Sixteen years... back to the basics

[ILikeToBendPages]

Well, starting with the time they left the party, is shrouded in mystery. What time did they leave? Where did they stop? Did JB fall asleep? What time did they get home? Was a sleeping JB carried to bed? Did she walk? Did she have a story read to her? Dd they all go into the the house and stay? Did BR and JR stay up playing with some toy? Did 1 or both of the kids have a snack? Did a blood curdling scream really wake up a neighbor? What about the scraping noises that her husband heard? Another neighbor reported seeing a bobbing light, while another noticed a light off, that was always turned on. Was anything unusual noticed at the party? BR said that either he or JB was shocked by an electric fence. Was there ever any elaboration? What about a previous 911 call? I've read so many varying accounts, that I'm not sure if there ever was one. Some of PR's friends were reportedly planning a 'mega JB intervention'? Was this ever verified, and if so, exactly what were they concerned with? I read that PR said she wasn't aware of JR's bonus amount? Did he ever comment on this? I still have so many questions.

I wonder if Pasty heard about John's bonus at the Whites that night. Men talk and brag ,and I'm sure a how business going John would of been a question asked by the other men.
What would of been Pasty response if that was the case? That would of been another stress added to Pasty's mental state.

That amount means something to someone that night.

 

[DeeDee249]

I wonder if Pasty heard about John's bonus at the Whites that night. Men talk and brag ,and I'm sure a how business going John would of been a question asked by the other men.
What would of been Pasty response if that was the case? That would of been another stress added to Pasty's mental state.

That amount means something to someone that night.

Patsy would have known about the bonus simply because she was his wife. He got a bonus every year. Any wife would know the amount. She probably had it spent already in her mind.

 

[dodie20]

I wonder if Pasty heard about John's bonus at the Whites that night. Men talk and brag ,and I'm sure a how business going John would of been a question asked by the other men.
What would of been Pasty response if that was the case? That would of been another stress added to Pasty's mental state.

That amount means something to someone that night.

That could very well be true. Since PR claimed she didn't know about the bonus, and JR, evidently backed her up, (and there was no point in lying about this), this is what I think may have happened...PR, unbeknownst to JR, found out about the bonus, (like you said, maybe at the party). She would have been livid that he hid this information, and IMO, this could have been the basis for a rage. Because this wouldn't have been just about money, but also about being treated as less than an equal. I let my youngest daughter read the ransom note, and from her point of view, money was the major issue. PR, putting that particular amount in the note, would have served a couple of purposes. #1, made it look like a work related retaliation, and #2, taken suspicion off of her, (especially in JR's eyes), because she had never been told about the bonus. But IMO, she also put that amount in the note, because that amount is what had her P'd off. In other words, it was that amount, that was on her mind...just like JB dying was on her mind, and a proper burial was on her mind, and warning JR to not try to outsmart her, was on her mind, and letting him know that killing wouldn't be difficult, was on her mind. In other words, all of the details that had no business in a ransom note, were what was weighing heavily on her mind. All Moo

 

[dodie20]

Patsy would have known about the bonus simply because she was his wife. He got a bonus every year. Any wife would know the amount. She probably had it spent already in her mind.

Maybe but maybe not. I've read enough accounts of JR's ruthlessness, to not put him hiding the bonus, past him. Supposedly, he didn't care for her spending habits, and he might have decided that she couldn't spend what she didn't know about. Honestly, PR being the way she was, I find it hard to believe that she didn't know about the bonus, and I find it even harder to believe that he would try to hide it. But, for argument's sake, say he Did try to hide it. What would happen if he thought he could keep her from finding out? There were a couple of lines in the ransom note, that seemed like they might have double meanings. Like, 'you can try to deceive us but be warned', and, 'don't underestimate us John'... These lines make me wonder if JR Did try to deceive and underestimate PR. moo

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I understand that some parents do terrible things to their children; but I have a gut feeling that niether of the ramseys were capable of that. Here are a few of my thoughts that help me form that opinion. There was no record of prior physical abuse. I can't see going from never bruiseing a child to doing what happened overnight. And Jon Benet was winning pagents and I am sure patsey was pleased with that. And the two ways of killing, the bash and the garote. I just can't keep looking for clues that they did it anymore. There just isn't the evidence to prove that they did it. Keep in mind that I am seperating the murder from being involved in someway. If the truth is in a different direction, then thats where I'm headed.

