Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #4

[Onlinesleuth]

From the BBC interview which was fairly recent (ie while they were apart during ED's solo trip) Van life: Durham couple's six years on the road (and counting)

"We've got the best of both worlds, really," Esther says. "We get a home bug and a travel bug. Travelling takes you to some beautiful places but it feels a bit unsettled at times, so then we house-sit somewhere to get a bit of stability." BBM

Still, despite the occasional house-sitting job, when you factor in the cost of vehicle repairs, taxes, insurance and all the other hidden costs, plus the care of 5 dogs, it’s an expensive lifestyle.

 

[stmarysmead]

Still, despite the occasional house-sitting job, when you factor in the cost of vehicle repairs, taxes, insurance and all the other hidden costs, plus the care of 5 dogs, it’s an expensive lifestyle.

‘And, even after three months away, according to the dossier...Esther was only able to have the “home bug” for about two weeks. ( the previous 2 weeks they were traveling in the van.)

Edited for correction....Esther only had the home bug for 8 days. They arrived 14/10...she left 22/10. They had spent 10 days previously traveling in the van.

 

[ZaZara]

Was there an “original plan to rehome the dogs?” I’ve missed that. Could you supply the link so I can read more about it?

When did they make this plan? They certainly have had at least 5 of them together for quite awhile. Interestingly, on a Nov FB post Esther suggests the dog books would be helpful for foster children to deal with “abandonment’ issues. “Lovely Leela finds a family.”...is the title of the book.

Esther writes that the book ‘deals with abandonment issues and not just of dogs” and says a reader suggested the books would be helpful for foster children. I suppose giving hope of finding a loving family.

And yet in reality the dogs themselves have all been given away!!! I hope n0ne of the children would ask where the puppies are now....

It is all on the blog, but I find the blog difficult to navigate. There is more about them wanting to rehome the puppies from the beginning, and then somehow not coming round to do that because they love them so much.

This one dates from before the pups were born and is about the considerations that immediately came up:

I could also make a whole list of all the personal practical challenges and costs we could anticipate if all 6 (or 7) puppies came to term. Passports, vaccinations, potty training, transport, finding good, loving homes, renting accommodation that would allow them.....the list went on and on.

Btw the vet had offered them the option to terminate the unborn pups, and given them one afternoon to think about that.

As the afternoon passed and the more I contemplated the world we live in, where so many animals are treated as profit making commodities provided with essential nutrients but with no recognition for their suffering, the more the thought of placing 6 fully formed, viable puppies on a counter to slowly suffocate (the vet had told me it would take about 5 minutes) hurt me. Isn't that I would be doing to Leela treating her as a 'thing'. I wanted a cute dog to fuss and I was prepared to cut out her pups close to term in a risky surgery, probably screw up her hormones as well, to avoid extra hassle. Was my argument about 'social responsibility' really just a smokescreen for avoiding personal inconveniences? I was beginning to feel that's exactly what I was doing.

Update....We've Adopted A 'Pregnant' Stray Dog In Spain!?! | Esther & Dan - Adventuring Together - Life, Love, Health & Travel

There are more posts about rehoming, but the lower part of my screen is blocked by a huge notice in black that I cannot remove.

 

[Onlinesleuth]

Just filling in some blanks about this couple as we assess this case. I thought perhaps because they chose to be in the high mountains that there was some legal exemption. But yet, if they were disregarding laws that were affecting everyone else, they still posted about it quite openly on FB.

Interesting....supports, in a way, your post that they were risk-takers.

Perhaps they didn’t have to concern themselves as they went in and out of countries during their long hiking trip earlier in the year, but that doesn’t absolve ED of rule/law breaking when she went off on her own October/November. That’s before you take into consideration the risks she was taking on her own in a very forbidding natural environment. Perhaps the authorities are going over every detail with a fine tooth comb but you could hardly blame them for thinking that ED was extremely foolhardy. There are all sorts of warnings of penalties if you go hiking/climbing in bad weather - never mind the risk to those in SAR.

 

[Grouse]

Still, despite the occasional house-sitting job, when you factor in the cost of vehicle repairs, taxes, insurance and all the other hidden costs, plus the care of 5 dogs, it’s an expensive lifestyle.

Is it particularly expensive compared to a more conventional lifestyle? I can't comment from experience as I've never lived like that, but most of us have to factor in the costs of running a vehicle. I have no dogs, but I have an 18 year old cat who still thinks he's 5, and keeps getting into fights so I have regular vet bills.

