Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #4

[otto]

Can anyone remind me how close to the trailhead was her "asking for fruit" encounter? I seem to be thinking the others were almost down off the trail, meaning ED would have been freshly setting out. Or was it actually higher up that they passed each other? Thanks.

Her hike started on Nov 21 at the Hospice de Benasque. She spent the night alone at a Cabana la Basurtas. She was one hour from the summit on Nov 22 when she met two hikers and asked for fruit.

 

[Grouse]

Snipped for focus

The "next girl" might even be someone on this board. If our posts have kept even one person safe, we will have done a good job despite the detours.

If someone needs saving from protein malnutrition or from the perils of begging food from strangers you may be right.

 

[Grouse]

Asking for food was probably just a way of bonding. Highly sociable people are often quite naive about the way they come across. I would be interested to know the exactly how that conversation went, but in context, the request was probably quite harmless and certainly not significant to the case.

Indeed, that was my point but it seems to have disproportionately upset a few people who seem to see it as begging.

 

[Grouse]

The quote was from the second year on the road, though, not last year. So, I'm wondering what evolved from the commitment to "giving back" during the 3rd year. 4th? 5th?

I struggle to see how this is relevant in sleuthing the case. Do we know how much "giving back" they did? Does it matter?

 

[PeggyHenry]

What exactly is relevant in this case? I’m starting to get a headache when wondering what could’ve played a part in her disappearance. Off the top of my head this morning:

Suicide Case:

Emotional state e. Mental well-being

Death by Physical deterioration:

(unlikely as would have been found unless had wandered off track)

nutrition
Disease
Heart failure etc

Accident:
( unlikely as would have been found unless had wandered off track)

Physical state including nutrition
Equipment failure
Weather
Terrain
Tiredness

3rd party:

Predators animal and human
Enemies
Crime de passion


ETA there are no traces of Esther so whatever caused her disappearance removed every trace of her, at least from where she was expected to have been hiking.

 

[PeggyHenry]

Having sat here thinking l about what may have caused her disappearance, again I feel it is important to know where she was. Was she where she was ‘supposed’ to be? Or somewhere quite different. We know she last made contact via mobile at the Pic at around 4 pm. She then went off radar and to our knowledge has not been seen again.? Along with her ‘gear’. It went dark around an hour after the Pic so one assumes she bedded down somewhere unless something already happened to her. In my view, something happened within an hour or so if the pic. JMO
Yes I know there’s nothing new in my thoughts but I’m trying to get my brain to go right back to basics!

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Do we really need to cover the food issue yet again? We have no idea what was in her bag, and her request could have been nothing but a very casual ice-breaker. Some posters here managed to turn that into “poor starving Esther was so unprepared and malnourished she was begging”.

I think it was all in thread #2 so people can go back to read it again if they wish.

 

[Ninja Bunny]

I’m not an expert hiker, but I have done some hiking. If I were going to make small talk with another hiker I wouldn’t ask them for food, it strikes me as weird and awkward and an unnecessary imposition. If a stranger asked me for food and it wasn’t an emergency, I’d say no and move away from that person.

Her asking for food while going up late in the day, particularly after arguing over the price of chia seeds, is a red flag to me. It indicates to me that something was already wrong before she disappeared.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

I’m not an expert hiker, but I have done some hiking. If I were going to make small talk with another hiker I wouldn’t ask them for food, it strikes me as weird and awkward and an unnecessary imposition. If a stranger asked me for food and it wasn’t an emergency, I’d say no and move away from that person.

Her asking for food while going up late in the day, particularly after arguing over the price of chia seeds, is a red flag to me. It indicates to me that something was already wrong before she disappeared.

Loads of discussion around this in thread #2 if you're interested. It's one of those circular debates that crop up in cases.

 

[wary]

I don't believe the food issue has anything to do with it. She was only a couple of hours from civilisation in either direction - and all downhill - and she was physically very fit. I always find that once I start off down a mountain I'm back down before I know it. Anyway, you can go for days without food if you have to.

Asking for food was probably just a way of bonding. Highly sociable people are often quite naive about the way they come across. I would be interested to know the exactly how that conversation went, but in context, the request was probably quite harmless and certainly not significant to the case.

