South Korea -- Plane carrying 181 crashes off runs off runway, 179 dead. 29 Dec 2024

[IceIce9]

Both black boxes stopped recording four minutes before the crash.

South Korea crash: ‘Black boxes’ from plane stopped recording about four minutes before disaster, officials say | CNN

Flight recorders from the passenger jet that crashed in South Korea last month, killing more than 170 people, stopped working minutes before the plane belly-landed and exploded on the runway, investigators said Saturday.

amp.cnn.com

Flight recorders from the passenger jet that crashed in South Korea last month, killing more than 170 people, stopped working minutes before the plane belly-landed and exploded on the runway, investigators said Saturday.

But South Korea’s transport ministry said Saturday that both the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) and flight data recorder (FDR) from the Boeing 737-800 had stopped working about four minutes before the crash.

In a statement, the ministry said it was unclear why the devices stopped recording, adding that it will work to determine the cause.

 

[mmeynstyn]

S Korea to remove concrete walls near runways after deadly crash.

MSN

 

[PrairieWind]

Both black boxes stopped recording four minutes before the crash.

South Korea crash: ‘Black boxes’ from plane stopped recording about four minutes before disaster, officials say | CNN

Flight recorders from the passenger jet that crashed in South Korea last month, killing more than 170 people, stopped working minutes before the plane belly-landed and exploded on the runway, investigators said Saturday.

amp.cnn.com

Flight recorders from the passenger jet that crashed in South Korea last month, killing more than 170 people, stopped working minutes before the plane belly-landed and exploded on the runway, investigators said Saturday.

But South Korea’s transport ministry said Saturday that both the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) and flight data recorder (FDR) from the Boeing 737-800 had stopped working about four minutes before the crash.

In a statement, the ministry said it was unclear why the devices stopped recording, adding that it will work to determine the cause.

That is interesting. Why? Did the recorders lose power? Was there no data being sent to them to be recorded?

 

[Justice101]

That is interesting. Why? Did the recorders lose power? Was there no data being sent to them to be recorded?

What I think I saw on a youtube video from an expert was that if BOTH engines were down AND the auxiliary power unit was not started up AND the main bus was pulled, there could be no power to the FDR and CVR.

It sure looks like: 1) both engines were killed from a bird strike to both, 2) both engines were killed due to one being down from a bird strike and the other accidentally being shut down, OR 3) auxiliary power unit not started in time due to no thrust and pilots too busy on flying the plane to worry about back up power.

HOWEVER, they apparently had enough power to glide the plane left and right to come down in the center of the runway.

Only thing we as the public don't know about is any conversations with the tower.

Sadly, we may never really know what happened to cause the pilots to not put the landing gear down.

if they got the gear down and had hydraulic power to operate the brakes, we would not be hear talking about it.

 

[PrairieWind]

What I think I saw on a youtube video from an expert was that if BOTH engines were down AND the auxiliary power unit was not started up AND the main bus was pulled, there could be no power to the FDR and CVR.

It sure looks like: 1) both engines were killed from a bird strike to both, 2) both engines were killed due to one being down from a bird strike and the other accidentally being shut down, OR 3) auxiliary power unit not started in time due to no thrust and pilots too busy on flying the plane to worry about back up power.

HOWEVER, they apparently had enough power to glide the plane left and right to come down in the center of the runway.

Only thing we as the public don't know about is any conversations with the tower.

Sadly, we may never really know what happened to cause the pilots to not put the landing gear down.

if they got the gear down and had hydraulic power to operate the brakes, we would not be hear talking about it.

Thanks for the reply. I hope I can get time to dive in to this more. There clearly was more going wrong than just the bird strike. The unfortunate placement of the concrete wall certainly contributed greatly to the casualties but that is of course separate from the cause of the incident.

 

[Joe Friday]

What I think I saw on a youtube video from an expert was that if BOTH engines were down AND the auxiliary power unit was not started up AND the main bus was pulled, there could be no power to the FDR and CVR.

It sure looks like: 1) both engines were killed from a bird strike to both, 2) both engines were killed due to one being down from a bird strike and the other accidentally being shut down, OR 3) auxiliary power unit not started in time due to no thrust and pilots too busy on flying the plane to worry about back up power.

HOWEVER, they apparently had enough power to glide the plane left and right to come down in the center of the runway.

Only thing we as the public don't know about is any conversations with the tower.

Sadly, we may never really know what happened to cause the pilots to not put the landing gear down.

if they got the gear down and had hydraulic power to operate the brakes, we would not be hear talking about it.

