Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #3

[CoverMeCagney]

<snipped for focus>

So there’s around thirty minutes...15:31 to 16:04. unaccounted for.

Did she read all his unread messages (that she alludes to) in that time? She mentions “all the messages” she got from him the day before ...before starting out. Then references that there are more messages today she has yet to read.

I wonder which one of them initiated the video call?

Sounds like she told him she was leaving...he texted something. She answered that no, she hadn’t left she was “heading off now.”

Then maybe he made the video call about whatever might have been concerning him.

From the dossier:

22/11 – After spending the night at Cabane de la Besurtas, she returns to Pic de Sauvegarde at around 15:30. Over the next half an hour she shares WhatsApp messages with Dan and other family members.

Plus putting her bag down, having some food or drink, taking photos of the view, having a look around, planning her route etc etc.

 

[RedHaus]

Just wanted to bring the “selected messages” here...because they do sound odd to me too. Perhaps it’s because they have been “selected” and would make perfect sense if we saw the complete chain of both Dan and Esther’s communications.

snipped for focus
Thank you stmarysmead for posting the whole string of ED communication and itinerary between 21/11 and 22/11 from DC's dossier. Like others, I am going to think out loud further about this string of communication (albeit one sided only) as there appears to be some other information we might glean, IMO.

1. Ambivalence - as I mentioned last night, I read a whole lot of ambivalence into ED's 22/11 texts to DC... seemed like it was hard for her to get going from the summit. But tonight, after studying all the texts, I noticed the same theme from the 21/11 text from ED: "...Really appreciated all the msgs to get me on my way this morning".

..... was DC ED's day-to-day cheerleader? Why did ED need so much encouragement to do something she loved so much - exploring the mountains?
..... could the 22/11 16:07 DC / ED video chat been initiated by DC because he was worried daylight was running out and ED needed to get going pronto?

2. Gap in Cell Service - it dawned on me tonight DC had no communication from ED between 21/11 at 13:11 and 22/11 at 15:29 - that is nearly 26 hours. And he did not know where ED stayed the night of 21/11 until they connected on 22/11. So it seems like there was some comfort between them when there was gaps in communication.

..... what seems odd though, is there does not appear to be communication on 21/11 before ED left the summit of pic de Sauvegarde, about her plans for that night.
..... it is clear to me now if ED had aborted her 22/11 plans to stay at Refuge de Vanesque, and stayed at Cabana de la Besurtas again, she could not tell DC that night

3. Prolific Messaging - It appears DC, at least during these two days, was a prolific text messenger to ED - even when he knew she did not have cell service, or perhaps because he was worried he could not get a response from her... 21/11 - ED: "...Really appreciated all the msgs"; 22/11 - ED: "...Can’t wait to read all your messages."

..... is that normal for them or was something different during these two days that required so much one-sided communication from DC?
..... while we cannot yet know the content of DC's messages, I wonder if there was something that caused the LE officer to publicly opine about their relationship?

4. Think I Can See You - I recall a fellow WS'er in Thread #2 making quite an issue about ED saying this in the public accounting of her last known whereabouts on 22/11. She/he thought ED was referring to a third party located in France. But now I see that ED said it twice to DC - on 21/11 and on 22/11.

..... was this just a couple's cute little banter that they often did - say "Think I can see you" to imply being close when you're far apart? or does it mean something else?

5. Dip into France - I think it was CoverMeCagney up thread who threw out a new interpretation of ED suggesting she might "dip into France" on her trek. I like the new idea that what ED may have meant was possibly visiting a town or some civilization in France (despite the Covid lockdown, apparently).

.... if that could be what ED meant, could she be referring to Bagnères-de-Luchon - a commune/township and spa town (per wiki) - accessible from her loop?
Bagnères-de-Luchon - Wikipedia
.... is this where the third party idea comes into play - that ED may have been heading there to meet up with someone? perhaps a hiker she met on her travels?

That's it for tonight! No answers, just more food for thought.

 

[otto]

snipped for focus
Thank you stmarysmead for posting the whole string of ED communication and itinerary between 21/11 and 22/11 from DC's dossier. Like others, I am going to think out loud further about this string of communication (albeit one sided only) as there appears to be some other information we might glean, IMO.

