Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #3

[otto]

Fair enough.

But reading thru his dossier, Esther is so careful, reliable, risk-adverse, predictable, and she prefers to keep in very frequent contact. She always lets them know her route.

But NOW he knows that route actually DID have good cell service. Yet no calls, texts, social media.

Either she didn’t get that far for some reason, or she was behaving quite out of her pattern and just not checking. Most of us who like frequent contact, would certainly be checking frequently to see if service improved.

So shouldn’t we assume that whatever happened, happened quickly, and in that area where she could not make contact.

Parts of the route had wifi, but the Refuge de Venasque does not have wifi.

She had no wifi as she hiked to the refuge, and she had to sign-in when she arrived. Given that she is an experienced hiker who spent the last 6 years benefitting from the refuges, she would have signed in and paid.

There's no evidence that she was at the refuge - did not sign in or pay.

That reduces the area of accident to the route down the mountain from the summit to the refuge.

 

[julie HC]

No Otto! The detailed dossier released this week specifically states that there was no signing in book at the refuge and no facility for leaving a payment. Dan stayed there for 2 nights himself during his search for Esther.

 

[otto]

No Otto! The detailed dossier released this week specifically states that there was no signing in book at the refuge and no facility for leaving a payment. Dan stayed there for 2 nights himself during his search for Esther.

The Refuge de Venasque website states that people are required to sign the attendance book and pay. The refuge website appears to be up-to-date, mentions covid rules during the Winter months and mentions the sign-in book and payment. Should we doubt this because a dossier that does not have an author contradicts the refuge website?

Accueil, Refuge de Vénasque

 

[Grouse]

Parts of the route had wifi, but the Refuge de Venasque does not have wifi.

Bit of an aside, but as wifi keeps getting mentioned I keep wondering - is it really wifi or just a mobile data mast? I know some mountains have wifi hotspots, like Everest, but in the Pyrenees? The only way I could imagine wifi being provided in a location like that is via a satellite broadband connection, and that is very expensive.

 

[Grouse]

The Refuge de Venasque website states that people are required to sign the attendance book and pay. The refuge website appears to be up-to-date, mentions covid rules during the Winter months and mentions the sign-in book and payment. Should we doubt this because a dossier that does not have an author contradicts the refuge website?

View attachment 279313

Accueil, Refuge de Vénasque

According to the dossier - "Dan stayed there himself for 2 nights while searching the area and reported that there is no sign of anybody having been there -it's a bland/bare room with eight rough bunks/mattresses, a table and no sign-in book."

 

[otto]

According to the dossier - "Dan stayed there himself for 2 nights while searching the area and reported that there is no sign of anybody having been there -it's a bland/bare room with eight rough bunks/mattresses, a table and no sign-in book."

Why does the website say there is a sign-in book and place to make a payment?

If he said there's no sign of anybody having been at the refuge, why does he focus on the trail from the refuge to Port de Glere?

 

[Recliner]

I mentioned this in thread 1 but I think it's worth re-iterating regarding the refuges.
Typically, June to September the refuges are fully functioning with a guardian, charging fees and providing meals.
Out of seasonthere is just a cabin or winter room with a sleeping platform or sometimes bunks with matresses, so you could turn up and find a few others or be totally alone.
There is a 'visitors book' but no requirement to sign in so there is no real way of knowing if someone has stayed there or not.
I don't want to bog the conversation down about tracking dogs but briefly there are many variables around the type of dog, the time delay etc to make any results inconclusive. She may have stayed at the refuge or not, I really think it's impossible to say one way or the other.

 

[Grouse]

Why does the website say there is a sign-in book and place to make a payment?

As @Recliner said maybe out of season they just don't bother? Or maybe someone could have taken the book?

 

[PeggyHenry]

An interesting thought ... someone could have taken the book. If a third party is involved in Esthers disappearance then the scene is likely to have been manipulated.

 

[RickshawFan]

The Refuge de Venasque website states that people are required to sign the attendance book and pay. The refuge website appears to be up-to-date, mentions covid rules during the Winter months and mentions the sign-in book and payment. Should we doubt this because a dossier that does not have an author contradicts the refuge website?

View attachment 279313

Accueil, Refuge de Vénasque

It was also clear there was no running water at the Refuge during the winter months as well as no wifi. This is contradicted in the dossier.

 

[patCee]

The Refuge de Venasque website states that people are required to sign the attendance book and pay. The refuge website appears to be up-to-date, mentions covid rules during the Winter months and mentions the sign-in book and payment. Should we doubt this because a dossier that does not have an author contradicts the refuge website?

View attachment 279313

Accueil, Refuge de Vénasque

You are correct Otto. The refuge is open from mid June to September. During the winter it is unmanned but is open to be used.