And here is another thing. Can anyone explain to me the relevance of the basement window? That won't prove anything. I think it is just a distraction from the case. Why couldn't an intruder have walked through one of the doors?

You need to go online and see the bruises on JonBenet. She has bruises on her from about the last eighteen months of her life. In places that whomever was holding her was tight enough to leave bruising. Not once but several times. Go look at the Christmas morning photo of Pasty and JonBenet and see where Pasty has her hand clamped on JonBenet's arm. In the same place as in the pageants photos.

Pasty was under a lot of stress. She had under gone major surgeries for cancer and an hysterectomy and was on drugs for that. She'd some surgery on her chin and her breast implants replaced that summer. She was taking an anti depressant and LHP said Pasty loved her wine and had been hitting it pretty hard and was out of sorts. It's never been said how many glasses she'd had at the Whites or after they got back home. Pasty had packing for a trip she didn't want to take, and another trip out on the Big Red boat. She had to get two kid up,clothed and fed by six thirty that morning to drive to the airport thirty minutes away where they had a seven am flight.

JonBenet had several appearances for her class at school and at malls and riding in a parade the first of December, and on the seventeenth something made Pasty call JonBenet's pedi three times after hours. JonBenets teachers noticed that she was becoming very clingy to Pasty. The day of the gingerbread house party there was a fight between Pasty and JonBenet over a black velvet dress. It was also the day JonBenet was found crying on the stairs and not feeling pretty.
Pasty and JonBenet had another argument Christmas day over the red turtleneck and matching outfits and the white Gap top. JonBenet won that fight. In Pasty's first interview she said she put JonBenet to bed in the red turtleneck and white lonjohns.

There was no foreign faction. Just a family memeber that had that moment of rage and bashed her on the head which led to JonBenet's planned death.

 

[UKGuy]

If their son HAD been involved, they would have been called over in the middle of the night to retrieve him/help deal with what happened. I always think of JRs comment "There were a lot of people there at 3 in the morning". Odd thing to say, right? He didn't supposedly call his friends till 6 am, after the 911 call and after being warned not to do so in the note (as if).
If this was the case and they WERE there in the night, they'd have gone home before the others were called. I have not seen any comments made by the other friends wondering where they were, but that doesn't mean anything because we don't actually know what they thought about it or if they were ever questioned about their absence.
It would have been helpful NOT to have them there because their demeanor may have given away that they knew what happened to JB. They may not have been able to hide how upset they were. So it was really better not to have them there.

DeeDee249,
Yes I agree, very odd given the circumstances.

In this context consider this:

I think it does make a difference, because the time that the Rs got home, is the start of the timeline. I don't know why, but the Rs seemed to want to make the time that they got home, later than it really was. I don't know what a lie would accomplish here, but I'm suspicious of the Rs going to the S's house last, and having a lengthy chat...because from later events, we know that SS would (and did), do whatever she could, to protect/defend PR. moo

If the R's had spent longer at the Stines, and DS returned with the R's, then to mask this maybe they reduced the Stine visit timeframe to preclude any thoughts about DS returning being a consideration?

It would have been helpful NOT to have them there because their demeanor may have given away that they knew what happened to JB. They may not have been able to hide how upset they were. So it was really better not to have them there.

I agree, these are also my thoughts along with: if the Stines were not close enough to call over on the death of JonBenet, how come they are elevated afterwards, moving interstate with the R's, being the recipients of employment, along with Susan Stine's illegal lobbying behaviour, i.e. what else did she get up to?

