South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #3

[JudgeJudi]

Can't recall if she dealt with a non-conformance. Analysed 216, might have been a non-conformance, but when report was sent out, there wasn't an outstanding non-conformance.

She doesn't keep record of non-conformance. It is registered at lab, but they don't keep record in their case files.

Combrink says this was not provided to the defence. Otto says no, it was not requested.

Combrink questions lab accreditation. Otto says she was working at the lab for 24 years, their lab is not accredited. The only difference between them and an accredited lab is an audit by SANAS.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...secutor-as-van-breda-trial-continues-20170808

Haha, Combrink's trying to make an issue out of the fact that they don't have accreditation, BUT SA uses this government body. What, are they going to say no DNA testing can be used in SA trials? Right.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Accreditation is not a legal requirement. Follow ISO guidelines. Hopefully by early next year they will be accredited.

Accreditation is a nice to have.

Compliance to international standard is more important, Otto says.

A lab can be accredited and a month later they can lose their accreditation.
It is important that they have been applying to be accredited she says.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...secutor-as-van-breda-trial-continues-20170808

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Otto: we analyzed 216 samples there might have been non compliance along the way

No non conformance was addressed so I assume there had not be. Record is kept but we don't keep that record

Otto- no non conformance report was provided to the defense

Otto: in 24 years I have been working at the Lab, all these years we are still aspiring to accreditation

Otto: the only difference between us and accredited labs is that they undergo a SANAS audit

Otto: Accreditation of a laboratory is not a legal requirement. We aren't accredited we follow ISO guidelines hopefully next yr

Otto: we will apply for accreditation but accreditation is not proof of perfect laboratory it is a nice to have

Otto: I think accreditation is an international standards. In US and UK its a legal requirement its not a legal requirement in SA

Otto: it may be in line with international standards but what is important is compliance with international standards

Otto: should lab be accredited and you believe its results, 3 months later it loses its acccreditation- that happens?

Desai-are you audited? Otto: we are not audited by external bodies we are audited internally

Otto: the way we approach science in our lab is not in isolation we are on par with the rest

Combrink: Accreditation causes and external audit. Where no accreditation we just need to go on the lab saying- we do it correctly

Otto; The best is to ensure that our personnel are tested. We do not have a lot of accredited labs

 

[JudgeJudi]

Duplicate tests will prove it is trustworthy. We don't have many accredited laboratories in SA.

In 2000, the FSL had professed it was on the verge of being accredited, Combrink says.

It is possible, Otto says.

Otto says one of the main reasons why is that because the layman would think that because not accredited, results may not be as reliable. There is exception by bodies and the courts that accreditation is the answer to reliability.????

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...secutor-as-van-breda-trial-continues-20170808

 

[JudgeJudi]

Seems like the defence don't have a leg to stand on so they're deflecting.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Combrink- but paternity labs are all accredited? Otto- they are but they do not do forensics

Combrink: in 2000 the lab professed that you were on the verge of being accredited

Otto: possibly as mentioned for 24 years we have aspired to be accredited

Otto: questions like this in cross examination aspires accreditation . Lay persons will now assume we are not good

OttO: Accreditation is assumed to be the answer

Galloway: She has said its not a legal requirement and why it is not done COmbrink should put that to someone in management

Combrink: it is done as it creates perception and reality to public that they can trust the lab it objective

Otto: as mentioned its not a legal requirement, we follows ISOS and we do vertical and horizontal audits internally

Otto: it is not in my hands, its top management they need to enforce everything I am just an analyst. A girl doing the lab work

Combrink: You have told me cross examination is why you want to be accredited- tell me why does it not become reality

Combrink: what are the practical reasons for not getting accreditation

Otto: I have no idea why

Desai- do you follow the same checks and balances? Otto - yes we do and we comply with ISO

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Is this a problem though? They're not accredited? No audit by external?

The secrecy must have been about patent, the system/process they use?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Combrink: there is a lot of case law criticizing labs not being accredited?

Desai- is there case law?

C- yes

Desai-local?

C mumbles

Combrink: u receive samples at the reception?

Otto: is this general overview of the process if specific put it to another officer

Combrink: I am sure you as a senior officer can let us know, we will try and make it general dealing with things you would know

Otto: we have a centralized case management section, all exhibits handed in and registered. Lab nr allocated to CAS

Combrink: if from deceased person from morgue references will have WC on it. It will be sealed. CAS Nr is the important nr

Otto: Analyst for example W.O New as she works through exhibits she will mark them with the lab number

 

[JudgeJudi]

Combrink asks why they are not accredited. Otto says she doesn't know. She says they work for SAPS and its management, she has no idea why it didn't go any further.

Samples received at a case management and reception section where exhibits handed in and registered. A lab number is allocated to a Cas number.

It must be sealed, unsealed not accepted. If from morgue they have reference numbers, Cas number is the important aspect.

