Since Sandy Hook, 1,000 kids under age 12 have died from guns

[Ibiz]

Does anyone remember this mom?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...the-back-by-4-yr-old-son&highlight=Jamie+Gilt

She had a website - pro gun, pro safety, pro responsible ownership ...

She took her 4 year-old to a gun range, taught him how to fire a handgun and whatever else was 'age appropriate' for a 4 year-old to know about guns, then placed a loaded handgun in her sons hands while her back was turned. It doesn't matter imo that she had placed the gun under the front seat and it slid backwards to the back floor below where her son was sitting - she could have passed it to him over top of the front seat for all the difference it made.

Wonder how far she has come in her recovery - recovery from the gunshot she received to her back by her 'responsibly trained' 4 year-old.

I agree that some people should not be playing with guns. We had a lady in our area, she was by her car loading her gun so she could go into walmart and do some shopping. When she went to stuff her gun in it's hoaster, it went off and she shot herself in the foot.

I personally do not feel safe shopping at places like walmart knowing that there are people like this woman walking around with guns on their hips.

 

[Woodland]

I agree that some people should not be playing with guns. We had a lady in our area, she was by her car loading her gun so she could go into walmart and do some shopping. When she went to stuff her gun in it's hoaster, it went off and she shot herself in the foot.

I personally do not feel safe shopping at places like walmart knowing that there are people like this woman walking around with guns on their hips.

BBM - this is also where the US is 'shooting themselves in the foot.'

It's almost comical when the phrase is literal. Jmo.

 

[Ewood66]

Our very warped ideas about what constitutes "liberty" and civil rights are killing us.

RSBM

I agree with this statement - although not in the way you intended it, but it does sum up what many non-Americans think about the situation in the US re gun ownership.

For me, one of the most devastating statistics is about two-thirds of death by guns was suicide (IIRC and sorry, not scrolling back!). Suicide prevention is definitely an area which needs consideration and significant resources (and be seen as going hand-in-hand with mental health services).

The Australian Constitution also requires a referendum for it to be changed, so we understand the processes - don't think we do not understand how difficult it can be - very few referendums to change the Australian Constitution have been successful.

When people make the decision that the killing has to stop, even if it impinges slightly on their personal freedoms, then change can occur. Until then, the sad truth is that people will continue to be killed by guns. I cannot even grasp how it could be an accepted 'by-product' of protecting one's rights... but this is not my battle, I don't understand the arguments against gun control and I guess (and hope) I never will.

 

[MaryG12]

Back to Sandy Hook Elementary and Adam Lanza for a moment and the issue of mental illness:

I remember way back when in the 1980's a lot of mental hospitals started reducing the number of in-house facilities like beds, eventually leading to the closure of many mental hospitals themselves.

I cannot remember if the following made that much mention in the news when this school shooting happened, but SHE is about 3 miles away from the former Fairfield Hills Hospital which closed in 1995. This was just one of a number of mental hospitals in the state which were closed at some point, I think the last one was Hartford Institute for the Living which eventually merged with Hartford Hospital in 1994. And of course the many regular hospitals which offer psychiatric services.

It almost seems as if there is some kind of coorelation between the closure of the former mentioned institutions, and the growth of gun violence plus violence in general in American society. There are probably studies done on that, I'd have to look them up though.

MOO

 

[MaryG12]

I agree that some people should not be playing with guns. We had a lady in our area, she was by her car loading her gun so she could go into walmart and do some shopping. When she went to stuff her gun in it's hoaster, it went off and she shot herself in the foot.

I personally do not feel safe shopping at places like walmart knowing that there are people like this woman walking around with guns on their hips.

Had to look that one up; did not know Michigan was an open carry state. Learned something new.

Colorado has the same law, lived there for a year, I remember being able to go pretty much anywhere, and not feel unsafe.

Not sure where you live in Michigan, if it's somewhere like Detroit or maybe Hamtramck I can understand the feel of unease if you see someone open-carry and they look suspicious to begin with.

MOO I guess it boils down to demographics.

 

[Ibiz]

Had to look that one up; did not know Michigan was an open carry state. Learned something new.

Colorado has the same law, lived there for a year, I remember being able to go pretty much anywhere, and not feel unsafe.

Not sure where you live in Michigan, if it's somewhere like Detroit or maybe Hamtramck I can understand the feel of unease if you see someone open-carry and they look suspicious to begin with.

MOO I guess it boils down to demographics.

Happend in the last few years, and it's gotten worse. I call it the "any peanut head can carry a gun law."

 

[K_Z]

How many children under age 12 were shot in Chicago in 2017?

