Skull fracture question

[BOESP]

BOESP,
One of the results discovered at the Body Farm was that typically serious head fractures do not simply radiate out from the point of contact. Apparently once a fissure or radiating crack reaches another point of demarcation, say an eye socket, it will radiate backwards in a non-linear fashion creating another fissure, alike the cracked egg look.

So I think you are correct, but it would be more than an educated guess that could be offered.

.

UKGuy, is what you are describing the comminuted region of the fracture? The radiating egg-shell portion is on JonBenet's skull but a linear fracture extends all the way from the occipital area (the mid-line region, or lower-middle back of the head) all the way to the front near the right eye socket (and a shorter linear fracture also runs to the back [posterior] from the comminuted fracture). That suggests, to me, one of two events. Either two fractures "met" each other or else it describes one event of a low-velocity+high-pressure type. This is, of course, just my opinion.

A striking blow of the 300-pound gorilla type should introduce massive damage to the brain tissue and covering under the skull. The autopsy does not state massive damage at the comminuted region. It describes what would come from a low-velocity impact. Note also that the scalp was not broken at that area of impact.

I know I'm jabbering about already cussed and discussed evidence but correctly analyzing that head wound and the ligature strangulation is so important to understanding what might have happened.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, is what you are describing the comminuted region of the fracture? The radiating egg-shell portion is on JonBenet's skull but a linear fracture extends all the way from the occipital area (the mid-line region, or lower-middle back of the head) all the way to the front near the right eye socket (and a shorter linear fracture also runs to the back [posterior] from the comminuted fracture). That suggests, to me, one of two events. Either two fractures "met" each other or else it describes one event of a low-velocity+high-pressure type. This is, of course, just my opinion.

A striking blow of the 300-pound gorilla type should introduce massive damage to the brain tissue and covering under the skull. The autopsy does not state massive damage at the comminuted region. It describes what would come from a low-velocity impact. Note also that the scalp was not broken at that area of impact.

I know I'm jabbering about already cussed and discussed evidence but correctly analyzing that head wound and the ligature strangulation is so important to understanding what might have happened.

BOESP,
Yes this has been discussed ad-nauseum, firstly two points need to be addressed:

It describes what would come from a low-velocity impact.

low-velocity does not mean the object used was light or that the energy transferred or the momentum was small.


Also to clarify the lack of lacerations:

Note also that the scalp was not broken at that area of impact.

Guide To Forensic Pathology Jay Dix, Md Medical Examiner

There may be no external signs of trauma to the head if a
person has a full head of hair which acts to shield the skin
surface from markings. Obvious external injuries are not
necessary for a death to be caused by head trauma. This is one
important reason autopsies need to be performed when the cause
of death is in doubt.

So much of the impact of the blow to JonBenet's skull was either absorbed by her hair or her killer placed something e.g. a pillow, over her head prior to striking her?

The comminuted fracture means there is splintering or fragmentation of the bone, for this to occur the force of impact must be severe, e.g. beyond that of a simple fall, or being struck in anger by a fist or hand, particularly so if the blow was impeded by say her hair?

a linear fracture extends all the way from the occipital area (the mid-line region, or lower-middle back of the head) all the way to the front near the right eye socket (and a shorter linear fracture also runs to the back [posterior] from the comminuted fracture).

Either of these may be as a result of the blow(s) to the comminuted region with the shock waves radiating back as associated secondary linear fractures. Without the photographs in front of you it is impossible to be precise.

It is also possible that these are the result of further repeated blows to JonBenet's skull, if so, then possibly there should be subscapular hemorrhages, and/or contusions distinct from those associated with the comminuted fracture?


It is apparent from JonBenet's skull injuries which were severe , not the type to be presented at AE as your typical domestic accident, it is similar to that of a head injury sustained in a vehicle crash, that someone intended JonBenet to die, they did not want her to live, that is her death was not accidental!

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,
Yes this has been discussed ad-nauseum, firstly two points need to be addressed:



low-velocity does not mean the object used was light or that the energy transferred or the momentum was small.


