South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi Van Breda, 22, Murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #5

[patCee]

Interesting post conviction conversation with a reporter who was in court, and William Booth. Booth says that medical facility where Henri is being held is not a hospital, and although his medical needs may be met, this is limited with a small team looking after several thousand prisoners.
WATCH: Van Breda guilty of murdering his family; here's everything we know...

 

[JudgeJudi]

Thanks JJ, yes, I did wonder if that might have been a ground for appeal and am very glad to hear it isn't. :relieved: (making up my own non-existent smiley, lol)

I know Tortoise said it's unappealable, and on the face of it I absolutely agree; there certainly shouldn't be any grounds for appeal, but ... I can't help but think there will be an appeal because - and this goes back to a point made in the third part of your posts of the Labuschagne and Stollarz interview:

You get family members – the family gets very divided. Half the family supports the accused, believing that he’s innocent and the half of the family doesn’t, even after conviction, which happened with Henri. His remaining family believes he’s innocent.

Q. Do they believe he’s innocent even if it’s overwhelmingly pointing in their direction.

A. No. I think they just like to maintain the pretence for whatever reasons, because I think I think if they admitted it, then they’d lose their other family support also.

I'm assuming it's the extended family who are administering the family's estate, and if they've seen fit to fund Henri's trial thus far, then who of them is going to refuse to fund an appeal? Who would be game to stand up against the majority opinion? I don't think I would be.

I'd be beyond amazed if HvB didn't appeal. It was a very difficult case and no lawyers were prepared to say which way the verdict would go. It's "only" a question of funding, and there's a lot of money to "waste" on an appeal. After an appeal, and the conviction and sentence are upheld, any inheritance monies that would otherwise have gone to HvB will be forfeited and no doubt go to Marli.

The Summary of Judgment covered virtually every single major point that I can think of, but no doubt the full Judgment covers many more minor matters. I can't see any appeal succeeding, but of course anything is possible.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Interesting post conviction conversation with a reporter who was in court, and William Booth. Booth says that medical facility where Henri is being held is not a hospital, and although his medical needs may be met, this is limited with a small team looking after several thousand prisoners.
WATCH: Van Breda guilty of murdering his family; here's everything we know...

That’s correct, they’re only wings or sections of a prison.

What do Schabir Shaik, Oscar Pistorius, Radovan Krejcir, Tony Yengeni and now Henri van Breda have in common? They have all been high-profile inmates of South African prisons who have been kept in the hospital wings of jails rather than in the general cells. This is despite the fact that, in some cases, their medical conditions have seemed relatively trivial. Meanwhile, less privileged prisoners often struggle to get medical attention even when they desperately need it.

Van Breda now joins a list of rich or powerful inmates who have found their way into medical facilities or the hospital wings of local prisons rather than the general cells.

“Critical to note is that a hospital wing is inside a correctional facility and the only difference is that it is designed to cater for inmates in need of medical care”.

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2018-05-22-rich-and-going-to-prison-welcome-to-the-hospital-wing/#.Wwi18jEh3Bw

There’s a huge photo at the top of the article and you may recognise one of the uncles there.

 

[Tortoise]

Was it that Henri didn't like the way Judge Desai dealt with Dr Olckers? That's the only thing I can think of that the defence might be able to use in an appeal.

No, I've only remembered that it was a line in the summary judgement that stood alone, it was not backed up by reason or if you like, weighing. It was such a long document that took me virtually all day to read and it's going to take me an age to find it again (should have made a note!) but I will try to find it. In the overall scheme of things I'm not sure it would lead to an appeal but as I said it was just a niggle I had when I read it. The weight of all the evidence was what mattered in this case.

Okay I found the part. It's under the heading:

A Second Axe and the absence of Marli's Blood on Exhibit 1 (the Axe) (pg 39/40).

I've set out the paragraph contents (in my own words) to be clear in my own mind that the content isn't based on testimony.

The first paragraph sets out the State's case that all the victims were attacked with Exhibit 1, and the Defence's case that a second assailant attacked Marli with a second axe.

The second paragraph discusses Joubert's evidence that Marli was attacked with an axe similar to Exhibit 1, Dr Anthony's evidence that Marli's injuries were similar to those of the 3 deceased (in nature and measurement), Prof Dempers' evidence of the similarities of the wounds of all 4 victims; and the court's opinion that it is unlikely that a second attacker would bring along an axe similar to the one in the house causing similar injuries and using the same degree of force as the first attacker.