1. Ambivalence - as I mentioned last night, I read a whole lot of ambivalence into ED's 22/11 texts to DC... seemed like it was hard for her to get going from the summit. But tonight, after studying all the texts, I noticed the same theme from the 21/11 text from ED: "...Really appreciated all the msgs to get me on my way this morning".

2. Gap in Cell Service - it dawned on me tonight DC had no communication from ED between 21/11 at 13:11 and 22/11 at 15:29 - that is nearly 26 hours. And he did not know where ED stayed the night of 21/11 until they connected on 22/11. So it seems like there was some comfort between them when there was gaps in communication.

<respectfully snipped>

That's it for tonight! No answers, just more food for thought.

Yes. I also wondered whether the video chat near the summit was his call to her. Seems like an awfully short conversation given that she could fully re-charge her phone 5 times during the 3 day hike.

She vanished after the Pic de Sauvegaurde conversation(s) and cannot be found by SAR. That doesn't mean she was kidnapped. It could mean that she is voluntarily missing.

The Dossier suggests that her partner is the only person she contacted on Nov 22. Is that true - is he the only person she had any contact with from the summit Sauvegarde?

I wonder whether she contacted other family members. Obviously he would have included all information about her last hours in her "dossier" (the author-less dossier).

 

[Hatty]

Yes. I also wondered whether the video chat near the summit was his call to her. Seems like an awfully short conversation given that she could fully re-charge her phone 5 times during the 3 day hike.

She vanished after the Pic de Sauvegaurde conversation(s) and cannot be found by SAR. That doesn't mean she was kidnapped. It could mean that she is voluntarily missing.

The Dossier suggests that her partner is the only person she contacted on Nov 22. Is that true - is he the only person she had any contact with from the summit Sauvegarde?

I wonder whether she contacted other family members. Obviously he would have included all information about her last hours in her "dossier" (the author-less dossier).

Yes, She did contact other family members from the Pic.

I am thinking more and more about signs she has gone voluntarily missing or - and I hate to say this - ended her life.

My thoughts are...

1. DC comments about how joyful and happy she was, and indeed she states this in her messages, along with lots of reassuring “I love you’s”. IME suicide victims often feel elated and happy just before they end their lives, because they have made a decision to end their mental pain. Families are often therefore hugely shocked and have not seen the signs.

2. ED returned to the Pic de Sauvegarde where she had already been the day before. DC says it was because she liked it and that the trip wasn’t about “peak bagging”. ED seems to have spent a good half hour talking to her family members and DC from here. Again, it was apparently the norm to regularly chat to her family and DC, but did she want to return to a beautiful place and say her goodbyes?

3. She alludes several times to not having signal and that she will message when she can. We know that had she followed the proposed route, she would have had signal the following day. Could she have been trying to stop them worrying about not hearing from her to give herself a head start before they alerted SAR?

4. One of her last comments to DC is that she hopes the refuge de Vénasque has a winter room. A) This appears to suggest a lack of planning to stay there and B) although we can’t be sure, it looks like she never arrived there. It wasn’t very far away so this would mean a very quick change of mind after telling DC her plans.

5. A big red flag for me is her post on her personal FB page on 19th October - a couple of days before she set off on her solo trip. She mentions having recently been going through a difficult time and having to do some “deep soul searching”. She mentions Alex Boye and the lyrics from his song “I’m still breathing”. She cries when out running and talks of realising she’s not alone.

On You Tube the song has the hashtag #suicideprevention.

6. SAR have been unable to locate ED in a large area around her possible routes, despite intensive searching.

So what are the conclusions?

If ED had decided to end her life, she could have gone anywhere. She could have taken any mountain route far away from the one she stated she was going on, to avoid being found. She had at least three days start before SAR were called.

I really hate even writing these thoughts because Esther seems to be the most delightful, kind, generous, happy lady and I just want to see her safely home with DC who IMO adores her and always has her happiness and very best interests at heart.

Yet, I have the feeling she is a tortured soul and battles with life and its challenges.

 

[axelcruze]

Yes, She did contact other family members from the Pic.

I am thinking more and more about signs she has gone voluntarily missing or - and I hate to say this - ended her life.

My thoughts are...

1. DC comments about how joyful and happy she was, and indeed she states this in her messages, along with lots of reassuring “I love you’s”. IME suicide victims often feel elated and happy just before they end their lives, because they have made a decision to end their mental pain. Families are often therefore hugely shocked and have not seen the signs.