I think the bird strike caused shrapnel from the engine to cut wiring that fed power the the different systems such as the FDR and CVR and possibly even wiring that controlled the landing gear.

The landing gear is electric over hydraulic. An electrical switch in the cockpit controls the hydraulic pumps and valves that operate the landing gear. If the wiring was cut the landing gear will not function.

We know the FDR and CVR stopped working about the same time the crew called ATC to report the bird strike. It would make sense that what ever caused the black boxes to stop working was cause as a result of some damage from the bird strike.

It might be hard for investigators to know if cut wiring is what happened to cause the different failures with the condition of the plane, but I think they should be able to examine the engines to see if there is damage that would support this theory.

JMO

 

[mmeynstyn]

What I think I saw on a youtube video from an expert was that if BOTH engines were down AND the auxiliary power unit was not started up AND the main bus was pulled, there could be no power to the FDR and CVR.

It sure looks like: 1) both engines were killed from a bird strike to both, 2) both engines were killed due to one being down from a bird strike and the other accidentally being shut down, OR 3) auxiliary power unit not started in time due to no thrust and pilots too busy on flying the plane to worry about back up power.

HOWEVER, they apparently had enough power to glide the plane left and right to come down in the center of the runway.

Only thing we as the public don't know about is any conversations with the tower.

Sadly, we may never really know what happened to cause the pilots to not put the landing gear down.

if they got the gear down and had hydraulic power to operate the brakes, we would not be hear talking about it.

Sadly, even if they had the gear down and hydraulic power for brakes, it may not have prevented an accident IMO. Without the thrust reversers, the additional length of runway needed to stop the plane is significant. However, they would have had the ability to steer the plane off the side of the runway though. IMO, the investigation may reveal if this is indeed a fact as they have data that indicates how long a runway needs to be to land with both engines out, and they know the location on the runway the airplane touched down.

edited to change from"the" accident" to "an" accident.

 

[lynchmob67]

Investigators say they have found evidence of a bird strike on a passenger plane that crashed in South Korea in December, killing 179 people.
The feathers and blood stains on both engines of the Jeju Air plane were from the Baikal teal, a type of migratory duck that flies in large flocks, according to a preliminary investigation report published on Monday.

Jeju Air: Bird feathers found in engines of crashed South Korean jet - BBC News

A preliminary investigation report on December's crash that killed 179 people has been released.

www.bbc.com

 

[Justice101]

I think the bird strike caused shrapnel from the engine to cut wiring that fed power the the different systems such as the FDR and CVR and possibly even wiring that controlled the landing gear.

The landing gear is electric over hydraulic. An electrical switch in the cockpit controls the hydraulic pumps and valves that operate the landing gear. If the wiring was cut the landing gear will not function.

We know the FDR and CVR stopped working about the same time the crew called ATC to report the bird strike. It would make sense that what ever caused the black boxes to stop working was cause as a result of some damage from the bird strike.

It might be hard for investigators to know if cut wiring is what happened to cause the different failures with the condition of the plane, but I think they should be able to examine the engines to see if there is damage that would support this theory.

JMO

Is the radio system (to the tower) part of the general electrical system too?

I wonder if parts of the electrical system still worked (radio, lights, power to hydraulics, etc.). I'd really need to see an electrical system diagram to see.

Double engine out would make it easier to understand.

 

[LadyL]

Thank you!
That’s the engine that has evidence of “something wrong” on a photo, right? Could be a bird, or something else? Or do you think it, indeed, could be the R wing? A passenger texted that a bird hit a wing.
To me it looks like a big bird that got sucked through the engine. I know that Baikal teals were seen in the area. They are larger than common ducks.

Baikal teal - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I read about Boeing-800 turbofans: reliable, efficient, but with a wrong angle of the bird hitting it, what could be the worst case scenario?

Again, fully understanding that we shall not know what happened until in a year or more…

(Also, I think that after the two totally different catastrophes, AzAl and Jiju, the person who posted the graph of “the worst end of the year in aviation” has created panic and that led to overreporting. I am not subscribing to it.)

ETA: the passenger didn’t mention fire or smoke in the cabin. But of course, we don’t know what was going on in the cockpit.

you were right on the money about the bird type

 

[Justice101]

Did they mention anything in the preliminary report regarding what the plane to tower communications were?

 

[Joe Friday]

Did they mention anything in the preliminary report regarding what the plane to tower communications were?

