South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #3

[Tortoise]

Right I've found his plea. Interestingly he says about the struggle -

"I stepped forward and grabbed his wrist and right hand in which he was carrying the axe with both my hands." Later when wrestling for the knife he adds "I was able to grab his right forearm and his right hand with my left. ...I was still holding onto his right forearm ..."

No mention of clothing covering the wrist and hand, and that might have been the logical opportunity to mention it.

About clothing he says -

"As far as I could see the attacker was dressed in dark clothes and he wore gloves and a balaclava type of mask."

Thinking about secondary transfer, I suppose Galloway might argue that the attacker's clothing (and the axe) would have been covered with the blood of Rudi, Martin, Teresa and Marli, and this would have transferred to the rest of the house, back door, wall and gate, and onto Henri more than it did, during the struggle and when Henri took hold of the axe.

 

[Interested Bystander]

OT. For those of us watching the Robyn Mercer murder a man has been arrested and charged with her murder. The suspect seems to be living in the same street.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

The defence are attempting to discredit Otto's lab probably with the aid of scathing criticisms made by Dr David Klatzow about the inefficiency of police at crime scenes, and the interpretation and processing of forensic evidence 'incorrectly'. An S.A person brought his name up in the chat box. This article is 3 yrs old and it's basically a promotion for Klatzow's book.

Significant changes have been made since then and B/C couldn't find fault with the police handling of the Van Breda crime scene, so the forensics lab and their dna results and interpretation are up for close scrutiny, they're hoping to completely invalidate those results, a big win if Judge Desai agrees.


David Klatzow has a simple message for anyone accused of a crime in South Africa: don’t expect to get a fair ride.
.....

“This is handed out as the best our police can do,” Klatzow said. He added that if Pistorius were to be convicted, it would be in spite of the police work on the case, not because of it.

Klatzow also hit out at the state’s forensic laboratories, saying it could still take two years to get a blood sample back, and up to eight years for toxicology results.

“If you have a spouse to knock off, now’s the time to do it,” he said. “And do it with poison.”

But not everyone agrees that the picture is as negative as Klatzow makes out.
......
“I reckon that there are issues, but I like to be constructive,” Vanessa Lynch, the founder of South Africa’s DNA Project, told the Daily Maverick on Wednesday. She points out that when it comes to old cases, police could only rely on the forensic evidence available at the time.

“In the past, hair shaft analysis was considered to be cutting edge,” Lynch says. “It’s subsequently been recognised that it’s an inexact science. As we’re exposed to more and more forensic processes, we are able to get closer to the truth.”

“In the past, hair shaft analysis was considered to be cutting edge,” Lynch says. “It’s subsequently been recognised that it’s an inexact science. As we’re exposed to more and more forensic processes, we are able to get closer to the truth.”

Lynch acknowledged that substantial challenges remain, but she maintains that forensic evidence – and particularly DNA – is one of the firmest forms of criminal evidence in existence (as opposed to, say, eye-witness testimony). While the Pistorius case was dominating headlines, the DNA Project attempted to use it as a way of educating the public about the need to keep crime scenes undisturbed. “When you don’t disturb a crime scene, forensic evidence has the power to determine exactly what happened,” the DNA Project’s website instructed.

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-08-14-sa-forensics-a-bloody-mess/#.WY5v6tR97Gg

 

[Tortoise]

The defence (annoyingly) did make some headway with all their bluster this week. I think it's a bit of a hollow victory for them though.

As far as I could glean there are two areas they had success with.

One was to do with a test they gave Otto, concerning mixed DNA of blood and semen from an assault case. I believe they gave the test to something like 190 labs and only 3 of those labs gave the same answer as Otto. The defence contends that Otto (and the 3 labs) got the wrong answer because the SOPs (standard operating procedures) they follow are faulty. Otto contends that she got the answer correct based on the SOPs. My understanding, although I admit I haven't checked up on whether I heard correctly, is that they extracted the DNA profile for the semen to identify the attacker, and I'm not certain about this but possibly assumed the blood was the victims or got a match for the victim but didn't check for a third party DNA. I think what the defence was getting at was that they are biased already by what they are looking for. I'll have a look back and compare my understanding to what is in the court tweets.

The other was to do with the results from the shower. Otto explained that every child has 50% of their mother's DNA and 50% of their father's DNA. The upshot of this is that Teresa's DNA being in the shower could just be the maternal DNA present in Henri's and Rudi's DNA - Otto conceded that she couldn't say for sure that it meant Teresa's blood was in the shower.

My question is - if that is the case, why wasn't Martin's DNA also found in the results - being present as it is in Henri's and Rudi's DNA.

