South Hadley,MA Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying #2

[rsorcha]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36332885/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/

New MSNBC article about the role technology played in this case...no real new information

 

[Paladine]

TV psychologist Dr Phil McGraw has revealed that students "mimicked the hanging" of Irish schoolgirl Phoebe Prince at the high school dance in South Hadley, Massachusetts that was held only two days after her death.
The revelation is another shocking detail in a case that has seen six high school students charged with helping cause her suicide and school authorities coming under nationwide scrutiny for how they reacted to it.

Appearing on the Anderson Cooper Show on CNN, Dr Phil stated that bullying expert Barbara Coloroso had confirmed the incident which occured at the winter cotillion dance which had gone ahead despite the fact that Phoebe had been found dead just days earlier.

Dr. Phil questioned why the school authorities allowed the dance to go ahead and stated that the school authorities behaved very badly during the whole bullying episode that led to her death. "They didn't tell the truth about what they knew." he stated.

Did I say heartless?

http://www.irishcentral.com/story/n...ebe-prince-hanging-says-dr-phil-90432164.html

 

[Laurence]

Did I say heartless?

http://www.irishcentral.com/story/n...ebe-prince-hanging-says-dr-phil-90432164.html

I wonder if those little monsters were foolish enough to take (and even post) pictures of themselves doing that. It doesn't say how Barbara Coloroso confirmed the incident... I didn't watch the Dr Phil show in question, maybe she said how she knew this on air?

 

[rsorcha]

I wonder if those little monsters were foolish enough to take (and even post) pictures of themselves doing that. It doesn't say how Barbara Coloroso confirmed the incident... I didn't watch the Dr Phil show in question, maybe she said how she knew this on air?

Ugh, that just makes me absolutely sick. I really hope a lot of this information is NOT making it back to her family...

 

[Paladine]

Now, I want to see how the next meeting goes, O'Brien is calling everyone to come to the next meeting...

A friend of Phoebe Prince’s family yesterday called the South Hadley School Committee “gutless” for failing to find out why the school’s investigation into the bullying the 15-year-old endured differed so widely from the district attorney’s.

Darby O’Brien, a father of two who has spoken for the Prince family in recent weeks, said the school board should have called an emergency meeting after Northwestern District Attorney Elizabeth Scheibel announced the indictments of six students in connection with the teen’s suicide.

“Where’s the gutless school committee?” O’Brien said, urging people to attend Wednesday’s 6:30 p.m. meeting at the high school.

School Committee Chairman Edward Boiselle, who has questioned Scheibel’s findings, could not be reached for comment.

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100410family_pal_school_officials_gutless/

 

[Paladine]

I wonder if those little monsters were foolish enough to take (and even post) pictures of themselves doing that. It doesn't say how Barbara Coloroso confirmed the incident... I didn't watch the Dr Phil show in question, maybe she said how she knew this on air?

I haven't seen it yet. It's coming up again later, if I'm awake, I'll post. I did read somewhere that students had told the counsellor about the hanging incident at the dance, other students, who had found it in bad taste and heartless. If you search her name, Barbara's, there are articles in which she does describe what students had told her. It was after Phoebe died, they called her back, and she let it out in the media, specifically the hanging? I'm not sure. It may have been more vague, like they disrespected or laughed about Phoebe's death...the article explains other students were feeling disheartened. The 'bullies' were still in school and nothing had happened, Barbara said, from my recollection. Search, if you like, it's out there...

ETA: there are links on thread #1 not sure about page #...maybe after page 5...

 

[Paladine]

(WWLP) -

A high school Senior gave South Hadley school administrators a bold warning about the bullying problem almost five years ago.

22News Production Assistant and a 2006 graduate of South Hadley High School, Matt Caron made an interesting discovery. A discovery that gave him a lot to think about.

All the talk of the Phoebe Prince alleged bullying related suicide recently sparked a memory of a November 2005 editorial that he and another student had written when he was the editor of 'Spotlight', South Hadley High School's student newspaper.

"I site statistics from the Massachusetts Youth Risk Behavior Survey which show that South Hadley High School was above the state wide average in the number of students who were bullied and the number of students who had attempted suicide, so that right there should have put the administration on alert five years ago."