If in one big bag, lab number will be outside on the big bag, case file allocated and handed to analyst.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...secutor-as-van-breda-trial-continues-20170808

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Combrink: Duvet covers were sent to you by Captain Joubert. Otto-yes we received from him as a client or detectives as client

Combrink: you got cuttings taken out of the duvet? Otto:yes as far as I understand Joubert has to work on the whole exhibit

Otto: if duvet cover,big piece of cloth,he deals with whole piece and he makes the cuttings, I use and refer to duvet C1,C2,C3 etc

Combrink: so the cuttings he does in his own lab? Otto: Yes. C:so you only receive cuttings he does in his own lab? Yes

Otto: I am not person who can give evidence on the cuttings and how they were made etc. Combrink and the shorts? Otto:same process

Combrink: when he does cuttings does it move to W.O Nel? Otto: I am not sure I think she would just place in bags

 

[JudgeJudi]

Analyst will then mark all exhibits with lab number.

Combrink asks about the duvets. Covers were sent by Captain Joubert. Otto says yes, he is also a client, can be received by him or by detective.

Cuttings from duvet were also received. Otto says he has to work on whole exhibit, he would make cuttings and go into individual envelopes and marked it.

He has his own lab, Otto says. He would seal it and send back to case reception and then come back to them.

Same process happened with shorts.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...secutor-as-van-breda-trial-continues-20170808

 

[Tortoise]

c90 blood stains on the shorts!

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

She would have done the preliminary analysis of what she receives from the crime scene officers

Otto: Warrant officer Nel would prepare the Hema Sticks *this is the disputed blood wiped away analysis*

I was involved in the process to decide which results to submit, after considering possible evidentiary value

If it was a stain he would make a small cutting, or take a swab and place it in a tube and administer barcode

Those submissions would have been submitted electronically

Otto: for bigger case, with so many samples I assisted but its not the norm, they usually decide themselves

Combrink: what does he base that decision on, what has evidentiary value

Otto: they are all trained analysts they are taught from day 1 how to think forensically

Otto: If I have 50 samples of the same result why would I submit all 50 when I can choose one

We will consider when we have a suspect and a victim what the evidentiary value is-

Combrink: how do you know to take that into account and decide your blood on your robe is fine and my blood on my jacket is fine?

Otto: we receive a covering letter and we can contact detectives

The main reason we do not submit immediately. DNA is so sensitive and we do not have unlimited funds. so we look at the examples

And take a decision on the amount of samples to submit

Combrink" so its a cost thing? Otto its a huge cost. So at some point you consider cost versus evidentiary value

In this instance I was lead to a huge extent by the blood stain analyst

Otto: Analysis was done at different times, so he helped me look at the shirt - 90+ stains so we decided to randomly pick

Otto: so we decided this together.We do not deal with one case at a time, we deal with many at a time we cant plug our system with samples from only one case.

COmbrink: so again its a cost issue, Otto: its costs and time and other cases

 

[JudgeJudi]

Otto says this was a big case with extremely many samples.

Analysts are all specialists. If have 50 samples taken in one room, why send 50? Why not do 10? They know how to think forensically.

Have to check the evidentiary value, Otto says.

Get cover letter detailing the background of the case.
DNA analysis is extremely expensive. SAPS don't have unlimited funds. They have to find a way to look at the samples and decide what to put through the process.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...secutor-as-van-breda-trial-continues-20170808

 

[JudgeJudi]

Otto says in this instance, she was led by the blood stain pattern analyst. He checked first - before shorts came he analysed it.
Analysis was done at different time. He helped her because they couldn't submit 90 stains. Randomly picked stains.

If you have to deal with 90 stains when you can do 40, then later another 40, then 10, then you can have more samples from other exhibits.

Cost and time and other cases need to be considered.

All stains for possible blood on shorts were analysed.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...secutor-as-van-breda-trial-continues-20170808

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Combrink: so you submitted representative examples of the shorts- Otto- yes

Otto: as far as I remember all the stains that were positive for blood were sent for testing

Otto: I said ppl working in DNA process are working blindly I never said people doing preliminary testing, submissions and cutting are not dealing blindly

Combrink: if I gave you example you involved in fight and alot of different sources and police decided to only test one spot

C: then that informs the entire process? There could be other sources of DNA on that t-shirt? So its an NB decision made there

C: Do u agree its crucial decision- what is going to be tested and what is not? Otto: defence have SOPS with them

Otto: they would know there is an SOP guiding the issue you have mentioned

Otto:it states in any case multiple victims then everything must be submitted. I am only saying everything had not been submitted at the beginning, it was a time issue, everything was submitted. Because there were 5 victims. So everything submitted

Combrink but you said you make a decision on sample or analysis to do, thats crucial decision

 

[Interested Bystander]

It is a great pity Desai doesn't intervene with a timewasting suggestion. We are going round in ever smaller circles.

Is this an attempt to get all DNA samples thrown out because the lab is not accredited even though it is not required in SA.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I admire Otto's patience.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I admire Otto's patience.

as other trial watchers are saying, Combrink/Botha wears the witness down until they agree, like a slow torture. :/

 

[JudgeJudi]

Otto says people working in DNA process is working blindly.

In this instance where defence has all SOPs, they would have noticed that SOP guiding that says when there are multiple victims, multiple suspects, that everything must be submitted.

Everything had been but in this instance, it had not been submitted from the beginning.

Everything had been analysed and submitted, but situation meant there were five victims.
In this case, nothing was missed.

Otto says if she has one suspect, one victim, one blood stain, she will do that one stain.
If one victim, one suspect, and she has a stain on front and back, she will do both.

SOPs guide them. We are trained in checking evidentiary value.

At any time in investigation they can get more samples.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...secutor-as-van-breda-trial-continues-20170808