I don't doubt they had to be careful with money, but they are renting out a property as well as using savings and income from house-sitting. In a post up thread @Hatty said "I have travelling friends who end up with money left over every month from renting their home out!" Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #3

 

[Onlinesleuth]

Is it particularly expensive compared to a more conventional lifestyle? I can't comment from experience as I've never lived like that, but most of us have to factor in the costs of running a vehicle. I have no dogs, but I have an 18 year old cat who still thinks he's 5, and keeps getting into fights so I have regular vet bills.

I don't doubt they had to be careful with money, but they are renting out a property as well as using savings and income from house-sitting. In a post up thread @Hatty said "I have travelling friends who end up with money left over every month from renting their home out!" Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #3

Probably not more expensive in comparison to a conventional lifestyle, but definitely equal to.

 

[ZaZara]

On the subject of ED and her enquiry in the supermarket re the price of chia seeds... I don’t know how many people on this forum have lived in France, but even the very basics can be exorbitantly expensive ie health foods, toiletries, skincare can be 3 or 4 times the price of similar in the UK. It’s astonishing. Pet care is similarly more expensive than one would expect... everything from vet appointments through to dog food. So, while living in a campervan sounds like a budget-efficient option, the only costs saved are on accommodation. Fuel is expensive, hiking equipment is expensive, food is expensive... their expenses in total probably equalled what they would have spent at home inc the mortgage. I’m talking from experience, btw. The couple had a tendency to ‘wing it’ as well, which they mentioned in their own posts... hiking alone in late November in high mountain territory where there are bears, packs of wolves, poisonous snakes, armed hunters (many accounts of dramatic ‘near misses’ in the Pyrenees recently, just google it), the threat of snow storms... to me this all seems foolhardy, bordering on insanity. Add to that, hitchhiking as a lone female... a disaster waiting to happen IMHO.

Hi, could you please add price comparisons for your claims?

AFAIK Fuel for their diesel van is 10 cents cheaper in France, and 25 cents cheaper in Spain than in the UK, stand middle of January 2021.

Fuel prices in Europe in January 2021

Food prices are higher in France than in the UK, but Spain is much cheaper than the UK (impact of Brexit not calculated yet)

Food prices in Europe rising at ‘rapid rate’: Where are the most expensive countries to eat?

 

[stmarysmead]

Perhaps they didn’t have to concern themselves as they went in and out of countries during their long hiking trip earlier in the year, but that doesn’t absolve ED of rule/law breaking when she went off on her own October/November. That’s before you take into consideration the risks she was taking on her own in a very forbidding natural environment. Perhaps the authorities are going over every detail with a fine tooth comb but you could hardly blame them for thinking that ED was extremely foolhardy. There are all sorts of warnings of penalties if you go hiking/climbing in bad weather - never mind the risk to those in SAR.

For those of us who have felt a moral obligation to follow lockdown law, because we feel a broader communal responsibility for others as well as ourselves, I don’t see that same obligation as part of this couples worldview. But interestingly, they are so overtly charming, that even the BBC interview just regaled their adventures without the context of the lockdown.

I guess there was little worry that they’d be caught and fined, so to them they saw no broader issue beyond themselves.
On another point, they adopted Leela in 2017. The puppies came just weeks after.

 

[Grouse]

Yes - we all like to travel and explore BUT we all have to live by the law during lockdown. In Paris the curfew is 6pm to 6am, for example - and everyone adheres to it. ED had the benefit that many others don’t ie living rent free in a cottage in the countryside where she could get outside to exercise. IMO, going off on her own without basic planning and knowledge of the environment, taking major risks every day that have already been written about on this forum, comes across as either a) foolhardy/selfish in the name of her own pleasure OR b) desperate to get away from her partner. What other reasons could there be?

BBM - could it simply be this? --> "We realised that during the coronavirus we had not been apart from each other for a year so decided to each just do our own thing for a bit. This whole thing has been really good for us individually and our relationship; we are genuinely happy now." - again from the BBC article, quote from ED.

Foolhardy or otherwise surely the only thing that matters now is finding her?

 

[Onlinesleuth]

Probably not more expensive in comparison to a conventional lifestyle, but definitely equal to.

On the same subject, is their property still rented out? I know that a lot of people moved when lockdown was first announced. Even if it is still rented out and they are getting income from that, say the rental income is £1,500. After the mortgage is paid, exactly how much is left over each month? Then as the owners they still have to pay all the maintenance costs/general upkeep. Another point, if their home is rented out, where were they planning on living when they returned?

Re sources of revenue: The income from most book sales is a pittance, so don’t be swayed by that.

I’m sure this couple were in financial difficulty - can lead to avoidance, escapism, arguments, ill health. No wonder ED indicated she was depressed/scared/worried/concerned.

