Skull fracture question

[DeeDee249]

I also believe JBR was standing when she was hit on the head. There was a tiny bare footprint in the basement.
While the end of the flashlight where the bulb is IS round, try to imagine hitting someone with it. You'd bring it down in an arc and the impact would be with the SIDE edge of that part. NOT straight down in a vertical motion. And the punched-out part of the skull could be rectangular as a result.

 

[JMO8778]

I also believe JBR was standing when she was hit on the head. There was a tiny bare footprint in the basement.
While the end of the flashlight where the bulb is IS round, try to imagine hitting someone with it. You'd bring it down in an arc and the impact would be with the SIDE edge of that part. NOT straight down in a vertical motion. And the punched-out part of the skull could be rectangular as a result.

wasn't part of the punched out piece hinged? it seems to me it would have to be an object capable of going down into the head,not just something like the edge of a tub.

 

[DeeDee249]

wasn't part of the punched out piece hinged? it seems to me it would have to be an object capable of going down into the head,not just something like the edge of a tub.

Right. I don't see it as the edge of a tub or sink, really, myself. I don't recall seeing if the punched out skull fragment was hinged (still attached to the skull) or not. There are 3 possibilities for the position of that piece. Pushed through into the brain. Or still attached by a small piece to the skull. Or totally separated from the skull but just lying under the scalp. I think the autopsy would have mentioned if the piece was missing and later found in the brain or brain cavity.

 

[JMO8778]

Right. I don't see it as the edge of a tub or sink, really, myself. I don't recall seeing if the punched out skull fragment was hinged (still attached to the skull) or not. There are 3 possibilities for the position of that piece. Pushed through into the brain. Or still attached by a small piece to the skull. Or totally separated from the skull but just lying under the scalp. I think the autopsy would have mentioned if the piece was missing and later found in the brain or brain cavity.

I think it was said to be still attached to the skull by a small piece.
the tub or sink scenario doesn't fit to me,either.even if it was a corner she hit,I can't see that causing the rectangular punched out section.

 

[coloradokares]

I think it was said to be still attached to the skull by a small piece.
the tub or sink scenario doesn't fit to me,either.even if it was a corner she hit,I can't see that causing the rectangular punched out section.

What about the bathtub faucet the part the hot and cold water come out of

 

[JMO8778]

JAT,but I want to pose this question to all reading this thread...if this were YOUR child found with that terrible skull fracture,would you still call it an accident?? even if it was a relative that admitted they got too rough w/ the child,but yet they didn't *mean to harm her???
I'd have a hard time w. that one,no matter who it was.

 

[coloradokares]

JAT,but I want to pose this question to all reading this thread...if this were YOUR child found with that terrible skull fracture,would you still call it an accident?? even if it was a relative that admitted they got too rough w/ the child,but yet they didn't *mean to harm her???
I'd have a hard time w. that one,no matter who it was.

Not if it all pointed to a rage attack against the child Id be bent for election let them know I wouldnt mean it and meant them no harm as I moved heaven and earth to see justice served for as long as possible. Children must have every protection we can provide for them. No one should ever get away with harming a child ever.

 

[BOESP]

wasn't part of the punched out piece hinged? it seems to me it would have to be an object capable of going down into the head,not just something like the edge of a tub.

Like a faucet, or maybe the little cover-cap that covers the screws that hold the toilet in place? Or maybe someone holding the flashlight falls on top of JonBenet with the flashlight being under JonBenet's head? How about the bathroom doorknob or cabinet doorknob/fixture?

I wonder what type crown that was that Patsy saw in the photo with the red turtleneck -- the photo that brought Patsy to tears. Most of those crowns are pretty flimsy but possibly JonBenet had on the crown and was pretending or play-acting. That crown and/or red turtleneck means something, but what?

The above is just me talking aloud to you all instead of to myself. :crazy:

 

[BOESP]

JAT,but I want to pose this question to all reading this thread...if this were YOUR child found with that terrible skull fracture,would you still call it an accident?? even if it was a relative that admitted they got too rough w/ the child,but yet they didn't *mean to harm her???
I'd have a hard time w. that one,no matter who it was.

