South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #3

[Tortoise]

No definitely not. I very much doubt whether he would hyperventilate until he realised the enormity of his problem and the need to call the police to report it. I accept there are other possibilities but the "laughing" was picked up on the phone call to the police, unless I am misremembering.

Ah, yes I wasn't referring to him laughing on the phone call, but his story that the attacker was laughing.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I often wonder what the laughing was about. If he was laughing while he was killing, was it deliberate to stop Marli from thinking there was a problem, or was it that he was amused?

The laughing assailant/s? I've thought about this too, it could be one of your theories or, in his wacky imagination, killers who murder innocent families laugh.
It reminds me of Jeffrey MacDonald, who brutally murdered his pregnant wife and 2 children in 1970. He 'survived' the 'home invasion' and was left with tiny wounds (self-inflicted) on his body. He claimed one of the assailants said, 'acid is groovy'! He thought that's what murdering hippies would chant!

HvB did have a giggle though when he rang emergency services after calmly mentioning his family members were bleeding from the head, so he might have been laughing while slaughtering his family.
He's definitely not 'normal' but he knows right from wrong. He looked worried this week, as well he should be, his grandstanding defence team can't save him from a lengthy jail sentence.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Ah, yes I wasn't referring to him laughing on the phone call, but his story that the attacker was laughing.

Sorry tortoise, I completely misread. Skimming the posts again, tut! Yes, the laughing of the intruders. Unless he was going to attempt to pass off screaming as laughter, as in "screaming with laughter" I cannot understand the need to include "laughing" in his story. It would be bizarre for intruders to laugh out loud. His rationale seems very odd.

 

[Interested Bystander]

The laughing assailant/s? I've thought about this too, it could be one of your theories or, in his wacky imagination, killers who murder innocent families laugh.
It reminds me of Jeffrey MacDonald, who brutally murdered his pregnant wife and 2 children in 1970. He 'survived' the 'home invasion' and was left with tiny wounds (self-inflicted) on his body. He claimed one of the assailants said, 'acid is groovy'! He thought that's what murdering hippies would chant!

HvB did have a giggle though when he rang emergency services after calmly mentioning his family members were bleeding from the head, so he might have been laughing while slaughtering his family.
He's definitely not 'normal' but he knows right from wrong. He looked worried this week, as well he should be, his grandstanding defence team can't save him from a lengthy jail sentence.

Do you think he could have had a psychotic/manic episode? I think it has crossed the minds of more than a few of us.

 

[Tortoise]

Yes Prime, he knows right from wrong. The laughing reminds me of a kids' cartoon film, where the baddies have an evil booming laugh when they are winning.

 

[Tortoise]

Do you think he could have had a psychotic/manic episode? I think it has crossed the minds of more than a few of us.

I think it's tempting to think so, because we can't imagine anything else being responsible for such a heinous crime, but I truly believe this was calculated. I also think the wider family must know he did this, and knows he was different, even if they couldn't have predicted it and weren't told what was going on with him.

 

[Interested Bystander]

http://www.capetownetc.com/news/van-breda-trial-day-29/

Article on today in court by Justin Williams.

 

[JudgeJudi]

[FONT=&amp]Desai stroked his moustache‚ Botha’s colleague Matthys Combrink scratched his head with his pen and‚ for most of the morning‚ Henri van Breda played with his ring like a fidget-spinner.

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]http://www.heraldlive.co.za/news/2017/06/07/van-breda-trial-continues-high-court-cape-town/

This was a report from June. It seems he has a bit of a ring-spinning compulsion.
[/FONT]

Not to mention a lot of spinning the truth.

 

[Tortoise]

The assessor sitting with Judge Desai is a DNA expert I believe.

Just to add, I heard her (as most probably did) loud whispering in Desai's ear yesterday during Combrink's cross-exam, prompting him to ask Otto about the control system they have in place for identifying contamination. Where they can identify the profiles of all lab personnel including cleaners and such like.

 

[Tortoise]

Combrink seems to want them to have found more DNA, tested more samples. It's a bit mysterious really because more family DNA in places it shouldn't be isn't really going to help Henri.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Combrink seems to want them to have found more DNA, tested more samples. It's a bit mysterious really because more family DNA in places it shouldn't be isn't really going to help Henri.

Family DNA, as you say, won't help. I rather think he wants Otto to find other DNA in the house and, of course, there should be, eg the housekeeper, visitors, workmen. Unless one keeps the home sterile I think it is a foregone conclusion that there will be other DNA. He then can proffer an argument that there have been other people in the house. I think that premise is valueless because when it comes to the murder itself the DNA already available to them leads to one conclusion only but he will use it as an instrument of argument and thereby prolong the case. At the moment all I see from the DT is an attempt to keep HvB out of prison for as long as they possibly can; meanwhile raking in huge emoluments. Cynical? Yes I am, very.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I think it's tempting to think so, because we can't imagine anything else being responsible for such a heinous crime, but I truly believe this was calculated. I also think the wider family must know he did this, and knows he was different, even if they couldn't have predicted it and weren't told what was going on with him.

When you say calculated, do you mean with some forethought, ie days or possibly months and, due to the argument, he decided he would commit the crime that night? I can see, if we assume he was very unhappy (which everybody seems to deny), it could have crossed his mind to "do away" with his family and end his "torment" but he has made so many mistakes he hadn't planned it very well.

