently than the mourning of the kids killed.

And God forbid that we teach kids to report unsafe gun situations in their homes and communities. Because that might mean that the police and social services will come investigating. And we can't have that. Because that might mean that people who are not allowed to possess firearms would be charged with several crimes. Can't have the kids turning in their family members and neighbors, right?

Every single kid should have age appropriate gun safety education in public school, at least once a year, IMO.

That's actually a great idea. Good post!

 

[flourish]

Here's a thought.

Let's start teaching gun safety in public schools, beginning in pre-K. Gun safety should be part of "life safety" skills. Like seatbelt and carseat use, swimming, fire drills, "good touches and bad touches", etc. If we can try to mandate ridiculous "teaching" about "alternative lifestyles" and gender confusion-- wouldn't it be far more productive to teach kids about safety skills that could save their lives, or the lives of others??

We obsess about lockdown drills that terrify kids, and teach them "run, hide, fight", but avoid common sense life saving education because a swath of the population is opposed to kids even KNOWING what a gun is, or what to do when they encounter one that is unsecured.

After all, many states have state sanctioned high school trap leagues. If we can have state sanctioned competition shooting teams, why do we not have gun safety mandated beginning at least in kindergarten? As screwed up as I think public education is, I'd be fully in support of requiring gun safety education in every public school. That could go a long way to creating a safer environment for ALL kids, not just kids who have legally owned firearms in the home.

Every single kid in America should be trained in gun safety-- what to do when they see or encounter an unsecured firearm, and WHO to notify. Every. Single. Kid.

Except for one obstacle-- the politics of requiring the teaching in schools of gun safety and legal gun ownership is insurmountable. The politics of preventing the gun safety education would be fought more stridently than the mourning of the kids killed.

And God forbid that we teach kids to report unsafe gun situations in their homes and communities. Because that might mean that the police and social services will come investigating. And we can't have that. Because that might mean that people who are not allowed to possess firearms would be charged with several crimes. Can't have the kids turning in their family members and neighbors, right?

Every single kid should have age appropriate gun safety education in public school, at least once a year, IMO.

I taught preschool for 14 years for a nationwide program. It's part of the safety curriculum.

ETA sounds like some folks missed the spirit of gender discussions. Wish y'all could have met some of my students. Maybe I need to do some kind of remedial classes for adults though

 

[Woodland]

Here's a thought.

Let's start teaching gun safety in public schools, beginning in pre-K. Gun safety should be part of "life safety" skills. Like seatbelt and carseat use, swimming, fire drills, "good touches and bad touches", etc. If we can try to mandate ridiculous "teaching" about "alternative lifestyles" and gender confusion-- wouldn't it be far more productive to teach kids about safety skills that could save their lives, or the lives of others??

We obsess about lockdown drills that terrify kids, and teach them "run, hide, fight", but avoid common sense life saving education because a swath of the population is opposed to kids even KNOWING what a gun is, or what to do when they encounter one that is unsecured.

After all, many states have state sanctioned high school trap leagues. If we can have state sanctioned competition shooting teams, why do we not have gun safety mandated beginning at least in kindergarten? As screwed up as I think public education is, I'd be fully in support of requiring gun safety education in every public school. That could go a long way to creating a safer environment for ALL kids, not just kids who have legally owned firearms in the home.

Every single kid in America should be trained in gun safety-- what to do when they see or encounter an unsecured firearm, and WHO to notify. Every. Single. Kid.

Except for one obstacle-- the politics of requiring the teaching in schools of gun safety and legal gun ownership is insurmountable. The politics of preventing the gun safety education would be fought more stridently than the mourning of the kids killed.

And God forbid that we teach kids to report unsafe gun situations in their homes and communities. Because that might mean that the police and social services will come investigating. And we can't have that. Because that might mean that people who are not allowed to possess firearms would be charged with several crimes. Can't have the kids turning in their family members and neighbors, right?

Every single kid should have age appropriate gun safety education in public school, at least once a year, IMO.

Age appropriate gun safety? Age appropriate usually means different teaching to different age groups - how will that help? If a 5 year-old is considered too young for a full education on guns (compared to a 14 year-old for example) where is the common sense that the age appropriate teaching for a 5 year-old will prevent them from picking up a gun and firing it at themselves or someone else?

What about toddlers who aren't in school? Do responsible parents start teaching gun safety along with potty-training? That's the culture the US wants? Clearly many US parents are careless with loaded guns around their homes - who will ensure the school based age appropriate gun training is enforced at home? As in post #87, even a US Chief of Police can't be trusted to ensure gun safety in his own home and keep his own toddler safe (age 3).

A little more work at the drawing board and a broader perspective is required imo.

 

[thorpedo]

I appreciate your thought into this. However, I think gun control is the key. It's scary to think that we need to teach our young children about gun safety. IMO no gun is safe near a child.