Also to clarify the lack of lacerations:


Guide To Forensic Pathology Jay Dix, Md Medical Examiner


So much of the impact of the blow to JonBenet's skull was either absorbed by her hair or her killer placed something e.g. a pillow, over her head prior to striking her?

The comminuted fracture means there is splintering or fragmentation of the bone, for this to occur the force of impact must be severe, e.g. beyond that of a simple fall, or being struck in anger by a fist or hand, particularly so if the blow was impeded by say her hair?



Either of these may be as a result of the blow(s) to the comminuted region with the shock waves radiating back as associated secondary linear fractures. Without the photographs in front of you it is impossible to be precise.

It is also possible that these are the result of further repeated blows to JonBenet's skull, if so, then possibly there should be subscapular hemorrhages, and/or contusions distinct from those associated with the comminuted fracture?


It is apparent from JonBenet's skull injuries which were severe , not the type to be presented at AE as your typical domestic accident, it is similar to that of a head injury sustained in a vehicle crash, that someone intended JonBenet to die, they did not want her to live, that is her death was not accidental!

I saw nothing in the autopsy that indicated a pillow or other buffering object was used -- there's no mention of fibers, lint, foam, feathers, which would be expected if her head was padded with something before the strike or blow.

I'm not convinced she was struck so much as that she struck something and that pressure was applied (such as grabbing the head and thrusting it against a hard, inanimate object and pressing with the hands; or, perhaps a heavier object, such as a person, falling on top of JonBenet and putting pressure on the cranium at the moment of impact (or shortly thereafter) against whatever created the comminuted fracture.

I understand the terminology used so I wasn't really looking for definitions. I'm looking for an analysis of the wound and what type wound it could be and what that might suggest. I do, however, appreciate the reply. I don't want to continue to make you naseuous.

 

[UKGuy]

I saw nothing in the autopsy that indicated a pillow or other buffering object was used -- there's no mention of fibers, lint, foam, feathers, which would be expected if her head was padded with something before the strike or blow.

I'm not convinced she was struck so much as that she struck something and that pressure was applied (such as grabbing the head and thrusting it against a hard, inanimate object and pressing with the hands; or, perhaps a heavier object, such as a person, falling on top of JonBenet and putting pressure on the cranium at the moment of impact (or shortly thereafter) against whatever created the comminuted fracture.

I understand the terminology used so I wasn't really looking for definitions. I'm looking for an analysis of the wound and what type wound it could be and what that might suggest. I do, however, appreciate the reply. I don't want to continue to make you naseuous.

BOESP,

I saw nothing in the autopsy that indicated a pillow or other buffering object was used -- there's no mention of fibers, lint, foam, feathers, which would be expected if her head was padded with something before the strike or blow.

Well you would not would you, Coroner Meyer would be asked his opinion if it ever went to trial why there were no external lacerations.

I'm not convinced she was struck so much as that she struck something and that pressure was applied (such as grabbing the head and thrusting it against a hard, inanimate object and pressing with the hands; or, perhaps a heavier object, such as a person, falling on top of JonBenet and putting pressure on the cranium at the moment of impact (or shortly thereafter) against whatever created the comminuted fracture.

She was struck on the top of her head not the side or the back, which is where most domestic type accidental skull fractures present, which is also what common sense might predict if an accident had been involved. the comminuted fracture results from the excessive force applied way beyond that of any domestic accident.

I understand the terminology used so I wasn't really looking for definitions. I'm looking for an analysis of the wound and what type wound it could be and what that might suggest. I do, however, appreciate the reply. I don't want to continue to make you naseuous.

The definitions are helpful for others, not as versed as yourself, and to avoid misunderstandings.

Also in my previous reply I suggested what forensic evidence may confirm or deny how the linear fractures arose?


.

 

[Albert18]

The broken out piece is basically a rectangle. The linear fracture radiates out horizontally in both directions from the top horizontal line of the rectangle. I would think that would give trained people some ideas about the direction of the blow. If she was pushed or thrown and fell back the direction of the blow would be from below going upward. If she was struck the direction of the blow would most likely be from above going downward. Shouldn't the way the fracture comes out of the broken rectangle tell investigators something?