I certainly appreciate someone trying to bond. But I wonder if she ever considered offering food as a way of bonding.

 

[Grouse]

Well, first we don’t know...if Esther needs saving. This may be a voluntary disappearance and she is alive and well. In those discussions, sympathies may lie more with Dan and her family. But we are still allowed to try to understand...should that be the case...her motivations. We may look at the “clues” from a different perspective. But other sleuthers, are free to counter with other interpretations, That kind of response is really more powerful than just disapproval with no factual rebuttal.

But back to Save The Next Girl...because of Esther’s own posts and numerous odd actions, sadly, this could be a suicide. The discussions about her emotional state,the clues we see, could help someone reading here...see those signs in someone they know and take preventative action. Save the next girl.

We have had some expert testimony about nutrition, thirst, time of day, weather conditions, clothing, hitching... Any and all could help.The Next Girl from not making the same mistakes.

Hope you at least see my point even if you disagree.

I do see your point. There has been some excellent general advice on hiking and nutrition and if that helps someone on here then that's fantastic. I have picked up some helpful ideas myself (for example it has led me to check and discover that the whistle that I thought was attached to my rucsac has fallen off, and that I need to get another - so that may save the next guy). My point is that personally I don't see how a lot of it helps us with sleuthing the case. But if people enjoy sharing it, and it is part of the mission of this site and not regarded as off-topic by the admins, then I applaud it and will look forward to reading more.

Regarding the rights and wrongs of certain behaviour of ED/DC, I may have my own private views (though they are in the main positive ones TBH), and I can see how some of it relates to the case, in things like preparedness etc. But I can't see how opinions about whether this asking for food is right or wrong really helps our cause. I may be wrong. My opinion only.

 

[stmarysmead]

Do we really need to cover the food issue yet again? We have no idea what was in her bag, and her request could have been nothing but a very casual ice-breaker. Some posters here managed to turn that into “poor starving Esther was so unprepared and malnourished she was begging”.

I think it was all in thread #2 so people can go back to read it again if they wish.

In fairness, the food discussion has been revised a few times because of new information that addressed the issue. We discussed it once because experts were kind enough to explain in detail the effects of thirst, hunger, even chia seeds.

‘It came up again when a “witness”who hiked with Esther gave an interview. In HER opinion, Esther’s scarcity of food, and need to “borrow” struck her as unusual and worthy of pointing out to investigators.

Likewise, as we go thru quite a bit of online posting, blogs, comments, etc, we see a pattern of Esther seeking help from others....seemingly because she is unprepared. The “Lost on the Bike Ride” video is a prime example. That amplifies the food borrowing issue...because we are discussing a brilliant woman with multiple degrees from a world renowned university...seemingly approaching strangers routinely because she needs...something.

IMO, the idea that this is an icebreaker is very valid. I don’t think any one wants to shut down alternative explanations. A debate pushes all of us to think more deeply and those who just read here at WS certainly must appreciate well articulated counter views. Anyway, I do. So bring on the pushback unless it’s like our visitor yesterday. I don’t take it personally.

But, one more point, to be unprepared, as the interview with the hiking friend indicated, does put Esther at risk that she might someday be caught out with no one to help. Perhaps this happened on this last day.

 

[stmarysmead]

I do see your point. There has been some excellent general advice on hiking and nutrition and if that helps someone on here then that's fantastic. I have picked up some helpful ideas myself (for example it has led me to check and discover that the whistle that I thought was attached to my rucsac has fallen off, and that I need to get another - so that may save the next guy). My point is that personally I don't see how a lot of it helps us with sleuthing the case. But if people enjoy sharing it, and it is part of the mission of this site and not regarded as off-topic by the admins, then I applaud it and will look forward to reading more.

Regarding the rights and wrongs of certain behaviour of ED/DC, I may have my own private views (though they are in the main positive ones TBH), and I can see how some of it relates to the case, in things like preparedness etc. But I can't see how opinions about whether this asking for food is right or wrong really helps our cause. I may be wrong. My opinion only.