There is something odd about HvB which is "hard to put a finger on". Could be he has a psychological problem known only to the immediate family. I have got the impression that his father, in particular, may have expected an abnormal degree of perfection in his children. Marli would know but it doesn't look very likely she will take the stand. Marli's boyfriend, in his text message, alluded to problems within the family about which their extended family appeared to know nothing. There also seemed to be a problem between HvB's mother and father where, if I remember correctly, she felt she was overly restricted by her husband. It does seem the family dynamics were not as hunky dory as we have been led to believe.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Tortoise, I think I posted this a long while back. It is an interesting short piece by a reporter looking into HvB's background in Australia. We have no way of knowing how accurate this is but, if correct, it does look as though his behaviour deteriorated at university (possibly due to drugs) and he dropped out of his course and returned "home". What we don't know is if the behavioural changes involved any violence.

Apologies, I have deleted part of the article and lost the link. I will add it again when I find it.

Oh dear, I cannot find it in my history. The story is there but it comes up behind a pay wall.

 

[Tortoise]

When you say calculated, do you mean with some forethought, ie days or possibly months and, due to the argument, he decided he would commit the crime that night? I can see, if we assume he was very unhappy (which everybody seems to deny), it could have crossed his mind to "do away" with his family and end his "torment" but he has made so many mistakes he hadn't planned it very well.

There is something odd about HvB which is "hard to put a finger on". Could be he has a psychological problem known only to the immediate family. I have got the impression that his father, in particular, may have expected an abnormal degree of perfection in his children. Marli would know but it doesn't look very likely she will take the stand. Marli's boyfriend, in his text message, alluded to problems within the family about which their extended family appeared to know nothing. There also seemed to be a problem between HvB's mother and father where, if I remember correctly, she felt she was overly restricted by her husband. It does seem the family dynamics were not as hunky dory as we have been led to believe.

By calculated I mean he made a decision to do what he did while in his normal frame of mind. I don't believe there was any delusion, distortion due to drugs, or separation from reality. And I base that on several factors.

1. He remembers what happened. We can tell that because he has an excuse for the evidence - he knows what time it happened so he has a story to account for how long he was awake and busy before the attack started, he knows where the knife ended up so he has a story of pulling it out of his side and dropping it, he knows what order the family were attacked in because he has the scenario to fit and merely replaces himself with the attacker.

2. He made a plan. If he hadn't removed Sasha the dog before he attacked the family she would have been covered in blood, left paw prints everywhere in blood, and would probably have barked and raised the neighbours. He coped single handed with four people, three of whom were up and able to run. Just one escapee would have seen him jailed for life, so he had a plan for it.

3. He did quite a good clean up job. Left enough so that it wouldn't look cleaned up, but left no prints on the axe handle and only one on the knife blade. There were hardly any blood traces left in the shower. I haven't heard that he left bloody foot prints in his bathroom, or if he did I've forgotten.

4. He was methodical. He knew to harm himself (but was inhibited and avoided tender places) and harmed himself after showering so that family blood would be washed away but there would be blood on him from his own wounds so he wouldn't look showered.

5. He made immediate google searches before his 3 hour wait, which I wouldn't expect from someone in a psychotic state.

6. It followed a family argument, so there was probable cause.

 

[Tortoise]

I think it's possible his stutter is another clue to his troubles. Speaking specifically about him that is and not the general population with a speech impediment.

 

[Interested Bystander]

By calculated I mean he made a decision to do what he did while in his normal frame of mind. I don't believe there was any delusion, distortion due to drugs, or separation from reality. And I base that on several factors.

1. He remembers what happened. We can tell that because he has an excuse for the evidence - he knows what time it happened so he has a story to account for how long he was awake and busy before the attack started, he knows where the knife ended up so he has a story of pulling it out of his side and dropping it, he knows what order the family were attacked in because he has the scenario to fit and merely replaces himself with the attacker.

2. He made a plan. If he hadn't removed Sasha the dog before he attacked the family she would have been covered in blood, left paw prints everywhere in blood, and would probably have barked and raised the neighbours. He coped single handed with four people, three of whom were up and able to run. Just one escapee would have seen him jailed for life, so he had a plan for it.

3. He did quite a good clean up job. Left enough so that it wouldn't look cleaned up, but left no prints on the axe handle and only one on the knife blade. There were hardly any blood traces left in the shower. I haven't heard that he left bloody foot prints in his bathroom, or if he did I've forgotten.

4. He was methodical. He knew to harm himself (but was inhibited and avoided tender places) and harmed himself after showering so that family blood would be washed away but there would be blood on him from his own wounds so he wouldn't look showered.

5. He made immediate google searches before his 3 hour wait, which I wouldn't expect from someone in a psychotic state.

6. It followed a family argument, so there was probable cause.

Excellent, I can see exactly where you are coming from and agree. They were such savage murders I was beginning to think nobody in their right mind could do something like that.

 

[Fluffykins]

Wow, Tortoise - that's a terrific analysis. Thank you for that. :tyou:

 

[Really?]

Morning all.........heck, where is everybody???....

 

[L2L]

Morning all.........heck, where is everybody???....

Present! Morning/evening all!

 

[JudgeJudi]

Everyone entered the court 6 minutes ago.