South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #2

[JudgeJudi]

Dempers relied on notes and photos to come to his conclusion.

Are you of the view that all of the injuries documented are all consistent with self-inflicted injuries?

Dempers says pathologists must have all the info at their disposal. It's not a thumb suck decision

I look at the injuries and circumstances - look at wounds without history; then the defects with background of what is said to have happened; then look a the scene itself, their wounds.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Tracey Stewart‏ @Traceyams 2m2 minutes ago

I look at 3 factors 1. the wounds itself 2. background of what was said to happen 3. look at scene itself, other wounding
Prof D: Only after that can you conclude
1 only wounds- was this cause by someone else - they are superficial parallel - already suspicious
stab wound - of course it could be inflicted by someone else
then look at the description - if they say its an ice pick - that may change what I think
Prof D: I am not saying they are all self inflicted I have to consider other possibilities

Adv B: Ok look at wound itself even I concede its possible that person right handed cuts oneself on left

Adv B: These are all possible - even the head bump and leg, throwing himself down the stairs etc - I get that

Adv B:but purely looking at the injuries itself do u agree that cuts on forearm and cuts on chest are consistent
Prof D: I believe scratches on arms and chest are more likely self inflicted

@CapeTownEtc

 

[JudgeJudi]

I am assuming there was a scuffle. If I only look a the wounding, they are superficial, parallel; that is already suspicious.

I look at the abdomen and the story; then look at the other injuries and the injuries sustained by the other family members.

Am I saying they are all self inflicted? No. I have to concede there are other possibilities for some of them.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524

 

[PrimeSuspect]

IMO, some were inflicted by his family members protecting themselves and trying to disarm HvB. I wonder if Dempers can say or imply that?

Ok Botha suggesting HvB threw himself down the stairs, I never even thought of that, thanks Botha!

 

[JudgeJudi]

I believe the scratches on arms and chest are likely more self inflicted, and the wound in abdomen may be too.

For the back and head injuries, he can't say those are definitely self inflicted.

Botha: Is it possible for someone to have caused it?

Dempers: Yes, but victim would have to be standing still. The depth and characteristics of the cuts are not in keeping with an attack.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux

Anthony Molyneaux‏ @AJGMolyneaux 4m4 minutes ago @TimesLIVE

Dempers says scratches on arms and chest are self-inflicted & possibly wound to abdomen could be self-inflicted. (That makes 2 FP)
Dempers says its extremely unlikely that Henris wounds on arm & chest are not self-inflicted i.e caused by someone else.
Botha comes to the depth of the stab wound on abdomen again.

 

[Tortoise]

He struck the person, and the stabbing took place with both of them still holding on. He then let go of the knife.

He pulled knife out of his side and dropped it. I find it hard to believe they were standing still. If you are fighting, you move around quite vigorously.

Professor says if you are holding a weapon and attacking someone - considering the aggression and severity of the other victims - he doesn't see why alleged attacker would let go of the knife.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524

I agree, attacker not likely to let go of knife, but I would add to that. Why would Henri drop the knife too? He doesn't know the attacker is going to run away at that point, and he's dropped a knife he could defend himself with.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Tracey Stewart‏ @Traceyams 2m2 minutes ago

Adv B: go to the depth of the more serious stab- u said you conducted experiments on the depth

Adv G: The experiment is in the report the defense have objected to and now wants to lead it?

Judge Desai do u want to introduce the experiments in evidence? Adv B No he can just show us now

Commentary given comes from an allegation made by the accused in the statement while experiment is given
Judge Desai decides to allow that evidence
Adv B: refers to experiment on knife and the photo of knife showing where blood was
Judge Desai- what is the story about 50mm- witness has the knife in his right hand with point pointing toward left shoulder indicates with his finger 2.5cm from the point of the blade

@CapeTownEtc

https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux

Anthony Molyneaux‏ @AJGMolyneaux 2m2 minutes ago @TimesLIVE
A photograph of knife showed a 'darkened area on blade' (could have been blood)which was 50mm long but D's experiment found..depth to be 25mm.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Dempers had conducted experiments surrounding Henri's stab wound. Used photo evidence, checked the wet part of the blade. Dempers says depth came to 2.5 to 3cm.

Botha says the wound on Henri's left hand side of abdomen was elliptical shape, measurements given 17mm.

Depth must have been deeper than 10 mm, Dempers agrees.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I agree, attacker not likely to let go of knife, but I would add to that. Why would Henri drop the knife too? He doesn't know the attacker is going to run away at that point, and he's dropped a knife he could defend himself with.

And the attacker runs away, why didn't his mate/s help him fight HvB? This other intruder didn't even steal anything! Phfft.

Botha trying hard to make the unbelievable, believable. Is he a magician or a hypnotist?

 

[JudgeJudi]

Botha refers to Dempers experiment:

The depth was 5 cm, you inserted it into piece of pork, and shook it, the knife remained lodged in it from 2 to 3 seconds.

Knife did lodge there for a few seconds before it fell out, Dempers says.

He warmed the pork and expected a significant difference, but there was no discernible difference.

Thought warmer tissue would show a difference. It didn't.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524

 

[JudgeJudi]

Hahahahaha ... "you inserted it into piece of pork" ... because that's as close as you can get to the pig that HvB is.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Tracey Stewart‏ @Traceyams 1m1 minute ago

Adv B: we don't know the direction of the stab wound Adv B takes knife to demonstrate stab wound in downward motion
Prof D- the more angered the knife the wider the wound and the less deeper it would penetrate and fall out easier
Adv B use the same tissue u used and insert the knife in that direction - Prof D: you could

@CapeTown

 

[JudgeJudi]

Knife remained in that piece of pork for 2-3 seconds. Pork skin is significantly thicker than human skin. Tissue not as pliable as human tissue, Dempers says.

Court adjourned for lunch. Back at 14:15.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux

Anthony Molyneaux‏ @AJGMolyneaux 2m2 minutes ago

#VanBreda court adjourned till lunch. See you at 14:15. Here's Prof Dempers.



Dr Marianne Tiemensma

 

[Tortoise]

https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux

Anthony Molyneaux‏ @AJGMolyneaux 2m2 minutes ago

#VanBreda court adjourned till lunch. See you at 14:15. Here's Prof Dempers.

Dr Marianne Tiemensma

Has he gone gray and grown a beard since Monday?

So who was that waiting in court on Monday? (see photo in post 111)

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Has he gone gray and grown a beard since Monday?

So who was that waiting in court on Monday? (see photo in post 111)

Journo must have thought the man seated next to Dr T was Dempers. The real Dempers suits his name.

 

[Tortoise]

Journo must have thought the man seated next to Dr T was Dempers. The real Dempers suits his name.

I'm interested because they said he was the defence pathologist (on Monday). Next thing we know old Reggie bowls up in court. So did Monday-man back out?

 

[Tortoise]

So Henri left a print on the blade of the knife. He was holding the axe in his right hand and must have used his left hand to pull out the knife (cough). That was the only time he claims to have handled the knife. So was this a left thumb/finger print on the blade? I hope they have the facts.

 

[JudgeJudi]

RSBM

Botha trying hard to make the unbelievable, believable. Is he a magician or a hypnotist?

Definitely trying hard to be a magician, and his tools of choice are smoke and mirrors.