What we have not been told is was DS's touch-dna found at the R's house and if so where?

Summarising it appears JonBenet was molested on the 12/23 and again on 12/25. If the allegations regarding the Stines are correct then any direct link to either of the above events is sufficient to jump onboard the RST?


.

 

[dodie20]

Maybe but maybe not. I've read enough accounts of JR's ruthlessness, to not put him hiding the bonus, past him. Supposedly, he didn't care for her spending habits, and he might have decided that she couldn't spend what she didn't know about. Honestly, PR being the way she was, I find it hard to believe that she didn't know about the bonus, and I find it even harder to believe that he would try to hide it. But, for argument's sake, say he Did try to hide it. What would happen if he thought he could keep her from finding out? There were a couple of lines in the ransom note, that seemed like they might have double meanings. Like, 'you can try to deceive us but be warned', and, 'don't underestimate us John'... These lines make me wonder if JR Did try to deceive and underestimate PR. moo

I'm not sure how to edit, so I'm quoting my own post. Here is another one of those lines that IMO, seems to have an underlying meaning. 'you stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to out smart us.' IMO, if we consider that PR was angry about the bonus, some of these lines start to make a certain kind of sense, One thing though, ...in each of these lines, 'us' was referred to instead of 'I'. So, if PR did write the note, who else was she referring to? BR, maybe? Did her father work with JR at the time? Would he have been in a position to get a share of a bonus? Anyway, I'm not saying any of this is fact, because I'm just speculating on the 'what ifs', and trying to come up with a logical reason for the anger towards JR in the note. all moo

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm not sure how to edit, so I'm quoting my own post. Here is another one of those lines that IMO, seems to have an underlying meaning. 'you stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to out smart us.' IMO, if we consider that PR was angry about the bonus, some of these lines start to make a certain kind of sense, One thing though, ...in each of these lines, 'us' was referred to instead of 'I'. So, if PR did write the note, who else was she referring to? BR, maybe? Did her father work with JR at the time? Would he have been in a position to get a share of a bonus? Anyway, I'm not saying any of this is fact, because I'm just speculating on the 'what ifs', and trying to come up with a logical reason for the anger towards JR in the note. all moo

Dodie, there is a limited time allowed on the forum to edit your own post. If the "EDIT" button still appears at the bottom when you look at your post, you can still edit it. Click on "EDIT" and it will bring your post up in the same window as when you were writing it, so you can make any changes you want. After a certain amount of time, the "Edit" button will disappear and after that you can no longer edit the post.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I'm not sure how to edit, so I'm quoting my own post. Here is another one of those lines that IMO, seems to have an underlying meaning. 'you stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to out smart us.' IMO, if we consider that PR was angry about the bonus, some of these lines start to make a certain kind of sense, One thing though, ...in each of these lines, 'us' was referred to instead of 'I'. So, if PR did write the note, who else was she referring to? BR, maybe? Did her father work with JR at the time? Would he have been in a position to get a share of a bonus? Anyway, I'm not saying any of this is fact, because I'm just speculating on the 'what ifs', and trying to come up with a logical reason for the anger towards JR in the note. all moo

There was more than one person mentioned in the ransom note as the small foreign facton, and again as the two gentlemen watching over JonBenet, so maybe in Patsy's way of thinking just one wouldn't do?

Linda Hoffman Pugh wrote a book about observations she made in the fourteen months that she worked for the Ramsey's. Life was not as Pasty wanted you to see. Much like her house, it was for show. She said the marriage was failing, and Pasty had two kids with some emotional and behavior issues, and her last chance to win The crown was through JonBenet and now that was gone.

I think it was DeeDee that posted about the mark on JonBenet's face by her ear, and the possibility of it being from Patsy's ring. Could it of been made from a single blow that left it or could it of been after the head bash with Pasty holding her while she thought of a way out? Perhaps sitting outside of JonBenet's door? Leaving prints in the carpet?