2. ED returned to the Pic de Sauvegarde where she had already been the day before. DC says it was because she liked it and that the trip wasn’t about “peak bagging”. ED seems to have spent a good half hour talking to her family members and DC from here. Again, it was apparently the norm to regularly chat to her family and DC, but did she want to return to a beautiful place and say her goodbyes?

3. She alludes several times to not having signal and that she will message when she can. We know that had she followed the proposed route, she would have had signal the following day. Could she have been trying to stop them worrying about not hearing from her to give herself a head start before they alerted SAR?

4. One of her last comments to DC is that she hopes the refuge de Vénasque has a winter room. A) This appears to suggest a lack of planning to stay there and B) although we can’t be sure, it looks like she never arrived there. It wasn’t very far away so this would mean a very quick change of mind after telling DC her plans.

5. A big red flag for me is her post on her personal FB page on 19th October - a couple of days before she set off on her solo trip. She mentions having recently been going through a difficult time and having to do some “deep soul searching”. She mentions Alex Boye and the lyrics from his song “I’m still breathing”. She cries when out running and talks of realising she’s not alone.

On You Tube the song has the hashtag #suicideprevention.

6. SAR have been unable to locate ED in a large area around her possible routes, despite intensive searching.

So what are the conclusions?

If ED had decided to end her life, she could have gone anywhere. She could have taken any mountain route far away from the one she stated she was going on, to avoid being found. She had at least three days start before SAR were called.

I really hate even writing these thoughts because Esther seems to be the most delightful, kind, generous, happy lady and I just want to see her safely home with DC who IMO adores her and always has her happiness and very best interests at heart.

Yet, I have the feeling she is a tortured soul and battles with life and its challenges.

Also alluding to Brexit curtailing their adventures and freedom. She could be crying for help inside of her mind and hoping for an intervention as in voluntary disappearance or running away. If her behaviour is spontaneous and freedom loving, it's possible act on opportunities or stranger hospitality. I think the sticking point is final/current cell phone location, which the Police will know. Has it ran out of battery or been disgarded or lost. If so, why not recharged and If voluntary, surely would have used bank card or had a message to Police stating she was ok.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

The Dossier suggests that her partner is the only person she contacted on Nov 22. Is that true - is he the only person she had any contact with from the summit Sauvegarde?

I wonder whether she contacted other family members. Obviously he would have included all information about her last hours in her "dossier" (the author-less dossier).

Have you actually read the dossier? It clearly states she contacted Dan “and other family members”.

 

[axelcruze]

Have you actually read the dossier? It clearly states she contacted Dan “and other family members”.

Surely for the dossier to be reliable, we need all messages to/fro not just hand selected. If they want to publish selected information, then how can we use this. The other possibility in the dossier is the case that ED voluntarily disappeared and therefore may return , so they have to be careful in how it is worded.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Surely for the dossier to be reliable, we need all messages to/fro not just hand selected. If they want to publish selected information, then how can we use this. The other possibility in the dossier is the case that ED voluntarily disappeared and therefore may return , so they have to be careful in how it is worded.

Otto stated “the dossier suggests that her partner was the only person she contacted on 22nd”

The dossier says: “Over the next half an hour she shares WhatsApp messages with Dan and other family members.”

So I do not understand why anyone would say the exact opposite. It really feels like people are trying to cherry pick facts to make it fit their own rhetoric. It’s not helpful.

 

[stmarysmead]

Some excellent posts above...thank you..Red Haus and Hatty especially.

It does seem that DC is still the planner as she describes him on their blog. He seems to be managing her trek from the farmhouse.

In addition to the many texts he sent to ‘get her on her way’...I imagine him being concerned as she spends 30 minutes on the Pic so late in the day. I can imagine...fictionalizing only, of course, that he was texting her to get going...
‘You’d better leave NOW..it’s getting late! Text me when you next can.” (fiction)

16:04: “I’m heading off now...Maybe have signal but not sure. Sorry. I think I can see you !!!”

‘Have you left?’( fiction)

16:06: “Still in the same area. Tomorrow heading for Port de le Glere or something spelt like that. Might dip into France. Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room. Keep you posted when can xx”
“Love you ”

(And finally a short call...I am GUESSING initiated by Dan, still managing from afar.