I would probably call it accidental but not an accident. Legally, in our state, I'd probably say the charge would be voluntary manslaughter. I don't see being able to prove a murderous intent based in the pretend scene you describe above.

P.S. In re-reading I see that "pretend scene" didn't sound like I meant it too. I meant we were talking theoretically.

 

[DeeDee249]

Like a faucet, or maybe the little cover-cap that covers the screws that hold the toilet in place? Or maybe someone holding the flashlight falls on top of JonBenet with the flashlight being under JonBenet's head? How about the bathroom doorknob or cabinet doorknob/fixture?

I wonder what type crown that was that Patsy saw in the photo with the red turtleneck -- the photo that brought Patsy to tears. Most of those crowns are pretty flimsy but possibly JonBenet had on the crown and was pretending or play-acting. That crown and/or red turtleneck means something, but what?

The above is just me talking aloud to you all instead of to myself. :crazy:

This is interesting. You are thinking of the 'X" shaped old-style faucets. I have them in my (older) home. But the R home was renovated within a few years of their buying that house. Take it from someone who tried to do a bathroom upgrade. I don't know about Boulder, but in my state the newer building codes for tubs no longer allow those separate types of faucets. It has to be a single device, that moves from left to right to adjust the water temp. They are allowed on sinks, however, as the hot/cold faucets can be up to 8" apart. But the act of banging her head hard enough to cause that fracture would be impossible in a sink. It's an awkward spot to "fall" against. You'd almost have to pick her up a and RAM her head into it. And even if you did that, I don't think there'd be enough force to punch a hole in a child's skull.
I truly think the fracture came from JBR being bashed with an object- either the flashlight, log grabber, bat, or golf club.

 

[coloradokares]

This is interesting. You are thinking of the 'X" shaped old-style faucets. I have them in my (older) home. But the R home was renovated within a few years of their buying that house. Take it from someone who tried to do a bathroom upgrade. I don't know about Boulder, but in my state the newer building codes for tubs no longer allow those separate types of faucets. It has to be a single device, that moves from left to right to adjust the water temp. They are allowed on sinks, however, as the hot/cold faucets can be up to 8" apart. But the act of banging her head hard enough to cause that fracture would be impossible in a sink. It's an awkward spot to "fall" against. You'd almost have to pick her up a and RAM her head into it. And even if you did that, I don't think there'd be enough force to punch a hole in a child's skull.
I truly think the fracture came from JBR being bashed with an object- either the flashlight, log grabber, bat, or golf club.

The codes are different here. We have seperate hot cold faucets and our fancy pants Jacuzzi tub is less that a year old. I doubt the codes have grown more lax However I was thinking How about the bath tub spigot where the water comes out into the tub if it was a roman faucetry like ours that really could leave a hole in a childs skull in my best guess>

 

[DeeDee249]

I see what you mean, but it's not just the type of faucet. It's physics. The distance she "fell" on it combined with her weight just wouldn't be enough force to punch a hole like that. An adult, weighing more, would fall with more force, but I still don't see it as anything that would punch a hole in a skull.

 

[coloradokares]

I see what you mean, but it's not just the type of faucet. It's physics. The distance she "fell" on it combined with her weight just wouldn't be enough force to punch a hole like that. An adult, weighing more, would fall with more force, but I still don't see it as anything that would punch a hole in a skull.

correct me if I am wrong but like on our roman tub the tiled corners of that tub come to a real sharp point Actually our tub would be dangerous for a child

 

[rashomon]

Weren't JonBenet's pageant trophies kept in her bedroom? I suppose some of these trophies were quite heavy - maybe the rage attack occurred in JonBenet's bedroom and Patsy in her rage just grabbed on of them (or grabbed one of them which might have been lying around in the room, just as JonBenet's litle tiaras were lying around there), and hit her on the head?

Steve Thomas' theory is that JonBenet was slammed against a hard surface though.

jmo

 

[BOESP]

Weren't JonBenet's pageant trophies kept in her bedroom? I suppose some of these trophies were quite heavy - maybe the rage attack occurred in JonBenet's bedroom and Patsy in her rage just grabbed on of them (or grabbed one of them which might have been lying around in the room, just as JonBenet's litle tiaras were lying around there), and hit her on the head?