 

[dodie20]

There was more than one person mentioned in the ransom note as the small foreign facton, and again as the two gentlemen watching over JonBenet, so maybe in Patsy's way of thinking just one wouldn't do?

Linda Hoffman Pugh wrote a book about observations she made in the fourteen months that she worked for the Ramsey's. Life was not as Pasty wanted you to see. Much like her house, it was for show. She said the marriage was failing, and Pasty had two kids with some emotional and behavior issues, and her last chance to win The crown was through JonBenet and now that was gone.

I think it was DeeDee that posted about the mark on JonBenet's face by her ear, and the possibility of it being from Patsy's ring. Could it of been made from a single blow that left it or could it of been after the head bash with Pasty holding her while she thought of a way out? Perhaps sitting outside of JonBenet's door? Leaving prints in the carpet?

speaking of jewelry, is it possible that the bash to JB's skull resulted from a balled up fist, with a big ring on a finger? kind of a brass knuckle effect? I would think a ring would cause cuts and abrasions, but IDK

 

[DeeDee249]

speaking of jewelry, is it possible that the bash to JB's skull resulted from a balled up fist, with a big ring on a finger? kind of a brass knuckle effect? I would think a ring would cause cuts and abrasions, but IDK

No. Again- this would certainly cause an injury, but not one of that magnitude.

 

[DeeDee249]

There was more than one person mentioned in the ransom note as the small foreign facton, and again as the two gentlemen watching over JonBenet, so maybe in Patsy's way of thinking just one wouldn't do?

Linda Hoffman Pugh wrote a book about observations she made in the fourteen months that she worked for the Ramsey's. Life was not as Pasty wanted you to see. Much like her house, it was for show. She said the marriage was failing, and Pasty had two kids with some emotional and behavior issues, and her last chance to win The crown was through JonBenet and now that was gone.

I think it was DeeDee that posted about the mark on JonBenet's face by her ear, and the possibility of it being from Patsy's ring. Could it of been made from a single blow that left it or could it of been after the head bash with Pasty holding her while she thought of a way out? Perhaps sitting outside of JonBenet's door? Leaving prints in the carpet?

It wasn't me who posted abut the mark on JB's cheek having been made by a ring. But I have seen that theory many times. 'The location if the mark is in an odd place for a ring to have pressed there, even a ring that turns around on a woman's finger towards the palm. This is common when the decorative part of the ring is large or heavy and the shank is thin.
That mark has long puzzled people. It as been suggested (by Kolar and others) that the marks on her back had been made by the end of model train tracks. They do seem to fit. But the one on her cheek has no counterpart (though in some photos there seems to be a very faint mark near her chin and some have suggested that the tape may have prevented the mark from being as dark as the one on her cheek).
To me, looking at a magnified pic of that cheek mark (provided on FFJ by Fr. Brown) you can see the "boat-shaped structure" that was described by one of the forensic specialists who examined the autopsy photos. It has been described as looking like she may have pressed against a snap or button on a piece of clothing. If she was lying with that side of her face against the floor, it is very possible that she was on top of something that made that mark. It is on the right side of her face, and the right ride showed evidence of livor mortis.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

It wasn't me who posted abut the mark on JB's cheek having been made by a ring. But I have seen that theory many times. 'The location if the mark is in an odd place for a ring to have pressed there, even a ring that turns around on a woman's finger towards the palm. This is common when the decorative part of the ring is large or heavy and the shank is thin.
That mark has long puzzled people. It as been suggested (by Kolar and others) that the marks on her back had been made by the end of model train tracks. They do seem to fit. But the one on her cheek has no counterpart (though in some photos there seems to be a very faint mark near her chin and some have suggested that the tape may have prevented the mark from being as dark as the one on her cheek).
To me, looking at a magnified pic of that cheek mark (provided on FFJ by Fr. Brown) you can see the "boat-shaped structure" that was described by one of the forensic specialists who examined the autopsy photos. It has been described as looking like she may have pressed against a snap or button on a piece of clothing. If she was lying with that side of her face against the floor, it is very possible that she was on top of something that made that mark. It is on the right side of her face, and the right ride showed evidence of livor mortis.