 

[Onlinesleuth]

For those of us who have felt a moral obligation to follow lockdown law, because we feel a broader communal responsibility for others as well as ourselves, I don’t see that same obligation as part of this couples worldview. But interestingly, they are so overtly charming, that even the BBC interview just regaled their adventures without the context of the lockdown.

I guess there was little worry that they’d be caught and fined, so to them they saw no broader issue beyond themselves.
On another point, they adopted Leela in 2017. The puppies came just weeks after.

Laws are put in place for a reason - the patrols who have to look for missing hikers/climbers shouldn’t have to be exposed to further pressures: ie the chance of catching covid. It’s selfish to expect otherwise.

The fact the press didn’t make an issue of the fact they were breaking lockdown is irrelevant as they were after a ‘feel good’ story, not conducting a criminal investigation.

Three years of looking after that many dogs, and in a camper-van, while having to find alternative accommodation for them when they went hiking, must have taken it’s toll.

 

[Grouse]

On the same subject, is their property still rented out?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record about the BBC article ... Van life: Durham couple's six years on the road (and counting)

Re sources of revenue: The income from most book sales is a pittance, so don’t be swayed by that.

I'm not being swayed by anything. I see where you are coming from but from what I've seen and read I don't get the impression they were struggling financially, and equally I get the impression neither is materialistic enough for money to be a major source of conflict. "He takes me to the best restaurants" as she said, eating a simple meal on a mountain.

 

[Onlinesleuth]

BBM - could it simply be this? --> "We realised that during the coronavirus we had not been apart from each other for a year so decided to each just do our own thing for a bit. This whole thing has been really good for us individually and our relationship; we are genuinely happy now." - again from the BBC article, quote from ED.

Foolhardy or otherwise surely the only thing that matters now is finding her?

Absolutely - but if the only thing that impacted her disappearance was that she liked time apart then this longgggg ‘sleuth’ thread would have already come to an abrupt halt. Everyone wants ED to be found, but for that to happen the reasons she can’t be found have to be looked into. Take into consideration her partner’s denials of any relationship issues, plus the search being expanded to a formal ‘criminal investigation’, mean that all avenues need to be explored. One of the first avenues to investigate is always the cause for any disharmony ie another person involved or financial worries. If the authorities just said ‘all that matters is finding her’ without doing the actual enquiries to actually locate her then that would be negligent and probably provoke an international outcry.

 

[Onlinesleuth]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record about the BBC article ... Van life: Durham couple's six years on the road (and counting)


As of now, is their property still rented out and making a profit?


I'm not being swayed by anything. I see where you are coming from but from what I've seen and read I don't get the impression they were struggling financially, and equally I get the impression neither is materialistic enough for money to be a major source of conflict. "He takes me to the best restaurants" as she said, eating a simple meal on a mountain.

I think ED was joking about ‘the best restaurants’ as it was clearly the most basic meal imaginable, although the view was spectacular.

Unless I’m missing something, IMO they WERE struggling financially, and very much so. Having living accommodation for free while house-sitting doesn’t produce any income, publishing books creates very little income, renting out a property while still having to pay a mortgage and bills produces negligible income.

 

[Grouse]

I think ED was joking about ‘the best restaurants’ as it was clearly the most basic meal imaginable, although the view was spectacular.

It's open to interpretation and mine is that she didn't give a stuff about fancy restaurants and she valued what she was doing more.

Unless I’m missing something, IMO they WERE struggling financially, and very much so.

IMO I don't know what their financial situation was.

Anyway let's agree to differ on our approaches to this

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I can’t decide whether some of you are jealous, or just horribly judgemental about this couple that you’ve never met.

There are a LOT of baseless assumptions - mainly negative - about their lifestyle, mental health, physical strength, financial situation, living conditions, devotion to pets, commitment to each other, risk taking, rule breaking, preparedness, nutrition, language, spelling, map skills, moral code, and the list goes on.

Ask yourself if you’d say all this to Dan or Esthers parents. If you wouldn’t, then you shouldn’t be saying it here.

 

[Onlinesleuth]

It's open to interpretation and mine is that she didn't give a stuff about fancy restaurants and she valued what she was doing more.



IMO I don't know what their financial situation was.

Anyway let's agree to differ on our approaches to this

Thanks I think everyone on the forum is free to put forward their theories - that’s what being a ‘sleuth’ is all about and is what makes this platform interesting. I’m not wildly speculating about the couple having financial difficulties - I know first hand the cost of living in France, I believe that house-sitting doesn’t produce an income as it’s offered unpaid in return for the accommodation, I know that self published books rarely make any money, I’m aware that renting out a property to pay the mortgage rarely makes a profit after costs are taken into consideration. When additional unexpected lifestyle expenses above the norm are taken into account, like having to pay for dental treatment, dog sickness or having to pay for travel to the UK for any reason, these costs add up MASSIVELY. Also, ED apparently had little food, had queried the cost of one purchase... If you were to produce a factual breakdown of Income/Expenditure related to this couple’s lifestyle then the document would most probably show they were in severe dire straits.