The third paragraph discusses Olcker's evidence that she couldn't explain the presence of Marli's touch DNA on the axe or how long it had been there.

The fourth paragraph deals with the DNA of Teresa and Rudi and Martin on the axe.

The fifth paragraph deals with the court's opinion that it is highly unlikely that Teresa and Marli were attacked at more or less the same time, in the same confined space, by two similar weapons and two attackers.

Then in paragraph 6 the court opines (exact words): "The axe did not have as much blood on it as would be expected, if it was used in so many murders. All the victims were struck multiple times. When one used the axe repeatedly and the axe impacted with the next victims, blood would be "projected" from the axe."

--

As I said it was just a niggle. My immediate thought was that this is a court finding, not based in witness evidence. Now that I look at it again I've changed my mind. It was my impression also that there wasn't as much blood on the axe as I expected to see. I think the court is perfectly entitled to point this out, leaving the inference that the axe was cleaned, and not having to provide a factual or scientific basis for how much blood there should be in such a situation, based in expert testimony. Also the paragraph is slightly contradictory, and it kind of supports the defence case (ever so slightly) in that had it been used on a fourth victim (Marli) it should be even bloodier, but at the same time it doesn't really because it begs the question why isn't there much of anyone's (Rudi, Martin and Teresa's) blood on the axe either?

See, who needs others to argue with when I can do it perfectly well on my own?

 

[Tortoise]

I've set out all the headings of the Summary Judgement with page numbers to make it easier to search (if anyone else here is as mad as me and wishes to refer to it)

Page Number / Heading
1. (Introduction)
2. The Plea
3. The Legal Issue
4. The Van Breda Family
5. Security and Layout of De Zalze Estate:
5. - General Layout and Functionality of the System
6. - The Night of the Murders
7. - Visitors and the Access Controlled Gates. The Integrity of the Perimeter Itself
8. - The Functionality and the Integrity of the Fence
11. The Emergency Call and the Demeanour of the Accused
18. The Time Period between the Incident and Attempts to Obtain Assistance:
18. - Loss of Consciousness
19. - Examinations by General Practitioners and the Possibility of Concussion
20. - Comment on the Period of Unconsciousness and Brain Injury by a Specialist Forensic Pathologist Dr Tiemensma
21. - Possible Reasons Advanced by a Neurosurgeon for the Loss of Consciousness and the Period, Dr Du Trevou
23. - The Loss of Consciousness and the Significance of the Blood Flow Patterns
24. - Reason for the Loss of Consciousness and Period Advanced by a Neurosurgeon Dr Butler
31. The Scene of the Crime and Demeanour of the Accused
34. Visits to Medical Practitioners and the Demeanour of the Accused
36. Visits to the Family House and the Demeanour of the Accused
36. The Demeanour of the Accused in Court
37. The Weapons Used during the Commission of the Crimes:
37. - The Axe (Exhibit 1)
37. - The Place where the Axe Originated From
39. - A Second Axe and the Absence of Marli's Blood on Exhibit 1
41. - A Second Axe and the Absence of Marli's Blood on the Accused's Shorts and Socks
42. - Concessions by the Accused regarding a Second Axe
43. -Conclusion re Second Axe
44. - The Knife (Exhibit 2)
44. Motive of Alleged Intruder(s) and the Weapons Used
45. The Severity of the Attack
46. Motive to Commit the crimes
48. The Intention of the Perpetrator
50. The Injuries of the Accused
51. Possible Self-Inflicted Wounds
58. Collection of Forensic Samples and Exhibits
59. Basis on which the DNA results were challenged
68. The Relevance of the Blood Stain Patterns and the DNA Results
74. The Relevance of the Impact Marks at the Crime Scene
76. Shoe Prints at the Crime Scene
76. Fingerprints found at the Crime Scene
78. The Number of Intruders
79. Description of the Attacker(s)
80. The Accused as a Witness and his Version
81. The Accused's Version at the Scene
81. Trial Within a Trial
86. The Discrepancies between the Plea Explanation of the Accused, his Statement to the Police and his Testimony in Court
94. The Accused's Testimony regarding his Behaviour and Other Aspects during the events on the Night of the Murders
98. Conclusion

Link to Summary Judgement:-
Van Breda murder trial: summary judgment in full | Concussion | Epilepsy

 

[tmar]

I've set out all the headings of the Summary Judgement with page numbers to make it easier to search (if anyone else here is as mad as me and wishes to refer to it)