 

[BOESP]

The broken out piece is basically a rectangle. The linear fracture radiates out horizontally in both directions from the top horizontal line of the rectangle. I would think that would give trained people some ideas about the direction of the blow. If she was pushed or thrown and fell back the direction of the blow would be from below going upward. If she was struck the direction of the blow would most likely be from above going downward. Shouldn't the way the fracture comes out of the broken rectangle tell investigators something?

I would think a good investigator would rely on medical experts to tell them about the wound. The coroner or medical examiner would determine means, manner, etc. and a forensic anthropologist might be called in for some cases.

Part of what you describe above is what makes it look to me as if it is low-velocity/high-pressure. The length of the linear fractures would be in relation to the pressure applied. The impact point isn't consistent, in my opinion, with the 300-pound gorilla blow with a flashlight or other instrument suggested in some theories, nor is the length of the linear fracture.

Think about hitting a coconut with an instrument. The impact creates damage at the point of impact, accompanied with a "comminuted" fracture and linear fractures. In order to get a lengthy fracture in the coconut that goes nearly half-way around the entire coconut, you would likely have to push down with your hands to get the coconut to separate. Hitting the coconut harder increases the damage to the impact site and underlying tissues, but hitting it harder doesn't necessarily increase the length of the fracture unless additional pressure from another source is applied concurrently or nearly concurrently.

I hope this explains what I think I see in the photo and autopsy report. I don't know how to better explain it here but it seems important, to me, in determining what happened to JonBenet.

 

[UKGuy]

The broken out piece is basically a rectangle. The linear fracture radiates out horizontally in both directions from the top horizontal line of the rectangle. I would think that would give trained people some ideas about the direction of the blow. If she was pushed or thrown and fell back the direction of the blow would be from below going upward. If she was struck the direction of the blow would most likely be from above going downward. Shouldn't the way the fracture comes out of the broken rectangle tell investigators something?

Albert18,

Shouldn't the way the fracture comes out of the broken rectangle tell investigators something?

Someone tested the maglite flashlite and concluded it may have left the rectangular depression, I think it was Henry Lee?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

It may have been Dr. Cyril Wecht who tested the flashlight. He found it fit perfectly into that type of fracture.
As far as JBR being bashed THROUGH something (like a pillow)...I don't a pillow but maybe the blanket she was wrapped in? I am thinking about the autopsy photos where her hair is shown all matted, as if she'd slept all night tossing and turning. What if the blanket had been placed over her head to bring her down to the basement? She was a small child- she might have been too frightened to go to the basement willingly. There was a tiny bare footprint in the wineceller. Her body was found barefoot. I think she was alive and standing in there at some point.
Suppose the blanket was put over here head while she was sexually assaulted? So she wouldn't see what was happening. Or maybe who was doing it...If she screamed in pain and then was bashed (to shut her up) with the blanket over her head, maybe that was enough to cushion the blow and prevent scalp laceration.

 

[JMO8778]

BOESP,
You are welcome.


It was discovered during experiments on cadavers that skull fractures do not always follow the classical theory that fracture lines radiate outwards from the site of the blow. What was shown was that lines of force may radiate out from the site of a blow, but they do not all cause fractures, some do, crucially some when they hit a boundary, say an eye socket, then radiate backwards or sideways, causing further fractures. So that long fracture line apparently stopping where it does may be explained in this manner?

What the discussion underlines is just how much force was employed in causing JonBenet's head injury, it far exceeds the force found in your average domestic accident.


.
.

it appears to be overkill to me...just how could that equate to being an accident?
So I still wonder if she was hit intentionally with an object,with intent to kill..that displaced rectangular piece in her skull got there somehow..to me it appears an object of great force hit her,with a resulting crack line splitting the skull..although it may have been cushioned by the pillow Patsy was q'd about that had blood on it.
and perhaps fiber evidence from the pillow is being held back?

