South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #2

[PrimeSuspect]

That was quick. All over before visitors arrive. At least I won't have missed anything. I have another 20 minutes (10.30am in UK) before my visitors arrive. So what did we learn from that?

He did have a T shirt, don't know about track suit bottoms. du Toit was sidelined when seeking information? No questions re family tensions or not (unless I missed it). We now know where the dog is.

I feel Henri wanted to stay around to hear whether or not his sister was going to survive and what she might say.

I bet he was nervous!

 

[Interested Bystander]

Roux and Botha seem to be tarred with the same brush. Distort the evidence in order to get a murderer off the hook. IMO they should be taken to task over their lies but we all know it won't happen; at least not in SA.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

BIB this is what Botha put to Malan yesterday -

B: Du Toit (uncle) will say he was referred to Beneke who asked du toit what was the relationship of family members with each other
B: Du Toit said it was very good but he felt that B wanted to know if there was a fight? M: I wasn't present

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Why is Botha allowed to lie?

I know, it's very disappointing he resorts to blatant lies, distortion of the truth and bullying to win a case. (not this one!)

 

[Interested Bystander]

Time for me to log off.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Time for me to log off.

Have a nice day IB!

I wish I could say HvB isn't going anywhere other than back to his cell!

 

[Tortoise]

Yep, and after June 11 when they lose the courtroom? :facepalm:

It's June 19th Prime.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

It's June 19th Prime.

Thanks Tortoise! It will take a miracle to rap it up by then!

 

[Tortoise]

This is just crazy.

Botha is openly using this to dispute the content of the statement, which is nothing to do with whether he had S35 rights.

I can't believe that neither Bianca nor James were asked about the clothing issue when they gave evidence, or whether Henri had a beer that afternoon. FGS!!!!!

And now another day lost!!!!!!!!!! Botha won't care if the trial has to be stopped. WAKE UP GALLOWAY! Du Toit could have given evidence yesterday as IB said.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Tomorrow is bound to be another short day. Desai will probably spend the rest of the day digesting the legal argument, then spend Thursday preparing his judgment, and Friday will be another day off.

 

[Tortoise]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

My blood pressure won't take it.

 

[JudgeJudi]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

My blood pressure won't take it.

Nor mine. I feel really rattled from time to time with this case and things can only get worse. It's criminal the way these wealthy people abuse the legal system via their lawyers while other accused can spend years behind bars before they even get to trial.

 

[Tortoise]

11 court days left, including 19th June.

If the rest of this week is taken up with this trial within a trial, that leaves 9.

Let's say Henri needs 3 days in the witness box. His experts, pathologist and expert on his own wounds, neurologist for concussion - perhaps a crime scene analyst to dispute State's reconstruction - I estimate that could all take 3-4 days. So that leaves 2-3 days for the state to conclude, and we haven't heard about blood spatter, DNA, clothing analysis, police crime scene reconstruction, phone/computer examination. Is it going to happen?

I'm going to have to consider dropping out of this case because I'm not sure I want to invest my energies in a trial that has to be stopped. That will be one wind-up too far.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

11 court days left, including 19th June.

If the rest of this week is taken up with this trial within a trial, that leaves 9.

Let's say Henri needs 3 days in the witness box. His experts, pathologist and expert on his own wounds, neurologist for concussion - perhaps a crime scene analyst to dispute State's reconstruction - I estimate that could all take 3-4 days. So that leaves 2-3 days for the state to conclude, and we haven't heard about blood spatter, DNA, clothing analysis, police crime scene reconstruction, phone/computer examination. Is it going to happen?

I'm going to have to consider dropping out of this case because I'm not sure I want to invest my energies in a trial that has to be stopped. That will be one wind-up too far.

I understand how you feel. If there ends up being a month or more delay till another courtroom is vacant, the public will grow tired and weary of the whole affair which is probably Botha's intention. The less public scrutiny of a trial that dabbles in lies and madness, the less likely an uproar if HvB is acquitted, or the appeals run for years, or a pathetic sentence like 2 yrs in a cosy hospital wing for the wayward child. :cry:

 

[Tortoise]

So what can we take away from today? Henri is an expert at faking emotion.

 

[JudgeJudi]

This is going to be a very long trial. As I see it we are yet to see:

Further State witnesses

A forensics expert from the Forensic Science Laboratory who will have attended the crime scene and been present when the autopsies were conducted. He’ll testify re the blood spatter and any tissue that was found and give his opinion as to whether any bodies had been moved.

DNA expert

A data expert from the Technological Investigation Support Centre of the detective service. His job will have entailed downloading data from phones and iPads and establishing which devices belonged to HvB. He'll testify re his findings.

? SAPS photographer
? An acoustics expert re the neighbour who heard the argument

Defence witnesses

HvB – I’d count on 5 days
The pathologist, Reggie Perumal
? A further medical expert
DNA expert
Forensics expert
? Acoustics expert

By way of comparison, testimony took 35 days in the OP trial + 3 days for argument, verdict and sentencing.

The State concluded their case in the OP trial in 15 days.
Today was day 20 and further witnesses are yet to testify.

The Defence took 22 days in OP (2 related to the referral).