Page Number / Heading
1. (Introduction)
2. The Plea
3. The Legal Issue
4. The Van Breda Family
5. Security and Layout of De Zalze Estate:
5. - General Layout and Functionality of the System
6. - The Night of the Murders
7. - Visitors and the Access Controlled Gates. The Integrity of the Perimeter Itself
8. - The Functionality and the Integrity of the Fence
11. The Emergency Call and the Demeanour of the Accused
18. The Time Period between the Incident and Attempts to Obtain Assistance:
18. - Loss of Consciousness
19. - Examinations by General Practitioners and the Possibility of Concussion
20. - Comment on the Period of Unconsciousness and Brain Injury by a Specialist Forensic Pathologist Dr Tiemensma
21. - Possible Reasons Advanced by a Neurosurgeon for the Loss of Consciousness and the Period, Dr Du Trevou
23. - The Loss of Consciousness and the Significance of the Blood Flow Patterns
24. - Reason for the Loss of Consciousness and Period Advanced by a Neurosurgeon Dr Butler
31. The Scene of the Crime and Demeanour of the Accused
34. Visits to Medical Practitioners and the Demeanour of the Accused
36. Visits to the Family House and the Demeanour of the Accused
36. The Demeanour of the Accused in Court
37. The Weapons Used during the Commission of the Crimes:
37. - The Axe (Exhibit 1)
37. - The Place where the Axe Originated From
39. - A Second Axe and the Absence of Marli's Blood on Exhibit 1
41. - A Second Axe and the Absence of Marli's Blood on the Accused's Shorts and Socks
42. - Concessions by the Accused regarding a Second Axe
43. -Conclusion re Second Axe
44. - The Knife (Exhibit 2)
44. Motive of Alleged Intruder(s) and the Weapons Used
45. The Severity of the Attack
46. Motive to Commit the crimes
48. The Intention of the Perpetrator
50. The Injuries of the Accused
51. Possible Self-Inflicted Wounds
58. Collection of Forensic Samples and Exhibits
59. Basis on which the DNA results were challenged
68. The Relevance of the Blood Stain Patterns and the DNA Results
74. The Relevance of the Impact Marks at the Crime Scene
76. Shoe Prints at the Crime Scene
76. Fingerprints found at the Crime Scene
78. The Number of Intruders
79. Description of the Attacker(s)
80. The Accused as a Witness and his Version
81. The Accused's Version at the Scene
81. Trial Within a Trial
86. The Discrepancies between the Plea Explanation of the Accused, his Statement to the Police and his Testimony in Court
94. The Accused's Testimony regarding his Behaviour and Other Aspects during the events on the Night of the Murders
98. Conclusion

Link to Summary Judgement:-
Van Breda murder trial: summary judgment in full | Concussion | Epilepsy

Thank you Tortoise: a great summary.
You are so helpful, and such a wonderful Sleuther here, and in other cases.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Does anyone know what "trophy points" are? :weird:

I had no idea until I accidentally discovered that if you click on Trophy Points on the left of your screen you'll get a popup box which explains. Click on "All Available Trophies".

I have no idea why they've included this or Likes. Maybe it's an ego-boosting thing. If you post on numerous forums you'll obviously accumulate more of both.

 

[Tortoise]

I had no idea until I accidentally discovered that if you click on Trophy Points on the left of your screen you'll get a popup box which explains. Click on "All Available Trophies".

I have no idea why they've included this or Likes. Maybe it's an ego-boosting thing. If you post on numerous forums you'll obviously accumulate more of both.

I think of it and use it like a thanks button. The likes button that is. It's very hard to actually like most of the subject matter on this forum. As for well-known, it makes one sound a bit promiscuous

 

[Fluffykins]

I'd be beyond amazed if HvB didn't appeal. It was a very difficult case and no lawyers were prepared to say which way the verdict would go. It's "only" a question of funding, and there's a lot of money to "waste" on an appeal. After an appeal, and the conviction and sentence are upheld, any inheritance monies that would otherwise have gone to HvB will be forfeited and no doubt go to Marli.

The Summary of Judgment covered virtually every single major point that I can think of, but no doubt the full Judgment covers many more minor matters. I can't see any appeal succeeding, but of course anything is possible.

So it's all going to be rehashed again and drag on into the future?

If I were a member of that extended family, I'd be upset on Marli's behalf that her inheritance was being squandered on Henri's appeal. Because in my opinion he's had a fair trial, there was never any doubt as to his guilt, if he'd been acquitted it would have been on some technicality - and to give Piet Botha his due, much and all as I dislike the man, he clutched at every last little possible straw to try to save Henri's bacon (please forgive the mixed metaphor), but still failed to do so - so what's the point of an appeal that's doomed to fail?