 

[JMO8778]

It may have been Dr. Cyril Wecht who tested the flashlight. He found it fit perfectly into that type of fracture.
As far as JBR being bashed THROUGH something (like a pillow)...I don't a pillow but maybe the blanket she was wrapped in? I am thinking about the autopsy photos where her hair is shown all matted, as if she'd slept all night tossing and turning. What if the blanket had been placed over her head to bring her down to the basement? She was a small child- she might have been too frightened to go to the basement willingly. There was a tiny bare footprint in the wineceller. Her body was found barefoot. I think she was alive and standing in there at some point.
Suppose the blanket was put over here head while she was sexually assaulted? So she wouldn't see what was happening. Or maybe who was doing it...If she screamed in pain and then was bashed (to shut her up) with the blanket over her head, maybe that was enough to cushion the blow and prevent scalp laceration.

good thoughts...I don't know about Wecht,but Dr Spitz did the FL test and came back w. the same results..it matched the indentation in her skull.
so perhaps she was struck with it,the killer still has it in his/her hand,and goes thru the kitchen with it,not wanting to turn on lights,to plan his her next moves to cover it all up.(yes,one of the R's,but not BR)

 

[DeeDee249]

Yep- and wipes the flashlight (and batteries) right there in the kitchen.

You are correct in that it was Dr. Spitz. I couldn't remember who had said it, but I knew I had read it.

 

[JMO8778]

The broken out piece is basically a rectangle. The linear fracture radiates out horizontally in both directions from the top horizontal line of the rectangle. I would think that would give trained people some ideas about the direction of the blow. If she was pushed or thrown and fell back the direction of the blow would be from below going upward. If she was struck the direction of the blow would most likely be from above going downward. Shouldn't the way the fracture comes out of the broken rectangle tell investigators something?

I would think so,too.I suspect there's a lot that isn't being said,kwim?

 

[BOESP]

The broken out piece is basically a rectangle. The linear fracture radiates out horizontally in both directions from the top horizontal line of the rectangle. I would think that would give trained people some ideas about the direction of the blow. If she was pushed or thrown and fell back the direction of the blow would be from below going upward. If she was struck the direction of the blow would most likely be from above going downward. Shouldn't the way the fracture comes out of the broken rectangle tell investigators something?

Hi Albert (how old did you say you are - Ames asked me in a PM ),

I don't understand why, theoretically, if she was pushed (thrown) or fell back then it means the blow would be from below going upward. If you mean she fell on the flashlight, it would depend on the angle of the flashlight, location of the flashlight, etc. I do think you are correct about if she was struck from above that the indentation matches a flashlight coming down from that direction but wouldn't it be likely the eggshell fracture would be mostly below the contact point and the linear fracture would run perpendicular to the contact point instead of horizontally?

 

[DeeDee249]

If this autopsy was being done the way today's crime scene TV shows portray, this case would have been solved by now. Publicly. Either the autopsy was incomplete, or there's a lot left out. The coroner should have been able to tell what type of instrument knocked the piece out of the skull. Today, they'd test the edge of the hole in her skull for traces of the flashlight, or bat, or whatever. They'd have looked at the flashlight itself, as well as the golf clubs, log grabber, bat, edge of the tub, etc. for hair, skin cells, etc. But I don't think any of that was done. THAT would have been a very legimate reason for holding the body a little longer. But the coroner (who was probably already being pressured by R defense lawyers, the DA, or the governor) refused. The Rs were so quick to get her in the ground. Yes, let's get that "evidence" on its way to disappearing. And then no one had the guts to order an exhumation. I am surprised that she wasn't cremated, actually.

 

[JMO8778]

If this autopsy was being done the way today's crime scene TV shows portray, this case would have been solved by now. Publicly. Either the autopsy was incomplete, or there's a lot left out. The coroner should have been able to tell what type of instrument knocked the piece out of the skull. Today, they'd test the edge of the hole in her skull for traces of the flashlight, or bat, or whatever. They'd have looked at the flashlight itself, as well as the golf clubs, log grabber, bat, edge of the tub, etc. for hair, skin cells, etc. But I don't think any of that was done. THAT would have been a very legimate reason for holding the body a little longer. But the coroner (who was probably already being pressured by R defense lawyers, the DA, or the governor) refused. The Rs were so quick to get her in the ground. Yes, let's get that "evidence" on its way to disappearing. And then no one had the guts to order an exhumation. I am surprised that she wasn't cremated, actually.

well said (all of it), me too !!
I didn't once ever read that Patsy or JR felt bad about having to leave Atlanta bc JB was buried there......going back to Boulder would have been a real strain on them if an IDI.The same for going to their house in MI,even for a short visit.And they even moved there later.

