Since Sandy Hook, 1,000 kids under age 12 have died from guns

  • #201
More Americans die every year from gun suicides than are shot and killed by others, even when mass shootings like the one in Vegas are factored in.

The primary reason is because guns are so available.

If you own a gun, you’re more likely to be impacted by firearm violence.
 
  • #202
https://www.yahoo.com/news/baltimore-breaks-city-record-killings-per-capita-2017-160045125.html

Even as arrests have declined to their lowest level in years, police say their officers are working hard in a tough environment. They note the overwhelming majority of Baltimore's crime has long been linked to gangs, drugs and illegal guns.

............................................

How do we make the Baltimore criminals give up their guns?

How do we keep our legal guns safe enough so that they aren’t stolen to fuel the black market? I mean, it’s already a crime to own them, and it’s already an additional crime to USE a stolen firearm while commiting a crime.

So, yes, how do we better stop criminals from stealing our guns?
 
  • #203
In some countries, it's bombs, not guns, used to kill people - almost every day.

Nigeria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Turkey, Yemen et al.

What is the answer for this?

Are those countries the bar that the US is measured by?
 
  • #204
How do we keep our legal guns safe enough so that they aren’t stolen to fuel the black market? I mean, it’s already a crime to own them, and it’s already an additional crime to USE a stolen firearm while commuting a crime.

So, yes, how do we better stop criminals from stealing our guns?

That was the main reason for the gun buy back in Australia. To get guns out of circulation. Our big mass shooting which prompted the buy back was done with a stolen gun, legally obtained and licenced to the person it was stolen from.
 
  • #205
rs/bbm

Yes, this is a complicated issue. Lanza’s Mom wasn’t complicit. She didn’t coddle or enable him. She knew he was dangerous and was attempting to do just as you suggested. At 20 years old, he ALSO was an adult.

“Fox News quotes a neighborhood figure, whose father works as the pastor of an area church, as saying that the 20-year-old shooter found out that his mother was in the legal process of having him committed and was upset.”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...c-home-targeted-children-loved-loved-him.html

If Adam Lanza had been involuntarily committed, and competently supervised 24/7, and medicated, as he should have been, he would not have had access to Nancy's guns. He would not have been allowed to live in her home, spiraling deeper and deeper into madness. Our very warped ideas about what constitutes "liberty" and civil rights are killing us. There is a time and a place to limit and supervise people who have very obvious dangerous behaviors and inclinations. There is an appropriate time to force mentally ill people to take medications that control their behavior. We are so afraid of "guessing wrong" about who the dangerous people are, that we do absolutely absurd things to prove how "enlightened" we are. How "tolerant" we are, how "accepting" we are of mental illness, criminality, and dangerous ideologies. So because we are unwilling to take on the hard task of deciding who is in need of supervision and involuntary commitment, we tacitly accept that a certain number of these people will harm themselves, and others.
 
  • #206
Rsbm

Yes, this is a complicated issue. Lanza’s Mom wasn’t complicit. She didn’t coddle or enable him. She knew he was dangerous and was attempting to do just as you suggested. At 20 years old, he was an adult.

“Fox News quotes a neighborhood figure, whose father works as the pastor of an area church, as saying that the 20-year-old shooter found out that his mother was in the legal process of having him committed and was upset.”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...c-home-targeted-children-loved-loved-him.html


Yes, but still had all her guns.
 
  • #207
Yes, the number of bombing deaths and injuries worldwide grew by a whopping 50 percent between 2010 and 2015.

In 2015 alone, 33,000 people worldwide were killed or injured by explosive weapons in 2015.

That is truly awful.

Comparatively, 53,720 people were injured or killed by firearms in 2015 — in America alone.

What's the answer for this?

In some countries, it's bombs, not guns, used to kill people - almost every day.

Nigeria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Turkey, Yemen et al.

What is the answer for this?
 
  • #208
Yes, the number of bombing deaths and injuries worldwide grew by a whopping 50 percent between 2010.

In 2015 alone, 33,000 people worldwide were killed or injured by explosive weapons in 2015.

That is truly awful.

Comparatively, 53,720 people were injured or killed by firearms in 2015 — in America alone.

What's the answer for this?

And, jumping off that, cigarette smoking has be greatly reduced by heavily taxing it and making it illegal to do in certain areas, but gun carrying in those same areas has been expanded, not reduced. That is where it could start in a long process of getting guns out of the communities.
 