Even though the editorial ran almost five years ago, the South Hadley High School Senior who wrote it had a very clear message, saying he thought more stringent discipline codes needed to be put in place for the bullies, and even quoted the superintendent of the school district and the high school principal.

"I sat down with Dan Smith and he told me he did not see an increase in bullying and that it was out of his vision."

In the editorial, Superintendent Gus Sayer is also quoted reacting to the growing statistics at the time about bullying. He said about bullying---"That is something we are all concerned about, and need to think about as we go through out the year."

http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/Smith-Bullying-is,-"out-of-my-vision"

 

[Paladine]

Dr. Phil said that other students told Barbara about some students mimicking Phoebe's hanging at the dance, 2 days after her death. Not sure if anyone took a pic, it wasn't mentioned. Dr. Phil also said there are 2 choices, the adminstration is 1 of 2 things...either lying or incompetent.

 

[Natal]

We all are entitled to our viewpoints but I can't agree this was about mainly about sex. Her sexuality was the weapon they used against her, I can agree on that. But jealousy and heartless human beings are at fault, imo. Not anything Phoebe may have or may not have done. Their jealousy , insecurity and thirst for social power is what caused them to strike out...to hound her...to shame her...the problem was with them, not Phoebe. IMO

I was thinking more about how this got started. It is all very well to look at the end product of an incident but to understand it you have to look at everything. Of course Phoebe was 15 while the other girls were a few years older, and at that age a few years is an order of magnitude increase in sophistication in those sorts of issues. I think it may be a fight she started, perhaps due to her inexperience in relationship dynamics, but one where she was no match for the girls she was in conflict with. It is possible that the indicted kids were doing it for a sadistic thrill but I think it more likely the core girls were emotionally threatened at the start and then once things got going lacked the maturity to know when to stop. That is characteristic of teenagers in general. Pack mentality once their friends banded together to support them didnt help either, because instead of one person having to decide to stop the whole group had to, which is much harder. This experience may well have damaged these girls for life, it is something they may look back on with regret for the rest of their lives.

I don't think social power had anything to do with it, she just got inbetween other strong girls and their men and I think that most teenage girls somewhat older than her would understand what that means. There is a saying "All is fair in love and war", and I think she found that out the hard way.

 

[Paladine]

Phoebe's personal files sought...

"The attorney for one of six South Hadley High School students accused of bullying Phoebe Prince in the months leading up to her suicide is asking for highly personal information about her, a move decried by a former prosecutor and victims advocates as “unconscionable.”

In a six-page motion filed in Northampton Superior Court, Terrence M. Dunphy, the lawyer for Austin Renaud, asks for the names of any physicians, psychologists or rape counselors Prince saw; any medical and psychological records viewed by the prosecutor; details of any prior allegations of rape or abuse by Prince; and a statement as to whether her family had been the subject of a Department of Children and Families investigation"

"Wendy Murphy, a former prosecutor who teaches at the New England School of Law, called the move “unconscionable,” arguing that the state’s highest court has ruled that the defendant in a criminal case is not entitled to a “laundry list of everyone the victim’s ever been treated by.”

There is a “very narrow” exception, Murphy said, in which the defense has to explicitly show there is something in the alleged victim’s file that will affect the defendant’s chance of a fair trial.

“But in this case, it’s not only overly broad, it’s exceedingly premature,” she said, adding that Prince never accused anyone of statutory rape - consensual sex with a minor. “I can only see it as a threat to unveil all the family secrets.”

They also go on to say if the defense goes on to pursue it, the DA can request the same of the defendants.
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/re...inion+-+BostonHerald.com)&utm_content=Twitter

 

[jjenny]

If Phoebe never accused anyone of statutory rape, how exactly is DA intending to prove it? The girl is dead and can not testify either way.
Whatever rumors there might have been at that school, I would think that's not exactly proof.