 

[DeeDee249]

AND ran for public office! BOY, did they ever "get on with their life!"

 

[rashomon]

Albert18,

Someone tested the maglite flashlite and concluded it may have left the rectangular depression, I think it was Henry Lee?

It was Dr.Spitz who tested the flashlight and found the rectangular punched out piece of skull bone to be consistent with an injury inflicted with the maglite.

D. England wondered why a round maglite coud have punched out a rectangular piece of skull bone:

Compression with lines of less resistance yielding to the force. Whether
were talking about a stone boulder or a skull, every "line area" is not of
equal strength. A given force will create an energy radiation pattern
consistent with angle and amount of energy released in conjunction with
time; that is, the speed of the object of contact. Within this pattern,
"line areas" that are the weakest will yield to the force. If that
pronounced weakness is generally rectangular in shape, that is what first
and most drastically yields to the force.
...
However, considering all of the physics even in
general, the limited head of a flashlight with protrusions concentrating the
force and sorely limiting energy distribution could not possibly account for
the dislodged skull fragment in conjunction with extensive fracture lines in
severity and distance. For that much energy to be distributed over that much
area of a dome without lacerating the scalp, the object of contact could not
have had anything even remotely resembling a cutting edge. A heavy, flat
cutting board is a possibility. So is a heavy iron skillet. However, in
weighing all the variables, the highest probability, is that the head was
not struck with a moving object, rather a moving head struck a stationery
object of a flat, or nearly flat surface.
...
There was a photo of Dr. Spitz holding a flashlight near a skull and
claiming this was the murder weapon because the flashlight fit the hole
perfectly. If memory serves, the autopsy report was a rectangular section
that was dislodged. How does a round-headed flashlight "fit" a rectangular
opening? Also, in soft clay, the indentation may match the object of cause,
but object matching effect on a rigid, domed skull is utter nonsense; yet
again and again is Dr. Spitz's "experiment" touted as conclusive evidence.

I remember reading in medical articles posted on another forum, that in so called 'punched-out' skull injuries, the piece of bone broken out very often does match the part of the object with which the blow was struck, or resembles the part of the object which the head struck against (in contrecoup injuries).


ETA: Here is a picture of the bathroom sink. Imo its left edge would fit the punched-out skull bone pretty closely. Also, the sink does not have a sharp edge, so 'blunt force trauma' would apply too.

http://jameson245_archive.tripod.com/ljbrsink2RS.jpg

jmo

 

[UKGuy]

It was Dr.Spitz who tested the flashlight and found the rectangular punched out piece of skull bone to be consistent with an injury inflicted with the maglite.

D. England wondered why a round maglite coud have punched out a rectangular piece of skull bone:
I remember reading in medical articles posted on another forum, that in so called 'punched-out' skull injuries, the piece of bone broken out very often does match the part of the object with which the blow was struck, or resembles the part of the object which the head struck against (in contrecoup injuries).

jmo

rashomon,
Thanks for the correction, I assumed the base of the maglite was rectangular, also since it was wiped clean, it's likely to have played some part in her death.

.

 

[rashomon]

From SuperDave's post

(9/20/2006, "strangulation preferable to head wound" thread):

Yeah, in the commercials for Mag-Lite they run them over with cars to show how durable they are.

... the linear fracture leads me to believe JB had their back to the person.

Everyone says how this had to be a powerful blow, but leverage plays a big part. And I think she'd have to be vertical when it was delivered, not lying dead, because in order to cause a wound like that with such a short object (relatively, I mean), you'd have to put so much of your body into it you'd lose your balance. It just wouldn't work.

 

[JMO8778]

AND ran for public office! BOY, did they ever "get on with their life!"

JR tried to use the resulting fame for his benefit,didn't he.both of them seemed to like public attn and power.