 

[Onlinesleuth]

I can’t decide whether some of you are jealous, or just horribly judgemental about this couple that you’ve been er met.

There are a LOT of baseless assumptions - mainly negative - about their lifestyle, mental health, physical strength, financial situation, living conditions, devotion to pets, commitment to each other, risk taking, rule breaking, preparedness, nutrition, language, spelling, map skills, moral code, and the list goes on.

Ask yourself if you’d say all this to Dan or Esthers parents. If you wouldn’t, then you shouldn’t be saying it here.

That’s for this site’s admin to decide. The whole platform is open to theories because that’s it’s function. It’s well known that detectives trawl these forums looking for clues and for details to come to light via the public and/or friends that they don’t already know about. This also serves as a warning to others - ie to think ahead when adopting stray dogs, to adhere to lockdown rules and the laws of a country when travelling, to have a steady income stream when considering living abroad, to leave a relationship if it’s no longer satisfying, to seek professional help if depressed, not to hitchhike alone (particularly as a single woman), to have a whistle immediately to hand, always to have sufficient water to hand, to always have a GPS to hand, to stay in daily contact with someone at base, never to change plan, not to be in the mountains during winter months, to research in advance and never go into territory where there are bears and wolves, even as a couple. The warnings from this story are endless IMO and all of them extremely valuable for anyone here considering following in this couple’s footsteps.

 

[RickshawFan]

Is it particularly expensive compared to a more conventional lifestyle? I can't comment from experience as I've never lived like that, but most of us have to factor in the costs of running a vehicle. I have no dogs, but I have an 18 year old cat who still thinks he's 5, and keeps getting into fights so I have regular vet bills.

I don't doubt they had to be careful with money, but they are renting out a property as well as using savings and income from house-sitting. In a post up thread @Hatty said "I have travelling friends who end up with money left over every month from renting their home out!" Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #3

I can't speak for the EU, but I did live in a Honda for a loooooong time in the US. I kept thinking it would be cheaper because I wouldn't have to pay rent. I'm even eligible for 1/2 price camp spots in federal campgrounds (there are quite literally thousands of campgrounds in this category). Sometimes, I was spending only $4 per night.
However, there are hidden costs you don't think of. For instance, when I added up the $$ for having a tiny cooler for milk, bacon, eggs, and blueberries, @$2 per day for ice, that's $60 a month. Since I didn't have a way to store homemade casseroles and soups, my main meals ended up costing more than they would at home. Laundromats started to add up: $10 per week would be $40 per month.
Cooking fuel costs more than you might imagine, and then fuel is needed to run the lantern.
The toilet might be quite a walk, and if you're in a cheap space, it's likely to be a privy (although these are sometimes better than flush-toilets). You have to buy drinking water, since there's no way to tell if public water is actually potable.
The car needs oil change, maintenance, and new tires to accommodate the extra miles. Driving all those extra miles increases the costs of insurance.
There is specialized equipment. I had this already, but it really adds up: a rain canopy for the picnic table, guy ropes, clothes pins, stove, dish basin, headlamps, batteries, lanterns, sleeping bag....
Federal campgrounds generally don't have wifi, so you have to figure out how to address those needs. How do you entertain yourself? You can buy books. Or you can borrow them from a nearby library, for which you'll need to pay for a card since you're not local. Or—my method—get a library card for the sole purpose of downloading public library books, and since you can only take out 3 at a time (not close to enough for me), you might have to have 2....

Then you need a resettlement kitty for when you have to return to your mundane reality.

God forbid you need healthcare because you tripped on a root in the middle of the night on a nature call.

See what I mean about stuff adding up? True, I've given you US expenses, but my point is that things that don't cost money at home, can cost a lot on the road, and there are many, many, many hidden expenses.

Doing all this in the EU? I can't even imagine being able to afford it. I find the EU very expensive.

And, I'm sorry, but chia seeds would never have fit in my budget.

******
PS I highly recommend cooking blueberry pancakes, eggs, and bacon on a picnic table at an interstate rest area, just to see people's faces when they see and sniff the whole layout.

 

[RedHaus]

Going from memory - I think they adopted a stray who then had puppies, so they ended up with 5 dogs.

Actually, otto, the stray dog they found / adopted, Leela, had six puppies. There is one pic of the puppy pile with all six. But most pics are with the four puppies they 'kept'. Two puppies were adopted out early on, one to a French lady, who DC and ED had visited - not sure how many times. So they had seven dogs at one point.