  • #209
From 2014. Feels appropriate, given the name of this thread and the topic at hand.

I'd also like to reiterate that Asperger's, which was heavily discussed in the media regarding Lanza, is not a mental illness. (At the same time, Asperger's syndrome doesn't preclude someone from also having mental illness.)

It's a long, engrossing read. MOO

rbbm

The Reckoning: The father of the Sandy Hook killer searches for answers.

... A popular narrative had taken hold in which Nancy — a gun enthusiast who had taught Adam to shoot — was an accessory to the crime, rather than its victim.

Emily Miller, an editor at the Washington Times, wrote, “We can’t blame lax gun-control laws, access to mental health treatment, prescription drugs or video games for Lanza’s terrible killing spree. We can point to a mother who should have been more aware of how sick her son had become and forced treatment.”

Inadequate gun control and poor mental-health care are problems that invariably define the debate after atrocities such as the one at Newtown. But, important as those issues are, our impulse to grasp for reasons comes, arguably, from a more basic need—to make sense of what seems senseless.

... Yet no “motive” can mitigate the horror of a bloodbath involving children.

(snip)

Even in an age when a child’s every irregularity is attributed to a syndrome, the idea of a “normal weird kid” seems reasonable enough, but there were early signs that Adam had significant problems.

(snip)

A couple of years later, according to the state’s attorney’s report, a teacher noted “disturbing” violence in his writing and described him as “intelligent but not normal, with anti-social issues.”

(snip)

Adam was a fan of Ron Paul, and liked to argue economic theory. He became fascinated with guns and with the Second World War, and showed an interest in joining the military. But he never talked about mass murder, and he wasn’t violent at school. He seldom revealed his emotions, but had a sharp sense of humor. When Peter took him to see Bill Cosby live, Adam laughed for an hour straight.

(snip)

He said that he hated birthdays and holidays, which he had previously loved; special occasions unsettled his increasingly sclerotic orderliness.

He had “episodes,” panic attacks that necessitated his mother’s coming to school; the state’s attorney’s report says that on such occasions Adam “was more likely to be victimized than to act in violence against another.”

(snip)

All the symptoms that afflicted Adam are signs of autism that might be exacerbated by the hormonal shifts of adolescence. When Adam was thirteen, Peter and Nancy took him to Paul J. Fox, a psychiatrist, who gave a diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome (a category that the American Psychiatric Association has since subsumed into the broader diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder).

Peter and Nancy finally knew what they were up against. “It was communicated as ‘Adam, this is good news. This is why you feel this way, and now we can do something about it,’ ” Peter recalled.

But Adam would not accept the diagnosis.

(snip)

Peter and Nancy were confident enough in the Asperger’s diagnosis that they didn’t look for other explanations for Adam’s behavior. In that sense, Asperger’s may have distracted them from whatever else was amiss.

(snip)

Still, Peter and Nancy sought professional support repeatedly, and none of the doctors they saw detected troubling violence in Adam’s disposition.

According to the state’s attorney’s report, “Those mental health professionals who saw him did not see anything that would have predicted his future behavior.”

Peter said, “Here we are near New York, one of the best locations for mental-health care, and nobody saw this.”

(snip)

Peter gets annoyed when people speculate that Asperger’s was the cause of Adam’s rampage.

“Asperger’s makes people unusual, but it doesn’t make people like this,” he said, and expressed the view that the condition “veiled a contaminant” that was not Asperger’s: “I was thinking it could mask schizophrenia.”

Violence by autistic people is more commonly reactive than planned—triggered, for example, by an invasion of personal space. Studies of people with autism who have committed crimes suggest that at least half also suffer from an additional condition—from psychosis, in about twenty-five per cent of cases.
 
  • #210
Just wondering, do you have to have a licence to own a gun? Do you have proper lessons to learn how to use it, or take a practical and theory test like you do for driving a car?
 
  • #211
Yes, the number of bombing deaths and injuries worldwide grew by a whopping 50 percent between 2010 and 2015.

In 2015 alone, 33,000 people worldwide were killed or injured by explosive weapons in 2015.

That is truly awful.

Comparatively, 53,720 people were injured or killed by firearms in 2015 — in America alone.