 

[Paladine]

I was thinking more about how this got started. It is all very well to look at the end product of an incident but to understand it you have to look at everything. Of course Phoebe was 15 while the other girls were a few years older, and at that age a few years is an order of magnitude increase in sophistication in those sorts of issues. I think it may be a fight she started, perhaps due to her inexperience in relationship dynamics, but one where she was no match for the girls she was in conflict with. It is possible that the indicted kids were doing it for a sadistic thrill but I think it more likely the core girls were emotionally threatened at the start and then once things got going lacked the maturity to know when to stop. That is characteristic of teenagers in general. Pack mentality once their friends banded together to support them didnt help either, because instead of one person having to decide to stop the whole group had to, which is much harder. This experience may well have damaged these girls for life, it is something they may look back on with regret for the rest of their lives.

I don't think social power had anything to do with it, she just got inbetween other strong girls and their men and I think that most teenage girls somewhat older than her would understand what that means. There is a saying "All is fair in love and war", and I think she found that out the hard way.

I beg to differ. I feel social power motivated Ashley, it's like she really wanted to impress Kayla and Sean, imo. And maybe Sharon looking to impress Flannery. And likely many others who stood by and did nothing. They didn't want to lose theirs.

I do not believe the older girls were more sophisticated than Phoebe. To the contrary! From what I've read, they seem like untamed animals.

 

[Paladine]

If Phoebe never accused anyone of statutory rape, how exactly is DA intending to prove it? The girl is dead and can not testify either way.
Whatever rumors there might have been at that school, I would think that's not exactly proof.

Personally, I find it very hard to debate or hold a position on the rape charge, at this point. I simply have no info.

Why wouldn't the dox for Sean, Kayla and Austin be released? Do you have any idea, jjenny? Anybody?

 

[jjenny]

Personally, I find it very hard to debate or hold a position on the rape charge, at this point. I simply have no info.

Why wouldn't the dox for Sean, Kayla and Austin be released? Do you have any idea, jjenny? Anybody?

I have no idea. Could they be released later? By the way I presume it's a standard thing to do for defense to ask for the girl's information-the judge will have to decide whether defense is entitled to it or not.
I would think defense would be negligent if they did not ask for it.

 

[Paladine]

I have no idea. Could they be released later? By the way I presume it's a standard thing to do for defense to ask for the girl's information-the judge will have to decide whether defense is entitled to it or not.
I would think defense would be negligent if they did not ask for it.

Not sure about a later release but it sure would be nice to see them. Hope some media outlet gets them...can't see why not. The others were released. Maybe something to do with the court? They were in a juvenile court and the others in an adult court, do procedures differ, possibly?

And, yes, you're right, everyone deserves a defense. But it was this comment, from that link, by the law prof, that raised my eyebrows...

"“But in this case, it’s not only overly broad, it’s exceedingly premature,” she said, adding that Prince never accused anyone of statutory rape - consensual sex with a minor. “I can only see it as a threat to unveil all the family secrets"

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/re...inion+-+BostonHerald.com)&utm_content=Twitter

 

[Paladine]

I think recall reading opinion that if someone is under age of consent, their state of mind doesn't matter...because they are underage, they CAN'T consent...? I think she may be refering to the same line of thinking. So, why would Renaud's laywer need that info, if that's the case? With rape charges, that's the way I understood it was seen. Now, with the bodily harm charge against Longe, I recall reading opinion this info would be relevant. But this is Renauds lawyer...

“But in this case, it’s not only overly broad, it’s exceedingly premature,” she said, adding that Prince never accused anyone of statutory rape - consensual sex with a minor. “I can only see it as a threat to unveil all the family secrets"

same link as above...

 

[jjenny]

I think recall reading opinion that if someone is under age of consent, their state of mind doesn't matter...because they are underage, they CAN'T consent...I think she may be refering to the same line of thinking. So, why would Renaud's laywer need that info, if that's the case? With rape charges, that's the way I understood it was seen. Now, with the bodily harm charge against Longe, I recall reading opinion this info would be relevant. But this is Renauds lawyer...

same link as above...