DeeDee, you replied to a question about the mark, and that was the post I was referring to. You lead me to someone's aviator of the mark and a very enlarged photo of it. You did warn that it was an unsettling one to see, and it is.
I guess what haunts me the most, out of the abrasions on her, is that one. It makes me think of Pasty holding JonBenet in her right arm cradling her head with her left hand, her ring on the inside, pressing inward holding JonBenet's head against her chest.
Mothers have that one comfortable way to hold their babies. Some are on the left or right, their little head resting on your shoulder,or rocking in your arms their head resting against your breast. I wonder how Pasty held JonBenet as a baby?

A backwards ring is a good guess. Has anyone asked if Pasty's jacket had metal buttons? Or if she was wearing a brooch or a necklace at the Whites that evening?

The mark wouldn't change if it happened near death would it?

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee, you replied to a question about
A backwards ring is a good guess. Has anyone asked if Pasty's jacket had metal buttons? Or if she was wearing a brooch or a necklace at the Whites that evening?

The mark wouldn't change if it happened near death would it?

Not sure about the buttons on Patsy's jacket. I have seen those fleece jackets (and had one myself years ago, though not the "Essentials" brand) and mine had plastic buttons. I have also seen them with fabric covered buttons, and they could very well have had metal buttons too.
Only photo of the White's party, which police have seen but we have not, would reveal whether Patsy wore a brooch or even a cocktail ring.

The mark would definitely be different if it were made AFTER death, but I don't think being near death would make a difference. The coroner did not note it as a postmortem injury, so we have to assume it was made during life. See, THESE kind of things are the reason that her body should have bee held longer to see wether there were further questions that needed to be answered. Or exhumed. And once again the DA caved into pressure from the R lawyers and refused to allow that. It may NOT have been possible to determine exactly what made those marks, but he could have TRIED. The jacket buttons could have been looked at- oh, that's right- police never asked for it till a year later. Nevermind.....:furious:

 

[belimom]

Interesting that questions are being asked about the buttons. I spent some time googling name-brand clothing that used a sailboat on buttons. I found nothing that way, but would place my bet on men's clothing vs women's. Or, kids clothing. Nautica, Lands End, etc, are all good bets for having something like that, IMO.

 

[DeeDee249]

Interesting that questions are being asked about the buttons. I spent some time googling name-brand clothing that used a sailboat on buttons. I found nothing that way, but would place my bet on men's clothing vs women's. Or, kids clothing. Nautica, Lands End, etc, are all good bets for having something like that, IMO.

If you go over to our sister forum, FFJ , you can lurk even if you are not a member there. There is a poster called Fr. Brown, who has an enhanced pic of the cheek mark as his avatar. The image in the mark has been described as "boat-like" and it is not actually in the shape of a boat, so I don't think it would have necessarily been made by a button or snap with a boat on it. The enhanced image is surprisingly three-dimensional. When I look at it, it looks like almost a scab or cigarette burn. Actually, to me it looks more like a cigarette burn than anything else. Yet I know the coroner did not classify it as a burn, but rather an abrasion. I know it was possible to determine what it was, but I do not think the coroner made any attempt to. He simply described what he saw. That was why police wanted her body exhumed - so that the skin could be tested to see whether there was evidence of a burn. What they were actually looking for was stun gun electrical burns. This would have been supportive of the RST's intruder claims, yet the Rs and the DA were adamant that she NOT be exhumed. Why, when it could only have helped their case? Well for one, they did NOT want to have it ruled out that a stun gun was used. They always wanted that doubt, you see. They knew there was no stun gun. But they wanted everyone to think there was.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