What's the answer for this?

Wow. Sobering statistics indeed....
 
  • #212
How do we keep our legal guns safe enough so that they aren’t stolen to fuel the black market? I mean, it’s already a crime to own them, and it’s already an additional crime to USE a stolen firearm while commiting a crime.


So, yes, how do we better stop criminals from stealing our guns?




By keeping them locked up in a safe, if possible.


That was the main reason for the gun buy back in Australia. To get guns out of circulation. Our big mass shooting which prompted the buy back was done with a stolen gun, legally obtained and licenced to the person it was stolen from.


Quick question for you, the guy who committed that mass shooting, if he stole the gun, how did he know the owner of the gun had it in the first place?


Just wondering, do you have to have a licence to own a gun? Do you have proper lessons to learn how to use it, or take a practical and theory test like you do for driving a car?


It depends on the state one lives in. But yes, both my husband and I passed basic training.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state


Are those countries the bar that the US is measured by?


The article link includes the USA with regards to bombings so I'd say yes.
 
  • #213
By keeping them locked up in a safe, if possible.

Quick question for you, the guy who committed that mass shooting, if he stole the gun, how did he know the owner of the gun had it in the first place?

I don't know about that case, but I know how they do it in the US. It's a simple as burglarizing three random houses. Odds are that one of the three houses will have guns in it. Probably not a few guns. In some states, the criminal only has to burglarize two houses to find guns. A good burglar can do that in one day.
 
  • #214
In the case of mass shooting in Australia, the man who did it, was known to the man he stole the gun from and he knew that he had a gun.
 
  • #215
Just wondering, do you have to have a licence to own a gun? Do you have proper lessons to learn how to use it, or take a practical and theory test like you do for driving a car?
Depends on your intent for ownership.

In some jurisdictions, yes you need a license or a permit to buy. This is typically approved by your local sheriff who is taking into consideration 1) a basic background check 2) other considerations that aren't felony convictions.

Some US states just require a background check only, so technically no "license" is required, just a lack of felony convictions and proof of residency within the state.

Now, to carry a concealed firearm most states, almost all, require a license which typically will consist of actual firearms training, outlining state law, and a test based on written questions. This exact curriculum varies in each state, though.

As for guns in America, we are way past the point where we can stop senseless violence. There's way too many firearms out there, both legal and illegal and the knee jerk response of simply banning all the guns would be such an impossible undertaking at this point; both a legal level and actually physically seizing all the firearms out there.

With that said, I own numerous firearms. For the same reason I have insurance, or an alarm system at home, or safety features in my car - it may save my life, it may not. Either way I like to be prepared.
 
  • #216
Depends on your intent for ownership.

In some jurisdictions, yes you need a license or a permit to buy. This is typically approved by your local sheriff who is taking into consideration 1) a basic background check 2) other considerations that aren't felony convictions.

Some US states just require a background check only, so technically no "license" is required, just a lack of felony convictions and proof of residency within the state.

Now, to carry a concealed firearm most states, almost all, require a license which typically will consist of actual firearms training, outlining state law, and a test based on written questions. This exact curriculum varies in each state, though.

As for guns in America, we are way past the point where we can stop senseless violence. There's way too many firearms out there, both legal and illegal and the knee jerk response of simply banning all the guns would be such an impossible undertaking at this point; both a legal level and actually physically seizing all the firearms out there.

With that said, I own numerous firearms. For the same reason I have insurance, or an alarm system at home, or safety features in my car - it may save my life, it may not. Either way I like to be prepared.

Thanks for replying, I totally agree you're way past the point now but I'm intrigued by your last sentence about having numerous guns. Why do you need so many, surely one working gun is enough to protect you? What if legal ownership became restricted to one gun? I'm not being snarky, just genuinely interested.
 
  • #217
Thanks for replying, I totally agree you're way past the point now but I'm intrigued by your last sentence about having numerous guns. Why do you need so many, surely one working gun is enough to protect you? What if legal ownership became restricted to one gun? I'm not being snarky, just genuinely interested.
Thanks. I really wish I had an actual solution to the problem, but I don't see an easy fix unfortunately. I do think a reform in healthcare would aid tremendously and once America stops treating healthcare like a business and more as a basic right, that would surely be a step in the right direction.