Steve Thomas' theory is that JonBenet was slammed against a hard surface though.

jmo

Rash, I re-read the section in Thomas's book where he lays out his theory. Yes, he said he believed she was slammed against a hard surface. I searched the Internet for photos of the bathroom and found none. There must be a reason the bathroom photos are not available.

I did find a "bathroom" photo, however, it appears to be from an undated photo session done by Jameson (Sue Bennett) long after the Ramseys moved out of the house. It was unclear to me which bathroom it was and it only showed the sink/lavatory area.

In my opinion, the head wound is consistent with Thomas's theory on how it could have happened. Thomas seems to be saying it is a low-velocity/high-pressure type wound. I know many disagree and believe it was an over-hand striking blow swung by a large, heavy person using a heavy weapon, but this is one aspect of the case I feel strongly about based on expected results founded in physics.

The book also used the term "corporal punishment," not "corporal cleansing" or "corporal cleaning."

Although Thomas did not say this, it occurred to me perhaps JonBenet could have followed Patsy to the basement if Patsy used the big basement washer/dryer to launder sheets and/or blankets after a bed-wetting incident. If JonBenet's blanket was being laundered and Patsy didn't want to stay up waiting for the blanket to dry, perhaps Patsy put the long-johns on JonBenet to keep her warm. Perhaps JonBenet was hurt in the bathroom area of the basement and not upstairs.

 

[BOESP]

I see what you mean, but it's not just the type of faucet. It's physics. The distance she "fell" on it combined with her weight just wouldn't be enough force to punch a hole like that. An adult, weighing more, would fall with more force, but I still don't see it as anything that would punch a hole in a skull.

DeeDee, what if JonBenet was grabbed around the neck or head and shook with a "young lady you WILL get in that bathtub and get cleaned up" or some such scene. A kid could be jerked around with a good deal of force, especially if pushed by an adult against something.

 

[Tober]

DeeDee, what if JonBenet was grabbed around the neck or head and shook with a "young lady you WILL get in that bathtub and get cleaned up" or some such scene. A kid could be jerked around with a good deal of force, especially if pushed by an adult against something.

BOESP, that scenario is certainly possible, but how does it account for the chronic and acute sexual injuries and the deliberate act of tying the neck ligature off around JonBenet's neck while she was still alive?

 

[UKGuy]

DeeDee, what if JonBenet was grabbed around the neck or head and shook with a "young lady you WILL get in that bathtub and get cleaned up" or some such scene. A kid could be jerked around with a good deal of force, especially if pushed by an adult against something.

BOESP,

what if JonBenet was grabbed around the neck

Someone definitely manually strangled JonBenet, go look at the autopsy photographs, check out the broken contusions lying beneath the cirumferential ligature marking.

Some suggest this is what the garrote and its use was intended to mask?


.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP, that scenario is certainly possible, but how does it account for the chronic and acute sexual injuries and the deliberate act of tying the neck ligature off around JonBenet's neck while she was still alive?

Please see the "Life As A Fence Sitter" thread, posts 114-115 (by Rashomon and my response to Rash), which addresses the sexual injuries.

As far as the ligature, an Intruder would have no reason to strangle an already mortally wounded child who had tape on her mouth. All Mr./Ms. Intruder would have had to do was also put tape on the nose and JonBenet would have soon suffocated and Mr./Ms. Intruder could get away from the scene (leaving ASAP is what Intruders do). If Mr./Ms. Intruder wanted to strangle JonBenet to death, why bother bashing in her head.

An accidental head wound that shows obvious signs of being a mortal wound followed by a merciful strangulation to keep the child from unnecessary suffering fits best with what I know about this case. The ligature strangulation looks like a purposeful mercy killing to me.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,

Someone definitely manually strangled JonBenet, go look at the autopsy photographs, check out the broken contusions lying beneath the cirumferential ligature marking.

Some suggest this is what the garrote and its use was intended to mask?


.

I agree she could have been strangled manually prior to the ligature strangulation. Perhaps she was jerked around by the collar, followed by a head wound, followed by ligature strangulation.

The autopsy suggests the immediate cause of death was asphyxiation and an associated head wound. Why strangle a child who is already dying? I can only think of one reason -- mercy.