I agree the state of mind doesn't matter in statutory rape charges because it's not forcible rape, but DA would have to prove sex took place to prove statutory rape. So how does DA intend to prove it? If she never accused anyone of statutory rape there unlikely to be physical evidence. So what is it based on? Depending on what DA intends to use as evidence I can speculate how state of mind could matter, but anyhow the judge will decide whether it's relevant information or not. I presume it is standard for defense to ask.

 

[Paladine]

I agree the state of mind doesn't matter in statutory rape charges because it's not forcible rape, but DA would have to prove sex took place to prove statutory rape. So how does DA intend to prove it? If she never accused anyone of statutory rape there unlikely to be physical evidence. So what is it based on? Depending on what DA intends to use as evidence I can speculate how state of mind could matter, but anyhow the judge will decide whether it's relevant information or not. I presume it is standard for defense to ask.

Hey, I'm green when it comes to American law but from the sound of the following quote it would seem he can ask, but who knows if he'll receive. Sounds like the bar is set pretty high...and I can't see how it would affect his right to a fair statutory rape trial...my money, he doesn't get them. I'm the gambling type...this is a big one...with my vast American legal experience.

There is a “very narrow” exception, Murphy said, in which the defense has to explicitly show there is something in the alleged victim’s file that will affect the defendant’s chance of a fair trial.

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/r...sought_attorney_wants_prince_medical_records/

 

[Muffet]

I was thinking more about how this got started. It is all very well to look at the end product of an incident but to understand it you have to look at everything.

Assuming or presenting an argument that we should (without evidence) look at Phoebe as a girl who was "using sex as a tool" while these Mean Girls were "more conservative about sex" and merely felt "emotionally threatened" does worse than nothing to further our understanding of the problem we are dealing with, IMO.

Kids break up and make up and fool around every day. The problem with this group went far beyond merely romantically wanting to remove her from competition by letting others know she was sexually active.

The problem is that this group is simply a lot of spoiled, malicious kids who took their jealousy and cruelty to an extreme to destroy another kid. (The evidence for that is everywhere, demonstrated by them before and after her death.)

I would also submit that one thing that gives kids these days the gall to act so barbarically is all the enabling by people who teach them to rationalize their behavior rather than holding themselves accountable to any standard of decency or fairness.

Of course Phoebe was 15 while the other girls were a few years older, and at that age a few years is an order of magnitude increase in sophistication in those sorts of issues. I think it may be a fight she started, perhaps due to her inexperience in relationship dynamics, but one where she was no match for the girls she was in conflict with. It is possible that the indicted kids were doing it for a sadistic thrill but I think it more likely the core girls were emotionally threatened at the start and then once things got going lacked the maturity to know when to stop. That is characteristic of teenagers in general.

I think it is more likely that they are spoiled, vicious harpies who lack moral fiber and a sense of fairness and humanity. And with all due respect, I also think it's an insult to teenagers in general to be painted as having the same characteristics as these kids. Mine don't. Nor do their friends.

Pack mentality once their friends banded together to support them didnt help either, because instead of one person having to decide to stop the whole group had to, which is much harder. This experience may well have damaged these girls for life, it is something they may look back on with regret for the rest of their lives.

I don't think social power had anything to do with it, she just got inbetween other strong girls and their men and I think that most teenage girls somewhat older than her would understand what that means. There is a saying "All is fair in love and war", and I think she found that out the hard way.

Saying this as politely as I can, and it's JMO, but it's important... IMO, the language of your post fits the very definition of blaming the victim, and it sends the very message that propagates bullies and abuses like Phoebe suffered.

Phoebe did not bring this on herself by "using sex as a tool," nor by failing to understand a rule about love and war.
First, I don't think this was about love, but about pride, malice, and hubris.
Second, even if it were about love, all is *not* actually fair in love and war.

What these girls and guys did to Phoebe was way off the charts, and attempting to rationalize their sick behavior by figuring out what Phoebe did wrong only perpetuates the "stinkin thinkin" that drove them to drive her to hang herself.

Again, just my :twocents: fwiw. I'm sure you mean well, and maybe meant things differently than they came out, but since I keep seeing similar thoughts "out there" I felt it important to answer directly.

Best,
Muffet

 

[Paladine]

could the boys dox be held back because of an underage child being involved...?