There’s a lot more at stake here than the OP trial where he was charged with premeditated murder but Masipa downgraded it to culpable homicide (manslaughter).

HvB has been charged with 3 Schedule 6 offences - aggravated (premeditated) murder. If convicted he won’t be eligible for parole until he serves 25 years. The 3 sentences could be concurrent or consecutive.

He’s also been charged with a Schedule 5 offence, attempted murder. The minimum sentence is 15 years for a first-time offender.

The lesser charge of defeating the ends of justice (tampering with the crime scene) will probably be served concurrently with the main sentences.

After the testimony is over you have to add on 3 days (argument, verdict, sentencing).

Unlike OP, HvB can’t have his charges downgraded to a lesser charge, so it’s an all or nothing scenario and this is why Botha is going to fight tooth and nail to the very end. If convicted you can count on appeals to the SCA and then the Constitutional Court.

 

[Tortoise]

25 years seems inadequate for this crime. It's a whole other level of coldness and callousness, with parents and siblings involved, the brutality involved and pain inflicted - and no motive that can ever explain it - just depravity and pure psychopathy. I think the danger he poses to others should merit a whole life sentence.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Tortoise, he can be given more. 25 years is the minimum. If he gets consecutive sentences he's looking at 75 years.

 

[Mette]

This is going to be a very long trial. As I see it we are yet to see:

Further State witnesses

A forensics expert from the Forensic Science Laboratory who will have attended the crime scene and been present when the autopsies were conducted. He’ll testify re the blood spatter and any tissue that was found and give his opinion as to whether any bodies had been moved.

DNA expert

A data expert from the Technological Investigation Support Centre of the detective service. His job will have entailed downloading data from phones and iPads and establishing which devices belonged to HvB. He'll testify re his findings.

? SAPS photographer
? An acoustics expert re the neighbour who heard the argument

[snip]

Well, Marli is still on the State's list.

We can only hope her amnesia has gone and that's the reason Galloway has been so chilled about Botha.

 

[Mette]

BIB this is what Botha put to Malan yesterday -

B: Du Toit (uncle) will say he was referred to Beneke who asked du toit what was the relationship of family members with each other
B: Du Toit said it was very good but he felt that B wanted to know if there was a fight? M: I wasn't present

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Why is Botha allowed to lie?

[Red is mine]

This is how I read it:

Andre du Toit is not in the business of obstruction of justice in the murder of his sister Teresa. However he was called as a witness of defence of the only person accused of her murder. So he's not necessarily a hostile witness, but he's probably uncoachable and unsuggestible by bullying advocates.

He was asked a short and very broad question at the scene of the crime, which could have been open to many interpretations. He must have considered many possibilities afterwards and when pressed by the defence team, mentioned one or more of them. But of course he couldn't be sure because he wasn't told.

So (theoretically of course) the defence "encourages" him to give the family fight answer on the stand, because it fits their narrative that Henri was considered a suspect from the beginning, unfair treatment, blah blah. Advocate Botha feels confident enough to stand up in court and say what du Toit will say. Perhaps even ensures that court ends early the day before in order to give him time to have one last chat with his witness.

But today du Toit gets on the stand and tells the truth, which is that he's not sure. One more strike for the defence's already shaky plan.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I am trying out the copy and pasting direct from twitter to WS method and thought you might like to see Anthony Molyneaux's tweets from this morning although I am having trouble adding a live twitter link which is usually no trouble.

https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux


good morning everybody! The judge has yet to arrive. Will keep you posted

We're back online. Henris uncle, Andre du Toit, takes the stand to testify in the trial within the trial

Andre heard about the incident from the de Zalze Estate manager.

Andre was at work. He drove through to estate. Phoned de Zalze manager again but he manager didn't give much information.

Andre says when he arrived at scene there were police vans and yellow tape securing the area. He introduced himself to police

Col. Beneke asked Andre what type of relationship family had. Andre said he didn't know of any problems.Beneke went back to work

Andre begins crying on stand.He becomes emotional when he speaks about finding out Teresa, Martin and Rudi were dead

Marli was in hospital.Emergency unit told Andre they were taking Marli to a better hospital&he shouldnt see condition she was in

Andre says he did not drop off any clothes or food for Henri. He doesn't know where Henri got board shorts,shirt&sandals

A:It was very emotional to see Henri after incident.We hugged each other&cried.When he spoke fast he stutters so we just hugged.

(NOTE: Wondering what this information has to do with the admissibility of Henris statement

Andres wife said the cuts on Henri's chest looked deep&suggested he get stitches.He was very emotional

Andre arrived at the house at 10am after the murders. They stayed around there until 1pm.

They weren't allowed to go into house.They went to stellenbosch medi clinic to see Marli because it's the only hospital in town.

Galloway asks Andre about Henri's wounds. G:'You heard drs testimony that his wounds were not severe,do you agree?'A:I don't agree.

Andre says he heard testimony that Henri was friendly,chatting to staff when he came into hospital to get check up

Andre is finished on the stand. Botha says that concludes his case of the trial within a trial.G says she needs to prepare for

..legal arguments so the court has been adjourned to tomorrow morning at 10am