16:07 – Video Call with Dan lasting for 1:36

For such an experienced adult trekker...supposedly doing what she loved...that seems like quite a lot of control from a partner not even on the trek with her. Maybe that was due to all of the fears she seemed constantly to express. Maybe it was a comfort to her or maybe it felt like stifling control. Did she really “appreciate all the messages to get her on her way?” Or is there something in that statement that sounds like just the opposite? Why isn’t it up to her when she wants to leave or linger?

Or had she lost her “confidence” that morning before and it took many messages from Dan to overcome some mental crisis?

Then a late arrival on the Pic the next day....

Hatty makes some very valid points about her state of mind in previous posts.

All speculation of course.

 

[Hatty]

Also alluding to Brexit curtailing their adventures and freedom. She could be crying for help inside of her mind and hoping for an intervention as in voluntary disappearance or running away. If her behaviour is spontaneous and freedom loving, it's possible act on opportunities or stranger hospitality. I think the sticking point is final/current cell phone location, which the Police will know. Has it ran out of battery or been disgarded or lost. If so, why not recharged and If voluntary, surely would have used bank card or had a message to Police stating she was ok.

According to the dossier ED was in the habit of putting her phone on airplane mode. It also states she had a 27600 mAh battery pack capable of charging her phone up to 5 times.

I’m not good on phone tech but am I right that if a phone is on airplane mode it can’t be tracked? If that’s the case, then the last cell site analysis would have put her wherever she was when she last video called DC - which we presume was at the Pic de Sauvegarde.

 

[The_Investigator]

Some excellent posts above...thank you..Red Haus and Hatty especially.

It does seem that DC is still the planner as she describes him on their blog. He seems to be managing her trek from the farmhouse.

In addition to the many texts he sent to ‘get her on her way’...I imagine him being concerned as she spends 30 minutes on the Pic so late in the day. I can imagine...fictionalizing only, of course, that he was texting her to get going...
‘You’d better leave NOW..it’s getting late! Text me when you next can.” (fiction)

16:04: “I’m heading off now...Maybe have signal but not sure. Sorry. I think I can see you !!!”

‘Have you left?’( fiction)

16:06: “Still in the same area. Tomorrow heading for Port de le Glere or something spelt like that. Might dip into France. Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room. Keep you posted when can xx”
“Love you ”

(And finally a short call...I am GUESSING initiated by Dan, still managing from afar.

16:07 – Video Call with Dan lasting for 1:36

For such an experienced adult trekker...supposedly doing what she loved...that seems like quite a lot of control from a partner not even on the trek with her. Maybe that was due to all of the fears she seemed constantly to express. Maybe it was a comfort to her or maybe it felt like stifling control. Did she really “appreciate all the messages to get her on her way?” Or is there something in that statement that sounds like just the opposite? Why isn’t it up to her when she wants to leave or linger?

Or had she lost her “confidence” that morning before and it took many messages from Dan to overcome some mental crisis?

Then a late arrival on the Pic the next day....

Hatty makes some very valid points about her state of mind in previous posts.

All speculation of course.

Excellent views, never thought of that sort of trajectory that she may have been pushed about a bit,... doesn’t explain what happened though, unless she decided to do some route completely different.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

According to the dossier ED was in the habit of putting her phone on airplane mode. It also states she had a 27600 mAh battery pack capable of charging her phone up to 5 times.

I’m not good on phone tech but am I right that if a phone is on airplane mode it can’t be tracked? If that’s the case, then the last cell site analysis would have put her wherever she was when she last video called DC - which we presume was at the Pic de Sauvegarde.

Yes, and it was actually the police who first said her phone was switched to airplane mode. The dossier confirmed it. It appears (from what we know) that the Pic de S was where her phone last pinged.

 

[Grouse]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Search for Esther Dingley: Spanish police say it's 'impossible' and all but give up - ReadSector

"The local woman called Lucia described to MailOnline how she saw a person with light brown hair lying down, not moving around or waving their hands.

But she claims she was fobbed off by the Guardia Civil who failed to send anyone to investigate.

A Guardia Civil spokeswoman told MailOnline the figure inside the camping car was a plain-clothed forensic officer – working at 10pm without protective clothing and driving an unmarked vehicle."

 

[axelcruze]

According to the dossier ED was in the habit of putting her phone on airplane mode. It also states she had a 27600 mAh battery pack capable of charging her phone up to 5 times.