But yes, I understand by law he's entitled to appeal. I fell apart laughing at your comment JJ,

"After an appeal, and the conviction and sentence are upheld ..."

Okay, well ... at least the upside from my point of view is getting to hang out with you guys some more!

 

[Fluffykins]

I had no idea until I accidentally discovered that if you click on Trophy Points on the left of your screen you'll get a popup box which explains. Click on "All Available Trophies".

I have no idea why they've included this or Likes. Maybe it's an ego-boosting thing. If you post on numerous forums you'll obviously accumulate more of both.

Ah, well, that explains it all, thanks JJ. I have my fingers crossed it will be switched off. Surely plain old "likes" is enough of that sort of thing.

 

[Fluffykins]

I think of it and use it like a thanks button. The likes button that is. It's very hard to actually like most of the subject matter on this forum. As for well-known, it makes one sound a bit promiscuous

Yo, Tortoise, that's exactly my take on the "Like" button - like you, I use it as thanks. Regardless of whether or not I agree with the member's view, I just automatically hit "like" to say thanks for going the bother of contributing to the conversation. Because if we all just sat back and waited for someone else to comment, then we wouldn't have a conversation ... and it's been the conversation universally condemning Henri van Breda that has kept me grounded while awaiting his guilty verdict and anticipating an appropriate sentence.

Roll on June 5. Judge Desai won't disappoint us.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I had no idea until I accidentally discovered that if you click on Trophy Points on the left of your screen you'll get a popup box which explains. Click on "All Available Trophies".

I have no idea why they've included this or Likes. Maybe it's an ego-boosting thing. If you post on numerous forums you'll obviously accumulate more of both.

JJ I have an absolute hatred of the 'likes' system anywhere. I see with my adult grandchildren that they feel miserable if they don't reach a certain level of likes. I have tried to explain why this must not be allowed to become important to them but I am sure they think I am nothing but a kill joy. The other problem with like is that virtually every teenager I have met uses like at least 5 times in every sentence. It (like) drives me mad. I would much prefer thank you.

 

[JudgeJudi]

JJ I have an absolute hatred of the 'likes' system anywhere. I see with my adult grandchildren that they feel miserable if they don't reach a certain level of likes. I have tried to explain why this must not be allowed to become important to them but I am sure they think I am nothing but a kill joy. The other problem with like is that virtually every teenager I have met uses like at least 5 times in every sentence. It (like) drives me mad. I would much prefer thank you.

I agree 100%. I had to laugh IB because like you, I sometimes find myself counting how many times it's in a sentence. IIRC "like" started around the time Paris Hilton and her friends were always in the news.

What annoys me even more is how the English language is misused these days even by well-educated people. Have you noticed how many people now say "excetra" (and I've even seen when they use the abbreviation ect!!!). An hilarious example is Tracey Stewart's verbal use ... and she's employed by Capetown Etc. Spelling and grammar seem to be disappearing from education systems worldwide. Spellcheck obviously can't help them because if there are several words to choose from, they haven't got a clue which one to choose.

 

[tmar]

So it's all going to be rehashed again and drag on into the future?

If I were a member of that extended family, I'd be upset on Marli's behalf that her inheritance was being squandered on Henri's appeal. Because in my opinion he's had a fair trial, there was never any doubt as to his guilt, if he'd been acquitted it would have been on some technicality - and to give Piet Botha his due, much and all as I dislike the man, he clutched at every last little possible straw to try to save Henri's bacon (please forgive the mixed metaphor), but still failed to do so - so what's the point of an appeal that's doomed to fail?

But yes, I understand by law he's entitled to appeal. I fell apart laughing at your comment JJ,



Okay, well ... at least the upside from my point of view is getting to hang out with you guys some more!

Yes, Fluffykins.
Aren't these guys a nice bunch!
"GIGGLE, GIGGLE", as no icons to express ourselves.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Is it problematic that we see women who choose to 'stand by their man' after they get convicted of a crime as illogical?

Questioning the relationship between an alleged or convicted murderer and the woman he is involved with, is nothing new. But it's usually the woman's involvement in the relationship that is seen as very problematic.

Throughout the trial, Danielle maintained HvB’s innocence, and told YOU Magazine in 2016 that he was the love of her life.