We haven't seen photos of the crime scene but I imagine the shower cubicle has walls and a glass door, if it is similar to the one we've seen in the parents' bathroom. It sounds like the chances of blood, if the defence will argue it is spatter, ending up on the floor of the shower is extremely remote, even if Henri had the bathroom door open wide enough and the shower door was also open. Particularly Henri's blood since he wasn't attacked with force at all. But then again the defence might argue it is skin cells from normal use of the shower, which hadn't been cleaned that day, and not blood at all. Especially since Martin's and Marli's blood wasn't found.

I think reluctantly I have to concede that it was a good week for the defence, concerning DNA. Otto made a big concession concerning Teresa's DNA there. Why she didn't raise the issue I've raised about paternal DNA being necessarily also present if the maternal DNA argument holds weight, I have no clue, maybe she was tired by the end of the examination. Or I have a bad understanding of DNA. I did fail my sciences after all.

Blood DNA of family members being on Henri's shorts and fingernails is neither here nor there. He admits he held the axe.

 

[Tortoise]

We didn't hear about the mop or the cloths, or the towel with the apparent blood stain.

 

[Interested Bystander]

As ever, excellent deductions Tortoise. With the lack of anyone else's DNA at the murder scene and Otto admitting that if the intruder was completely covered by clothing he may not have left any DNA at the scene, Desai is going to have to work through HvB's story and determine how likely it is. Not very IMO. He does have the forensics report stating there were no unknown footprints at the scene and apparent cleaning away of evidence. Hopefully that will be a counter balance and what he would think of the huge time lapse in calling for help and Henri showering himself (destruction of evidence) together with the many changes in his story, one hopes that Desai will not have a problem with the verdict. Before DNA was available this would have been an open and shut case.

 

[Tortoise]

As ever, excellent deductions Tortoise. With the lack of anyone else's DNA at the murder scene and Otto admitting that if the intruder was completely covered by clothing he may not have left any DNA at the scene, Desai is going to have to work through HvB's story and determine how likely it is. Not very IMO. He does have the forensics report stating there were no unknown footprints at the scene and apparent cleaning away of evidence. Hopefully that will be a counter balance and what he would think of the huge time lapse in calling for help and Henri showering himself (destruction of evidence) together with the many changes in his story, one hopes that Desai will not have a problem with the verdict. Before DNA was available this would have been an open and shut case.

Exactly IB.

It is interesting that the defence declined to test any of the samples themselves - I don't think that will have escaped Desai's attention - Otto made a big point about that. If they are so sure it was an intruder they would want to catch the intruder right? Henri would have a massive incentive to find him. And as Galloway said, they made a huge fuss over sample 63 (I think that was the number) - the stain on the laundry or the pantry door and then never did anything with the extra paperwork they'd requested Otto provide.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Always worth a read.

http://www.capetownetc.com/news/van-breda-trial-day-31/

Van Breda trial Day 31 – Family’s blood on Henri’s shorts may not be a trump card after all
Article by Tracey Stewart (Traceyams)

(I am hoping the link stays true for this one)

 

[Tortoise]

I'm quite disappointed that they can't be sure whether it is Teresa's DNA or not. She wouldn't have Martin's DNA in her blood for example, whereas the children obviously would.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Sharlene Otto standing her ground

 

[Interested Bystander]

EWN News Report

http://ewn.co.za/2017/08/11/van-breda-trial-defence-attacks-procedures-followed-to-gather-evidence

Comments on this article are interesting.

 

[Tortoise]

So who have they got lined up for next 2 weeks I wonder.

The case is scheduled until Aug 24th. Then it will adjourn until the next available date.

I'm wondering if there is more to come on computer searches.

We have yet to hear from the blood spatter analyst, and Marli, if she is going to be called.

Were we promised a neurologist to talk about the long faint?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

EWN News Report

http://ewn.co.za/2017/08/11/van-breda-trial-defence-attacks-procedures-followed-to-gather-evidence

Comments on this article are interesting.

Someone in comments is very knowledgeable about dna especially with regards to visitors.

The State should bring to Judge Desai's attention that Precious Munyongani worked Monday, Wed & Fri. The family were killed Monday night which means the house was thoroughly cleaned beforehand, there'd be very little trace if any if there were visitors on the weekend. I'm confident J Desai is taking notes.




Munyongani also testified that Teresa, Rudi and Henri mostly stayed at home when she worked for the family on a Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

She said they never argued and mostly conversed in Afrikaans.

Munyongani also testified that she saw the family for the last time on the Monday before the murders, but never picked up anything different about them.

.....

Bianca van der Westhuizen, a friend of Henri van Breda, also testified on Wednesday afternoon. She attended the same school as Marli.