The shooting victims in Chicago last year included 24 children under the age of 12, among them a three-year-old boy mowed down on Father’s Day 2016 who is now paralyzed for life, and a ten-year-old boy shot in August whose pancreas, intestines, kidney, and spleen were torn apart. None of the two dozen children were shot by the police. When white children are shot or killed, an outcry ensues—see Newtown, Connecticut. When black children are shot or killed, the country largely looks away—though cops do not—unless the assailant is an officer. This year’s child shooting victims in Chicago include a four-year-old boy shot on the West Side in July while standing next to his mother, who was fatally shot in the head; another four-year-old boy and his six-year-old sister, shot in July while getting snow cones on the West Side; a ten-year-old boy fatally shot in the back while riding in an SUV with this stepfather; and two girls, seven and 13, shot in June on an elementary school playground during a picnic. In February 2017, 11-year-old Takiya Holmes was fatally shot in the head in Chicago by a 19-year-old marijuana dealer, who was blasting away at rival marijuana dealers. While the world knows the name of Michael Brown, the public at large remains ignorant of these young victims because they do not fit the Black Lives Matter narrative. Black Lives Matter activists have held no rallies on their behalf.

BBM.

https://www.city-journal.org/html/critics-proactive-policing-are-wrong-15625.html

None of these kids were shot accidentally because they encountered an unsecured loaded firearm owned lawfully. They were all victims of violent criminals.

But the public and local politicians seem unconcerned about the horrendously dangerous and violent environment these kids are sentenced to be born into, and try to live in long enough to grow up. Activists, local clergy, and residents don't seem to care at all about the lives of these children, IMO. Their lives simply don't matter, unless or until exploiting their shooting and deaths fulfills some kind of social agenda for activists. They are simply invisible and disposable.

Cats and dogs get more respect and advocacy than these little, innocent victims of violent crime perpetrated by their "families, friends and neighbors" in the crime ridden neighborhoods of our inner cities. I will never, ever understand WHY the mothers, clergy, and loved ones of these children are not marching in the streets, at the capitols, on the national mall, loudly demanding more law enforcement and apprehension of criminals in their neighborhoods. Why do they protect and ENABLE these heinous criminals who are mowing down their children?? How can they possibly view policing as MORE of a problem than their dead and bleeding children? There is something deeply, ethically, morally, and intellectually wrong with people who prefer more dead and bleeding children to more peace, safety, and security.

If we want to decrease the number of kids under age 12 who are shot, we MUST substantially increase the pro active policing in these crime infested neighborhoods. Simply being born to a woman who will not move away from these neighborhoods is often a death sentence for a child.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

"she was by her car loading her gun so she could go into walmart and do some shopping"

And this is what is so horribly wrong about it all - nobody should need to load a gun to do a supermarket shop.
C'mon America, wtaf???!

 

[Ibiz]

"she was by her car loading her gun so she could go into walmart and do some shopping"

And this is what is so horribly wrong about it all - nobody should need to load a gun to do a supermarket shop.
C'mon America, wtaf???!

No one should be walking around a supermarket with a gun strapped to their hip coverme. People are just nuts.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

No one should be walking around a supermarket with a gun strapped to their hip coverme. People are just nuts.

It is totally nuts and I am shocked that this is intrinsically acceptable / normal / necessary behaviour. Walmart, really?!

I hate to say this because it makes me sound like a right wuss, but I will anyway.... I have travelled all over the world and experienced really dodgy situations in third world countries like Laos/Cambodia/Indonesia, but this kind of crap is why I still haven't been to America. I'd love to, one day, but you guys need to calm down the gun thang just a bit!

 

[Ibiz]

Well, I can tell you CoverMe, I was born here. I'm not a hunter so I've never owned a gun. I know a little karate, but that's about it. In my life I've worked in some of the roughest inner city neighborhoods imaginable, and never recall a time needing a gun.

So I can't understand why someone would need a gun to shop in a supermarket in a very nice neighborhood.

 

[MaryG12]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/baltimore-breaks-city-record-killings-per-capita-2017-160045125.html

Even as arrests have declined to their lowest level in years, police say their officers are working hard in a tough environment. They note the overwhelming majority of Baltimore's crime has long been linked to gangs, drugs and illegal guns.

............................................

How do we make the Baltimore criminals give up their guns?

 

[Ibiz]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/baltimore-breaks-city-record-killings-per-capita-2017-160045125.html

Even as arrests have declined to their lowest level in years, police say their officers are working hard in a tough environment. They note the overwhelming majority of Baltimore's crime has long been linked to gangs, drugs and illegal guns.

............................................

How do we make the Baltimore criminals give up their guns?

That's the problem, you can't. That's why I would never try to deprive a law abiding citizen of their legal right to own guns. I just don't want to be in the supermarket one day, and find myself in the middle of a Wild West gun battle over a bag of rice or something. So I do wish people would leave their guns at or home locked in a gun safe.