A lot of people see women who fall in love with accused killers as sad or delusional. We question why they 'stand by their man'. What they are really after. Because their decision to continue a relationship aware of the charges or convictions against their partner, doesn't seem logical or safe.

Psychology Today notes that some women either feel their love can transform the convict, have motherly empathy for the person they see as the victim, trying to save or protect the killer's 'inner innocent child' or they hope to revel in the killer’s media spotlight.

The stress of the trial has taken it's toll on Danielle and Henri, whose appearances have changed drastically since its start.



This pic shows their incredible weight loss up close. The dreadful prison food isn't going to help restore some weight any time soon.

Love in the time of murder and trials: Why do we find it difficult to stomach Danielle standing by Henri?

 

[JudgeJudi]

Part 1
After the Judgment - discussion between Tracey Stewart and Kelly Phelps

I’ve transcribed all relevant parts:

Phelps: In terms of the length of the judgment and the detail he goes into, I think it's obvious that he's trying there to avoid or forestall an appeal being successful. That essentially he's gone into so much detail with each piece of evidence and made his own reasoning so explicit in the Judgment that the inference is it becomes far more difficult for a legal team to then suggest that there was some glaring error or omission in the way that he handled or approached the evidence in the case.

Will there be an appeal:

Tracey: There was talk of them running out of money and I’m pretty sure this conviction might actually make his financial situation worse in terms of whoever is administering the estate or the trust. But there is another aspect which I think might support the fact that there will be an appeal and that is that Adv. Botha was - he really acted well for his client in this regard. I think he did his client a great service in raising those points, but do you think that Adv. Botha is perhaps going to act pro bono and file an appeal on that basis?

Phelps: Look, I think it’s quite a common occurrence that an accused person will run out of money in a lengthy trial, and equally, it’s quite common practice for the legal team to then continue representing them nonetheless pro bono. And oftentimes that’s really an ethical question that you’ve, you know, you’ve made this commitment to your client, you have such a detailed and inherent knowledge of all of the minutiae and facts of the case that it would be significantly prejudicial to the client to have to start afresh.

An added element to that in a high profile case like this as well is that you have been now associated with this case and there would perhaps be more motivation therefore to continue seeing the case through and follow it to its full logical conclusion to the point of appeal. And I have no doubt that Adv. Botha would be the same in this case. I’m sure it was a bit of a knock to him, the kind of criticism that he got, but he is a seasoned professional, and as you’ve said, he put on a very strong case in very difficult circumstances for this accused person and I have no doubt he’ll apply the most professional standards to the next stages that are to follow.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Part 2

The State has far more limited options to appeal. They can only appeal on a question of law. So in other words, suggesting that the Judge was incorrect on a question of law. They cannot appeal on the grounds of fact, that they disagree with the Judge’s evaluation of the actual facts in the case. The defence however can appeal on both grounds. So they can say either there was a problem with the law. Now in this case we haven’t really been exposed to the Judge’s legal analysis very much yet because we know that this 150 page Judgment that he read out in Court and that has been circulated is actually only the Summary of a far longer Judgment which is reported to be about 400 pages, and it’s in that longer Judgment presumably that his legal analysis will be housed because we haven’t seen that in the summary. So we don’t know if they might have a question of his legal analysis, although Judge Desai is of course an extremely experienced Judge so it would be quite unusual. The other grounds that they could appeal on is they could dispute his handling of the facts in the case. So they could say, “Look, you know, you looked at this fact but you didn’t understand the significance that it actually had in determining innocence or guilt.

Tracey: And there might be another Judge who would look at it differently and decide otherwise.

Phelps: And that’s essentially the question that needs to be answered by the Court – if another Judge looked at this, could another Judge reach another outcome. And if the answer to that question is “Yes”, then they must grant an appeal.

She then goes through the various stages of the appeal process.

Discussion continues re Desai denying bail and sending him to the hospital wing of Pollsmoor prison. Phelps thought that was a very “harsh” decision.

 

[Tortoise]

Crazy that Phelps thought it was harsh to send Henri to prison while he awaits sentencing. Harsh? More like a case of necessity if there ever was one.

 

[L2L]

PressReader.com - Connecting People Through News

Van Breda family stand by Henri "heart and soul".

 

[Tortoise]

Mindboggling really. I wonder who Andre speaks for when he says we, because his brother Bailey didn't believe Henri (according to J Jansen). And it's speaking in riddles to accept the verdict but not agree with it.

How confusing it must be for Marli to process.