As for owning guns, my spouse and I both have concealed carry licenses. We both have a few options based upon size to fit our needs for different weather conditions, activities etc. It's nothing extensive but we have about 6 total at home.
 
  • #218
Yes! Excellent point.

In the '80s and '90s, there was a nationwide movement toward "deinstitutionalization." It actually started much earlier than that, in the 1950s. (Perhaps ironically, it followed the introduction of the first "effective" antipsychotic medication in America.)

The goal was to move treatment away from state hospitals (often rural and notorious for controversial and substandard care of mentally ill and learning disabled people) and, essentially, into privatized care settings located in communities.

(rbbm)

Here's an in-depth 2005 report by PBS Frontline, "Deinstitutionalization: A Psychiatric 'Titanic.'

From that link: "The magnitude of deinstitutionalization of the severely mentally ill qualifies it as one of the largest social experiments in American history." ... That included patients with mental illness, manic-depression, depression, Alzheimer's disease, learning disabilities, alcoholism, epilepsy, stroke, traumatic brain injury, autism, etc.

A 1984 analysis "think piece" examining how the policies of the '50s and '60s influenced the "mass release" of state mental hospital patients, and the impact. New York Times, "How Release of Mental Patients Began."


Back to Sandy Hook Elementary and Adam Lanza for a moment and the issue of mental illness:

I remember way back when in the 1980's a lot of mental hospitals started reducing the number of in-house facilities like beds, eventually leading to the closure of many mental hospitals themselves.

I cannot remember if the following made that much mention in the news when this school shooting happened, but SHE is about 3 miles away from the former Fairfield Hills Hospital which closed in 1995. This was just one of a number of mental hospitals in the state which were closed at some point, I think the last one was Hartford Institute for the Living which eventually merged with Hartford Hospital in 1994. And of course the many regular hospitals which offer psychiatric services.

It almost seems as if there is some kind of coorelation between the closure of the former mentioned institutions, and the growth of gun violence plus violence in general in American society. There are probably studies done on that, I'd have to look them up though.
MOO


Yes, the quality and availability of care hasn't improved in decades. In many ways, it's declined. Sadly. Instead of being warehoused in "hospitals," they're set adrift, often warehoused in homeless shelters, jails, prisons, etc., and everything that comes with that.
 
  • #219
Thanks. I really wish I had an actual solution to the problem, but I don't see an easy fix unfortunately. I do think a reform in healthcare would aid tremendously and once America stops treating healthcare like a business and more as a basic right, that would surely be a step in the right direction.

As for owning guns, my spouse and I both have concealed carry licenses. We both have a few options based upon size to fit our needs for different weather conditions, activities etc. It's nothing extensive but we have about 6 total at home.

Hi again, sorry to keep asking questions but I want to understand properly. What sort of weather conditions or activities would you need different guns for?

(I could google it but it's more useful asking a real person!)
 
  • #220
Action steps we as a nation can take to help alleviate (though not entirely eliminate) the problem:

1- Require registration. There is no current database of gun owners and which firearms they own. Having a national registry would help keep track of who owns what and who shouldn't have access to firearms. The problem is that there is this belief that if there's a registry, the govt can roll in an take them all away easier.

2- Insurance. This will cover gun owners if their gun is stolen and used in a crime or in an accidental shooting. Just as with car insurance, accidents make premiums go up, nobody wants that, so they avoid accidents as best they can (more likely to secure firearms away from children). No insurance? Fines, no access to ranges, etc. If your firearm is stolen, you report it immediately, just as you would your car.

3-NO PRIVATE SALES. As it stands, in many states, a private citizen has no responsibility to report a gun sale and has no obligation to ask a person their background. You can list your gun on gun sales websites and meet people whenever and wherever to sell a firearm.

4- Take domestic violence seriously and charge, indict, and convict properly. Currently, most domestic violence leads nowhere and even if it does, it's generally a misdemeanor. Domestic violence offenders are the number one cause of gun violence in our country and there is absolutely NOTHING preventing offenders from purchasing, owning, and possessing firearms. To compound this, children raised in a domestic violent household are more likely to commit gun violence themselves.

Obviously none of this will completely eliminate homicide, just as regulations on vehicles and speed limits doesn't prevent car accidents. However, these measures DO reduce the number of vehicle related deaths, and I believe measures similar will reduce the number of firearm related deaths.

All, JMO.
 

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