 

[human]

When I was stationed overseas, we had Armed Forces Radio and Television service on base (which we affectionately called A-Farts, lol). AFRTS doesn't have regular commercials-- they have public service announcements on the commercial breaks. Some of these are adverts for National Parks and monuments, and others are what I'd categorize as educational good advice. We laughed about a lot of them, such as the one "Your eyebrows, wear them with pride!" However, there were lots of educational PSAs about good health habits and safety-- the importance of wearing helmets while biking or on motorcycles, for example.

I really wish we had that on commercial channels in the U.S. because things like gun safety PSAs could reach a lot of people and children in their homes. Good habits are the result of education and reinforcement over time. We have to stop pretending guns are evil, and teach ALL adults and children about what they are, how they work, what to do if you encounter an unsecured firearm, etc. What could be the possible HARM of teaching SAFETY as a strategy to develop confidence in the whole population? What possible BAD thing could occur from teaching safety measures and respect for gun handling?? It astounds me that so many are so opposed to even TALKING and TEACHING about this subject. The inaccurate propaganda rules the airways and scares ignorant people unnecessarily because of the extreme bias of the media. Particularly the propaganda of manufactured scary terms, like "assault weapon". There is no such thing as an "assault weapon". Every weapon can potentially be an "assault weapon" if used to assault.

Education, education, education WILL make a difference in behavior, over time. WE have to stop pretending the goal is to limit or get rid of guns as the solution to criminality and accidents. We have to act to make improvements where we can, and accept the fact that guns are, and always will be, a part of American society. We have to reinforce safe ownership for those who want to own, but not pretend guns don't exist by people who don't want to own them.

Look at seatbelt use since the 1970s, child restraints, and helmets, as examples. We have made huge improvements in health and safety with seatbelts, mandated child restraint systems, and helmets-- which many people laughed at as unnecessary decades ago. Education DOES work to change behavior. We have to stop demonizing guns and gun owners, IMO. When we make that switch, we will see a decrease in child gun accidents, IMO. But it will take years of education, and lots of public acceptance. Just like carseats, helmets, and seatbelts.

We can't fix all the social problems of lunatics and criminals, but where ACCIDENTS take children's lives, we CAN make a difference, IMO.

If insurance companies vecome involved, things will change. If you have a car accident, you pay more. If the insurance companies make rules and people have to pay more, they will change.

Apparently seat belt laws have worked as well as helmet laws.

 

[human]

Really?


https://www.massshootingtracker.org/data


Bit of an eye opener, considering a lot of those "mass shootings" had injuries, no deaths.


Not to mention some of the news articles the data is drawn from, is sloppy in journalism.


But on this positive side, and I quick glanced through a bunch of the news stories, a number of the crimes do reflect accurate statistics (that which I know thus far when it comes to crimes committed by gun owners anyways).


Quick breakdown of some of the major cities:


29 of the mass shootings in Chicago (no surprise there at all)


6 in Detroit


3 in Hartford


6 in Baltimore


10 in New Orleans


127 alone in state of Illinois


42 total in Michigan
...............................


127 mass shootings in IL mostly in greater Chicago area - not a good sign at all.


Example:


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-shootings-violence-20170906-story.html


Also worth mentioning, a lot of those cases have UID shooters (sad huh)


How we confiscate guns from criminals?

I think gun injuries would be a good thing to google. Gun injuries are not like on TV shows. They leave people with colostomy bags, brain injured, paraplegic, and on and on.

 

[human]

How many children under age 12 were shot in Chicago in 2017?



BBM.

https://www.city-journal.org/html/critics-proactive-policing-are-wrong-15625.html

None of these kids were shot accidentally because they encountered an unsecured loaded firearm owned lawfully. They were all victims of violent criminals.

But the public and local politicians seem unconcerned about the horrendously dangerous and violent environment these kids are sentenced to be born into, and try to live in long enough to grow up. Activists, local clergy, and residents don't seem to care at all about the lives of these children, IMO. Their lives simply don't matter, unless or until exploiting their shooting and deaths fulfills some kind of social agenda for activists. They are simply invisible and disposable.

Cats and dogs get more respect and advocacy than these little, innocent victims of violent crime perpetrated by their "families, friends and neighbors" in the crime ridden neighborhoods of our inner cities. I will never, ever understand WHY the mothers, clergy, and loved ones of these children are not marching in the streets, at the capitols, on the national mall, loudly demanding more law enforcement and apprehension of criminals in their neighborhoods. Why do they protect and ENABLE these heinous criminals who are mowing down their children?? How can they possibly view policing as MORE of a problem than their dead and bleeding children? There is something deeply, ethically, morally, and intellectually wrong with people who prefer more dead and bleeding children to more peace, safety, and security.