I truly appreciate this post, as I do so many of your posts. If you knew me in real life, I love a good debate and I love being challenged especially by smart articulate people like yourself and the others here joining our conversation. Especially at this time of lockdown, I appreciate having some mental stimulation, having my opinions challenged...so that I am FORCED to think.
And, in the end, I don’t always even agree with myself. LOL...but I enjoy the process of finding that out.

 

[Grouse]

I truly appreciate this post, as I do so many of your posts. If you knew me in real life, I love a good debate and I love being challenged especially by smart articulate people like yourself and the others here joining our conversation. Especially at this time of lockdown, I appreciate having some mental stimulation, having my opinions challenged...so that I am FORCED to think.
And, in the end, I don’t always even agree with myself. LOL...but I enjoy the process of finding that out.

Thank you, and likewise.

Mental stimulation in lockdown is a big part of it for me too. That and, to be honest, I was just totally taken with the original BBC article, and I had already started reading their website before ED went missing, and before I even knew Websleuths existed. A part of me (just a part) was slightly jealous of their lifestyle, so for that reason it's possible I may be guilty of being over sensitive at times to seeing it criticised.

 

[Grouse]

<snipped by me>
In fairness, the food discussion has been revised a few times because of new information that addressed the issue. We discussed it once because experts were kind enough to explain in detail the effects of thirst, hunger, even chia seeds.

My view on that is that the rations ED took on that trip with the other girl seemed totally inadequate, but I just kept thinking that with all the hiking and climbing she has accomplished she must be doing OK on that sort of food. However I am now coming round to wondering that, if she was upset about something, she might not have been eating properly later on in the trip. If that was the case I don't know how she managed to climb that peak and look so fresh in the photos. The star jumps she often does don't look like someone who is low on energy.

 

[ZaZara]

Interesting. I might be getting forum fatigue now, but I can't seem to find anything on Francoise Dasnois on WS other than references in this thread. Is it still available?

Françoise Dasnois does not have a thread on WS.
Her name came up on a list of people still missing in the area as of now.
There is some info about her in MSM, but most of it is behind a paywall.
The best source of general information is perhaps the book that her husband wrote about her disappearance. The book is in French.

Françoise Dasnois disappeared in 2009 on a trail called la ruta del Portal de la Cunarda, in the Sierra de Guara. More info about this trail here:
Portal de La Cunarda | Excursiones por Huesca

From a certain point on, the trail is circular. Twice. It is not known at what point Françoise Dasnois either returned to the village, or waited for her family to hike the first or second circular part. The terrain starts very simple, with a road from the village and wide paths through the fields and low bushes. This changes further on, the canyon is very steep. The landscape is nothing like the area where Esther disappeared.

If you want to start a thread, do so by all means, but sources are hard to come by and basic info like the point where she was last seen is not open on the internet. IMO unles you read the book, there is little to sleuth.

 

[Grouse]

<snipped for focus>
If you want to start a thread, do so by all means, but sources are hard to come by and basic info like the point where she was last seen is not open on the internet. IMO unles you read the book, there is little to sleuth.

That's great, thanks for that. I can get by in French but a whole book would be too much I think. I will try some more research on it though.

 

[RickshawFan]

If someone needs saving from protein malnutrition or from the perils of begging food from strangers you may be right.

I was actually alluding to the whistle. But the same would apply to any of the 10 essentials, including having enough regular and emergency food with you if you go to the backcountry.

 

[Grouse]

<snipped for focus>
The terrain starts very simple, with a road from the village and wide paths through the fields and low bushes. This changes further on, the canyon is very steep. The landscape is nothing like the area where Esther disappeared.

I was actually more thinking about the third party angle after reading @miekei 's post. Lone (after separating from the others in that case) female hiker going missing in an area "about a one and a half hour drive from Benasque."

 

[Auntie Cipation]

I didn't mean to re-open the "asking for food" topic, my apologies.

And thanks to @RedHaus and @otto for replying.

What I was trying [poorly] to ask was, how close to the trailhead were the skier and his friend when they encountered ED? Were they almost to their vehicle or did they still have hours of hiking left?

I'm usually good with maps but for some reason (perhaps the unfamiliar names and two different languages) I'm struggling with this case.

I'm just asking how close to "done hiking" were the skier and friend. Thanks!