It was reported in the preliminary report that the crew advised the tower they were going to do a Go Around. A few seconds later the crew declared an emergency for a bird strike during the Go Around.

Preliminary Report attached.

Snipped from the preliminary report:

At 08:54:43, HL8088 first communicated for landing with the air traffic control tower of Muan International Airport. The tower cleared to land on runway 01. While HL8088 was approaching the runway, the tower advised the airplane at 08:57:50 to be cautious of bird activity. Both the CVR and FDR recordings stopped at 08:58:50.

After a few seconds, at 08:58:56 (time converted from CVR waveform), HL8088 made an emergency declaration (Mayday x 3) for a bird strike during a go-around. As HL8088 was flying over the left side of the runway 01, it turned right and approached runway 19 to land on it after aligning with the runway centerline. The airplane belly-landed without its landing gear deployed, overran the runway, and crashed into the embankment, including the installed localizers, bursting into flames.

Accident Boeing 737-8AS (WL) HL8088, Sunday 29 December 2024

Jeju Air Flight 7C 2216, a Boeing 737-800 registered HL8088, was involved in an accident at Muan International Airport (MWX/RKJB), South Korea. The aircraft made a gear-up landing on runw...

asn.flightsafety.org

 

[indicolite22]

The landing gear is electric over hydraulic. An electrical switch in the cockpit controls the hydraulic pumps and valves that operate the landing gear. If the wiring was cut the landing gear will not function.

SBM. I thought the landing gear could be lowered down manually on this and similar types of aircraft? Perhaps there wasn't enough time for that. Wasn't the gear down when the plane was filmed from the ground around the time of the bird strike?

 

[iamshadow21]

Families of South Korean plane crash victims file criminal complaint

Relatives of 72 of the victims of South Korea's deadliest-ever air disaster are alleging negligence by officials in managing safety risks.

www.abc.net.au

 

[mmeynstyn]

SBM. I thought the landing gear could be lowered down manually on this and similar types of aircraft? Perhaps there wasn't enough time for that. Wasn't the gear down when the plane was filmed from the ground around the time of the bird strike?

You are correct, there is a lever in the flight deck to "manually" lower the gear via gravity. Once the gear is lowered, it could not be brought back up....but it definitely could have been lowered manually.

Not sure when during the go around the bird strike occurred but I suspect so much was happening in those final seconds that the manual lever was not pulled. I am with you also in that maybe the plane was too low to the ground...wonder how long it would have taken for the landing gear to drop using that method...would it have fully extended on-time? Not sure.

edit to change to flight deck.

 

[Dotta]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1947021305254953286

 

[Justice101]

You are correct, there is a lever in the flight deck to "manually" lower the gear via gravity. Once the gear is lowered, it could not be brought back up....but it definitely could have been lowered manually.

Not sure when during the go around the bird strike occurred but I suspect so much was happening in those final seconds that the manual lever was not pulled. I am with you also in that maybe the plane was too low to the ground...wonder how long it would have taken for the landing gear to drop using that method...would it have fully extended on-time? Not sure.

edit to change to flight deck.

it only takes about 10 seconds for landing gear to drop VIA HYDRAULICS. Manually doing, Google says longer perhaps 20 seconds and physically demanding.

With their fly by then turn and line up again.. .they theoretically had a lot of time to get the landing gear manually down.. but they were so busy with everything else they either forgot or the landing gear manual control was jammed.

 

[Justice101]

It's a shame that people won't believe the results of an investigation even when there is clear evidence.

I mean, I hate to say it, but it makes the victim's families look like they wanted Boeing to be at fault since Boeing pays out millions to victims when it is their fault. When it is just the airline, it is a fraction of a fraction.

So I was reading that the left engine switch was turned off in error instead of the right engine that had the actual bird strike.

This pilot error happens way too many times! And then they either forgot or it failed for the landing gear to be lowered. they probably could have landed safer with landing gear down and wheel brakes and one engine air break.

 

[mmeynstyn]

MSM is coming out with several articles now reporting Pilot Error...

"A source close to the South Korea-led investigation into the Jeju Air crash told Reuters that there is “clear evidence” the pilots mistakenly shut down the wrong engine after a bird strike."

"Data from the cockpit voice recorder, flight computer, and a physical engine switch found in the wreckage indicate the less-damaged left engine was shut off instead of the right, shortly before the fatal landing attempt, the source said."

Pilot error reportedly behind South Korea’s deadly Jeju Air crash