If you go over to our sister forum, FFJ , you can lurk even if you are not a member there. There is a poster called Fr. Brown, who has an enhanced pic of the cheek mark as his avatar. The image in the mark has been described as "boat-like" and it is not actually in the shape of a boat, so I don't think it would have necessarily been made by a button or snap with a boat on it. The enhanced image is surprisingly three-dimensional. When I look at it, it looks like almost a scab or cigarette burn. Actually, to me it looks more like a cigarette burn than anything else. Yet I know the coroner did not classify it as a burn, but rather an abrasion. I know it was possible to determine what it was, but I do not think the coroner made any attempt to. He simply described what he saw. That was why police wanted her body exhumed - so that the skin could be tested to see whether there was evidence of a burn. What they were actually looking for was stun gun electrical burns. This would have been supportive of the RST's intruder claims, yet the Rs and the DA were adamant that she NOT be exhumed. Why, when it could only have helped their case? Well for one, they did NOT want to have it ruled out that a stun gun was used. They always wanted that doubt, you see. They knew there was no stun gun. But they wanted everyone to think there was.

You mention three dimensional and there are several stones that are cut in steps. I think rectangle and square cut stones the most often. How big was the ring Pasty came back from Dallas wearing? Any one know the cut? Could it of been from one of the facets?

 

[DeeDee249]

You mention three dimensional and there are several stones that are cut in steps. I think rectangle and square cut stones the most often. How big was the ring Pasty came back from Dallas wearing? Any one know the cut? Could it of been from one of the facets?

Some one matched a cocktail ring that Patsy is seen wearing in some photos to that mark and it seems to line up a bit, but obviously to prove it a coroner would need the ring and the intact skin of JB's cheek. Neither are available any longer.
As for Patsy's engagement/wedding rings, which I think is what you are referring to, I don't know the size or the shape. I don't think it was as big as the mark (that would be a 10-carat stone) but you never know. The cut of diamond that is in "steps" is known as an emerald cut. The sides are not faceted like other cuts, but stepped like bevels. These diamonds are rectangular, though, not round like the mark.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Some one matched a cocktail ring that Patsy is seen wearing in some photos to that mark and it seems to line up a bit, but obviously to prove it a coroner would need the ring and the intact skin of JB's cheek. Neither are available any longer.
As for Patsy's engagement/wedding rings, which I think is what you are referring to, I don't know the size or the shape. I don't think it was as big as the mark (that would be a 10-carat stone) but you never know. The cut of diamond that is in "steps" is known as an emerald cut. The sides are not faceted like other cuts, but stepped like bevels. These diamonds are rectangular, though, not round like the mark.

Was the ring she came back from Dallas ten carats? I guess Pasty had already moved up from a nice little starter ring. Nedra Paugh had a mean mouth didn't she?

 

[DeeDee249]

Was the ring she came back from Dallas ten carats? I guess Pasty had already moved up from a nice little starter ring. Nedra Paugh had a mean mouth didn't she?

Don't know the size of Patsy's ring. 10 carats is pretty big, and in a good-quality stone would cost around $100,000 or more, even then. JR could have afforded it, but no way to tell how big it really was. I suppose if police had probed the mark on her cheek further and tried to determine what made it they may have tried to see what jewelry Patsy owned. To do a match, though, you'd need both the ring (or snap or button) AND the intact flesh of JB's cheek with the mark. With the DA refusing to allow the coroner to hold the body longer (to see if there MIGHT be some further answers the body could yield if questions came up) and his refusal to ask for a warrant to order exhumation in the weeks following the burial, the window for this was fast closing. In a climate like Atlanta, even an embalmed body would be reduced to a skeleton in 5 years or so (the estimate is 5 years for a child, 10 for an adult). Forensic entomology plays a big part in this.