I’m not good on phone tech but am I right that if a phone is on airplane mode it can’t be tracked? If that’s the case, then the last cell site analysis would have put her wherever she was when she last video called DC - which we presume was at the Pic de Sauvegarde.

The records would belong to the nearest cellphone tower to the last time the phone pinged a message from the device. So depends if sent immediate or if oos, the message would only ping when it is in radius of the phone mast. It is possible to track a device without a sim card (imei)and or without charge - according to Ed Sowden (on YouTube Joe rogan) but i understand that if battery is removed and stays removed from the device then mobile cannot give location data from the point battery was removed - i.e. last cell tower ping radius when battery was still in phone. Snowden also said that modern phones where battery cant be removed, are always traceable and always switched on regardless of airplane mode or standby.

 

[axelcruze]

According to the dossier ED was in the habit of putting her phone on airplane mode. It also states she had a 27600 mAh battery pack capable of charging her phone up to 5 times.

I’m not good on phone tech but am I right that if a phone is on airplane mode it can’t be tracked? If that’s the case, then the last cell site analysis would have put her wherever she was when she last video called DC - which we presume was at the Pic de Sauvegarde.

The records would belong to the nearest cellphone tower to the last time the phone pinged a message from the device. So depends if sent immediate or if oos, the message would only ping when it is in radius of the phone mast. It is possible to track a device without a sim card (imei)and or without charge - according to Ed Sowden (on YouTube Joe rogan) but i understand that if battery is removed and stays removed from the device then mobile cannot give location data from the point battery was removed - i.e. last cell tower ping radius when battery was still in phone. Snowden also said that modern phones where battery cant be removed, are always traceable and always switched on regardless of airplane mode or standby.

 

[stmarysmead]

A Guardia Civil spokeswoman told MailOnline the figure inside the camping car was a plain-clothed forensic officer – working at 10pm without protective clothing and driving an unmarked vehicle."

Another strange element of this case to add to the list....

If this comment is to be believed, then the local police have forensic experts who work the “graveyard shift’ and are able to collect reliable evidence in a tiny motorvan without necessity of protective clothing. Oh...and they arrive very stealthily in unmarked cars.

 

[fridaybaker]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

I've read her/his texts as reflecting what she goes on about quite often -being scared, needing to "push past fears", etc.

DC says she was accomplished , confident, and skilled in hiking, but I haven't had that impression.

The idea that he was needing to push her to leave the summit is also reflective of that in my opinion. She acknowledges that he is the planner (I think that was the verbiage). I think he was the driver as far as all things practical. She wanted to hike and explore, but needed DC's continuous encouragement and practical help. I think all of his "pushing", "helping", "directing", etc. was welcomed because it was needed.

Just my impression.

 

[patCee]

Some people who harm themselves experience a strong but calm feeling that their actions are the right thing for them, at that time.
ED clearly loved and valued DC and her wider family. She and DC had spent many years together and I imagine became intensely dependent upon each other during their 6 years travelling together.
If she resolved to harm herself she would have known the terrible trauma DC and her family would experience. For that reason, if that was her decision, I believe she would have left a note for them, maybe explaining her actions and absolving them from her decision.
Suicide has a different dimension for loved ones, even to a fatal accident, or death through illness.The van is the most logical place any note would be, at that time, and the police will have found it.

 

[Hatty]

A Guardia Civil spokeswoman told MailOnline the figure inside the camping car was a plain-clothed forensic officer – working at 10pm without protective clothing and driving an unmarked vehicle."

Another strange element of this case to add to the list....

If this comment is to be believed, then the local police have forensic experts who work the “graveyard shift’ and are able to collect reliable evidence in a tiny motorvan without necessity of protective clothing. Oh...and they arrive very stealthily in unmarked cars.

SOCO’s (scenes of crime officers) work shifts - certainly in the UK. They wouldn’t necessarily wear “protective clothing” and IME they usually rock up in an unmarked white van!

 

[stmarysmead]

SOCO’s (scenes of crime officers) work shifts - certainly in the UK. They wouldn’t necessarily wear “protective clothing” and IME they usually rock up in an unmarked white van!

I stand corrected...didn’t know they ran a night shift. That does dispel some of my disbelief. But the lack 0f protective clothing while processing a very small confined area runs the risk of cross contamination, doesn’t it?