Henri took her for an ice cream the Monday afternoon before the murders; thereafter he dropped her at home around 5.15 pm.

http://www.news24.com/You/Archive/van-breda-trial-could-this-be-the-axe-used-in-the-murders-20170728

Highlighting what HvB did on the Monday.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

So who have they got lined up for next 2 weeks I wonder.

The case is scheduled until Aug 24th. Then it will adjourn until the next available date.

I'm wondering if there is more to come on computer searches.

We have yet to hear from the blood spatter analyst, and Marli, if she is going to be called.

Were we promised a neurologist to talk about the long faint?

Surely there'd be droplets of blood dripping from the 'intruder/s' clothing on driveway, down the lane or on blades of grass outside the houses? If the intruder changed clothes inside the house they would've left considerable amount of dna skin cells and hair etc. How could they walk anywhere without distributing blood, he would have been soaked in blood.

I'm hoping the neurologist will throw the 2 hr 40 min 'semi-coma' out the window! lease:

 

[JudgeJudi]

RSBM

The other was to do with the results from the shower. Otto explained that every child has 50% of their mother's DNA and 50% of their father's DNA. The upshot of this is that Teresa's DNA being in the shower could just be the maternal DNA present in Henri's and Rudi's DNA - Otto conceded that she couldn't say for sure that it meant Teresa's blood was in the shower.

My question is - if that is the case, why wasn't Martin's DNA also found in the results - being present as it is in Henri's and Rudi's DNA.

We're stepping into dangerous territory trying to work out anything to do with DNA, but this may be an answer to your question.

Genetically, you actually carry more of your mother’s genes than your father’s. That’s because of little organelles that live within your cells, the mitochondria, which you only receive from your mother.

Tissues that require a lot of energy, such as your brain and your muscles, have cells packed with mitochondria. Because all mitochondria you received come from your mother only, you are technically more related to your mum than you are to your dad.

[URL]http://theconversation.com/do-you-share-more-genes-with-your-mother-or-your-father-50076[/URL]

 

[Tortoise]

<snipped>

Highlighting what HvB did on the Monday.

And I recall Precious saying Rudi was sleeping, I think with a blanket and pillow, on the sofa.

How odd is that for a 22 year old, unless he was feeling unwell?

I may be going off into wild fantasy here but maybe Rudi didn't feel safe sleeping at night in a room with Henri, and had to catch up on sleep during the day. Just thinking about whether he took the knife upstairs for protection if Henri had been behaving weirdly.

 

[Tortoise]

RSBM


We're stepping into dangerous territory trying to work out anything to do with DNA, but this may be an answer to your question.

Genetically, you actually carry more of your mother&#8217;s genes than your father&#8217;s. That&#8217;s because of little organelles that live within your cells, the mitochondria, which you only receive from your mother.

Tissues that require a lot of energy, such as your brain and your muscles, have cells packed with mitochondria. Because all mitochondria you received come from your mother only, you are technically more related to your mum than you are to your dad.

http://theconversation.com/do-you-share-more-genes-with-your-mother-or-your-father-50076

I wonder why she gave the percentages for DNA as 50/50 then. I'll leave it to the experts

 

[Interested Bystander]

Interesting article on gene inheritance:-

https://www.quora.com/In-what-ratio...ild-Is-there-any-credibility-to-this-thinking

“Technically it depends on whether the child is male or female in the normal individual human. The difference comes in the X and Y chromosomes. The Y chromosome has less genetic material in it so that males will inherit potentially fewer genetic traits from their father. That's because the male will be inheriting a Y from their father and an X from their mother. Females inherit an X from each parent. That means they have equal potential traits ………………”

 

[JudgeJudi]

I spent some time :lookingitup: This explains it fairly simply.

A gene is a segment of DNA that is passed down from parents to children and confers a trait to the offspring. Genes are organized and packaged in units called chromosomes. Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes - one set comes from the mother and one set from the father.

Of these 23 pairs, one pair are sex chromosomes so differ depending on whether you are male or female (XX for females or XY for males).

The male parent determines the sex of a child as he carries both X and Y chromosomes while women only carry X. The sex is determined by whether the sperm that fertilizes the egg is carrying another X or a Y.

Every cell in your body contains two physical copies of every gene. DNA is located in other parts of the cell called mitochondria which is only inherited from the mother.

Mitochondrial DNA is transferred from mother to daughter, generation after generation. The mitochondrial DNA in a son, which he got from his mother, will not be used in his children.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I’m hoping we hear from a neurosurgeon this week. HvB has engaged the services of a Dr Mike du Trevou who can testify about Henri's injuries which apparently left him unconscious.