If we want to decrease the number of kids under age 12 who are shot, we MUST substantially increase the pro active policing in these crime infested neighborhoods. Simply being born to a woman who will not move away from these neighborhoods is often a death sentence for a child.

Exactly. Why don’t they move to a new neighborhood.lol, except not funny

How would one do that with no money and where would one go? Being from MN myself I know there is a ling wait for public housing, so first, last, and the present month’s rent. Damage deposit.

Utilities. Heat in MN.

The US made the ghettos after WW2 when returning black GI’s could not get loans for the new developments made. One can look up the covenants in MN forbidding blacks to be able to purchase a home in certain neighborhoods in MN.

A google search will reveal groups and people addressing the issues in their neighborhoods. Lots of coureageous people.

 

[Jennifer17]

Why are people talking about it like it is only a problem with one race. Plenty of white children are shot by (mainly) white men.

 

[human]

If Adam Lanza had been involuntarily committed, and competently supervised 24/7, and medicated, as he should have been, he would not have had access to Nancy's guns. He would not have been allowed to live in her home, spiraling deeper and deeper into madness. Our very warped ideas about what constitutes "liberty" and civil rights are killing us. There is a time and a place to limit and supervise people who have very obvious dangerous behaviors and inclinations. There is an appropriate time to force mentally ill people to take medications that control their behavior. We are so afraid of "guessing wrong" about who the dangerous people are, that we do absolutely absurd things to prove how "enlightened" we are. How "tolerant" we are, how "accepting" we are of mental illness, criminality, and dangerous ideologies. So because we are unwilling to take on the hard task of deciding who is in need of supervision and involuntary commitment, we tacitly accept that a certain number of these people will harm themselves, and others.

Same with James Holmes, and others. But appropriate mandatory evaluation and mandatory supervision and treatment is very expensive and human resource intensive. The guns aren't the problem when lawfully and responsibly owned. The behaviors and mental state/ ideology of likely shooters is what is most relevant. Because dangerous people will use whatever is available if they want to harm others. Including mass murders of children, like Sandy Hook.

There is no easy solution to mental illness. Most of the time true mental illness (not personality disorders and situational coping problems like grief) can never be cured, only controlled. But we recoil from the cost and ramifications of control and supervision. We have vociferous, but IMO woefully misguided activists who fight for the rights of seriously mentally ill people to refuse medication, treatment, and supervision. So there it is.

We should find out why mentally ill people in other nations are not killing like they do in the US. Must be some kind of magic.

Where I live in my Third World nation with no guns, there are about 12 mentally ill people everyone knows. They receive their meds. They get medical care once a month ( free like everyone else here).They wander around in town.

Everyone knows who they are. Tourists get freaked out by one who occasionally will start screaming and having kung fu fights with his own self. Another asks for ten dollars, Another is cheaper at only $1.00.

There are institutional stays for up to a year. My friend’s ex wife stayed a year. A victim of massive sex abuse as a child. She does ok with her meds but occaisionally is hospitalized ( for free). She has had violent outbursts, sometimes by throwing coconuts.

Luckily no guns are available. I have lots of stories that would take up pages of what people with mental illness do here because it is all in the open. Very hot here so one sees it all.

 

[Ibiz]

We should find out why mentally ill people in other nations are not killing like they do in the US. Must be some kind of magic.

Where I live in my Third World nation with no guns, there are about 12 mentally ill people everyone knows. They receive their meds. They get medical care once a month ( free like everyone else here).They wander around in town.

Everyone knows who they are. Tourists get freaked out by one who occasionally will start screaming and having kung fu fights with his own self. Another asks for ten dollars, Another is cheaper at only $1.00.

There are institutional stays for up to a year. My friend’s ex wife stayed a year. A victim of massive sex abuse as a child. She does ok with her meds but occaisionally is hospitalized ( for free). She has had violent outbursts, sometimes by throwing coconuts.

Luckily no guns are available. I have lots of stories that would take up pages of what people with mental illness do here because it is all in the open. Very hot here so one sees it all.

That was a very interesting post human...

 

[PrairieWind]

I've been gone for 4-5 days and didn't do anything online for that time (It was awesome!). Lots of posts here since I left but I wont go back through them all. Human, you raise interesting points there. Mentally ill people are all over the world. Without question we need to be doing a much better job at identifying and helping these people. There are lots of mentally ill people living on the streets, and while they occasionally can be violent, they rarely use guns. It is more non-homeless people with mental illness that seem to be dangerous. We need better ideas on how to spot mental illness and awareness of the public, de-stigmatizing mental illness. I don't really have an answer to that. We are going to have to change some laws regarding mental illness and make it easier for LE to detain some people. But we can't just lock them up.