During unguarded periods, all FFCAM shelters keep an accessible and open part, “the winter refuge”, in order to play their role of shelter and relief.
The use of the “winter” part has been modified in order to contribute to the fight against the Covid-19 pandemic. To use this space, you must bring your sleeping bag, kitchen equipment, your masks and hand gel. Wearing a mask is compulsory, in this place and in the presence of several people, as well as respect for barrier gestures. An attendance book in the winter refuge is to be completed upon your arrival.
You will be able to enjoy the FFCAM shelters in complete safety, without forgetting to pay for your overnight stay, which is essential to maintain the services offered.

Accueil, Refuge de Vénasque

This does contradicts the description of the refuge during the winter months with "no signing in book or requirement to leave payment.", as described in the DCs Information Pack, page 12.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Why does the website say there is a sign-in book and place to make a payment?

If he said there's no sign of anybody having been at the refuge, why does he focus on the trail from the refuge to Port de Glere?

It was operating as a winter refuge. This normally means a side room is left unlocked for hikers to use. Ordinarily the whole building is open, which is presumably when the WiFi, guest book and other facilities are available.

 

[RickshawFan]

As @Recliner said maybe out of season they just don't bother? Or maybe someone could have taken the book?

The snippet shown ^^^ says sign-in and payment is required, as well as the other rules. I'm not sure there'd be a reason to think differently. It clearly refers to when there's no caretaker around (i.e. in off-season). Authorities may need this info for COVID contact tracing as well as payment tracking and pinpointing where folks are.
In season, there's likely to be a caretaker who keeps track of paperwork, maintenance, payment, etc., since it's a busy overnight spot, large tents are put up for bunkers, etc..

 

[otto]

I mentioned this in thread 1 but I think it's worth re-iterating regarding the refuges.

Typically, June to September the refuges are fully functioning with a guardian, charging fees and providing meals.

Out of season there is just a cabin or winter room with a sleeping platform or sometimes bunks with mattresses, so you could turn up and find a few others or be totally alone.

There is a 'visitors book' but no requirement to sign in so there is no real way of knowing if someone has stayed there or not.

I don't want to bog the conversation down about tracking dogs but briefly there are many variables around the type of dog, the time delay etc to make any results inconclusive. She may have stayed at the refuge or not, I really think it's impossible to say one way or the other.

Sure, but why are we rejecting information that is clearly stated on the website for the Refuge de Venasque? Is there a valid, authored link somewhere with information that clearly contradicts information that is stated on the landing page of the refuge website?

This isn't outdated information, this is Winter 2020 information.

"During unguarded [Winter] periods, all of the FFCAM shelters keep an accessible and open part, “the winter refuge”, in order to play their role of shelter and relief.

The use of the “winter” part has been modified in order to contribute to the fight against the Covid-19 pandemic. To use this space, you must bring your sleeping bag, kitchen equipment, your masks and hand gel. Wearing a mask is mandatory, in this place and in the presence of several people, as well as respect for barrier gestures. An attendance book in the winter refuge is to be completed upon your arrival.

You will be able to enjoy the FFCAM shelters in complete safety, without forgetting to pay for your overnight stay, which is essential to maintain the services offered.."
​

Accueil, Refuge de Vénasque

 

[otto]

As @Recliner said maybe out of season they just don't bother? Or maybe someone could have taken the book?

The website states that sign-in and payment is required during the Winter 2020 season.

 

[otto]

It was also clear there was no running water at the Refuge during the winter months as well as no wifi. This is contradicted in the dossier.

What should we believe? The official website of the refuge, or a document that has no author?

 

[Grouse]

The snippet shown ^^^ says sign-in and payment is required, as well as the other rules. I'm not sure there'd be a reason to think differently. It clearly refers to when there's no caretaker around (i.e. in off-season). Authorities may need this info for COVID contact tracing as well as payment tracking and pinpointing where folks are.
In season, there's likely to be a caretaker who keeps track of paperwork, maintenance, payment, etc., since it's a busy overnight spot, large tents are put up for bunkers, etc..

The website states that sign-in and payment is required during the Winter 2020 season.

I dunno, I see no reason to doubt what DC said based on his visit. Off season, and during lockdown I doubt they'd be worrying about payments and sign-ins etc. I think a lot of protocol will have gone out the window at this time.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

What should we believe? The official website of the refuge, or a document that has no author?

Why would he lie? It would be immediately verifiable by police. I doubt he was the first on the scene, SAR would have checked the refuge for signs before they did anything else.

 

[otto]

I dunno, I see no reason to doubt what DC said based on his visit. Off season, and during lockdown I doubt they'd be worrying about payments and sign-ins etc.

The refuge does expect people to sign in and make a payment during off season, and instructions are provided to reduce transmission of the virus during visits. We don't know who authored the document that mentions Dan several times.

 

[otto]

Why would he lie? It would be immediately verifiable by police. I doubt he was the first on the scene, SAR would have checked the refuge for signs before they did anything else.

Perhaps investigators or SAR collected the sign-in book as evidence that she did not sign-in, and therefore did not arrive at the refuge.