Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #5

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #581
So if the bones are ED, I guess we can assume she left the Pic on the 22nd at a little after 4:00 pm; then hiked down the ridge to Port de Vanasque where she crossed from Spain into France. She then went to Refuge de Vasque where she probably spent the night of the 22nd in the winter room.

Her next day’s hike (on the 23rd) would’ve been from Refuge de Venasque to Porte de la Glere. I’m no expert on topo maps, but it looks like that trail is pretty challenging with several very steep sections (and, it looks like it is maybe most dangerous at the end).

It still doesn’t tell us what happened to ED. It only tells us where. Very sad for Esther and Dan and their families
.

Personally I'd be very surprised if she took that route - it would have been reckless to extend her hike by a couple of days at that time of year when the weather might change drastically from day to day (and did she have enough food?). Also, there was no hiking allowed in France at that time and while she might have dipped down to the Refuge, I don't think she would have brazenly hiked in France a whole day or more. Also, if the vulture theory is correct, then she needn't have gone anywhere near Porte de la Glere herself, the bones would have been carried there from afar.

If they are her bones, finding them at that place may tell us little about where or how she died, except that her body wasn't actually buried or under thick forest - which means her body was lying somewhere in the open - but as it wasn't visible, it must have been hidden among rocks out of view.
 
  • #582
would not her back pack be made of non edible or biodegradable material.Like wise her clothing and shoes. Did she have walking poles(not sure what the technical term is) ?

Yes, she had walking poles, and also a mobile phone and titanium cooking equipment for a start. Unless she had been separated from her pack there would be things still there.
 
  • #583
There are lammergeiers (bearded vultures) around there which are famed for picking up bones and dropping them from a height onto rocks to break them open - I've seen them do that in the Pyrenees. I guess they could carry them some distance to do so - perhaps they have a favourite bone-breaking spot - usually a rocky slope at high altitude. If only a few bones were found, I would guess that's what happened and the rest of the body (and equipment) could still be anywhere within a radius of a kilometer or so. In fact, these birds eat nothing but bones, so there may be little left by now.

Edit: on reflection, I guess a kilometer is nothing to a vulture and the radius may be far greater.

I've read about at least one case in Spain where this happened. Quoting from memory, I don't remember the details that allow me to google it.

Some men were inspecting a trail through one of the Sierras near Madrid when they found part of a torso near rocks next to the trail. They found nothing else, no body parts, no traces and there was no explanation how the remains had gotten there. They were in the middle of nowhere, and if this was a crime, the alleged perpetrator would have had to walk miles, there was no road nearby.
Meanwhile, a family in town at a distance was missing the father who had gone on a ride on a bike months ago and never returned. I believe they had traced his journey to the railway station, and that was it. He had evaporated.
It turned out that the torso belonged to the missing man. Other parts of his remains were never found (that I know of) nor was the bike located.

The conclusion was that the torso was dropped on that spot by vultures, the only logical explanation left.


Another story comes from a friend who was hiking in the Pyrenees. After lunch on a warm and sunny day, he took a nap on one of those wide stone walls. When he woke up, vultures were circling in the air above him. They appeared very interested, or so he says, and they left when they saw he was still moving.

The reason I think this is what might have happened to Esther Dingley, after she had a possible lethal accident near the Puerta de la Glera, is because it is one of the few explanations (next to abduction, which we can rule out now) why she wasn't found during the searches in November 2020. DC walked all those trails and says if there had been an accident, ED would have been visible from some point.

Possibly the vultures saw her first. Unperturbed, it would have taken them a day during daylight. When the searches started later that week, they were already done.
 
Last edited:
  • #584
There are lammergeiers (bearded vultures) around there which are famed for picking up bones and dropping them from a height onto rocks to break them open - I've seen them do that in the Pyrenees. I guess they could carry them some distance to do so - perhaps they have a favourite bone-breaking spot - usually a rocky slope at high altitude. If only a few bones were found, I would guess that's what happened and the rest of the body (and equipment) could still be anywhere within a radius of a kilometer or so. In fact, these birds eat nothing but bones, so there may be little left by now.

Edit: on reflection, I guess a kilometer is nothing to a vulture and the radius may be far greater.

Interesting information thank you Federico. This prompted another foray into Wikipedia….I have learned so much from this thread.

My heart goes out to Esther’s partner & family as they await the identification process.

And to other families who may be hoping for news of a missing hiker.
 
  • #585
I've read about at least one case in Spain where this happened. Quoting from memory, I don't remember the details that allow me to google it.

Some men were inspecting a trail through one of the Sierras near Madrid when they found part of a torso near rocks next to the trail. They found nothing else, no body parts, no traces and there was no explanation how the remains had gotten there. They were in the middle of nowhere, and if this was a crime, the alleged perpetrator would have had to walk miles, there was no road nearby.
Meanwhile, a family in town at a distance was missing the father who had gone on a ride on a bike months ago and never returned. I believe they had traced his journey to the railway station, and that was it. He had evaporated.
It turned out that the torso belonged to the missing man. Other parts of his remains were never found (that I know of) nor was the bike located.

The conclusion was that the torso was dropped on that spot by vultures, the only logical explanation left.


Another story comes from a friend who was hiking in the Pyrenees. After lunch on a warm and sunny day, he took a nap on one of those wide stone walls. When he woke up, vultures were circling in the air above him. They appeared very interested, or so he says, and they left when they saw he was still moving.

The reason I think this is what might have happened to Esther Dingley, after she had a possible lethal accident near the Puerta de la Glera, is because it is one of the few explanations (next to abduction, which we can rule out now) why she wasn't found during the searches in November 2020. DC walked all those trails and says if there had been an accident, ED would have been visible from some point.

Possibly the vultures saw her first. Unperturbed, it would have taken them a day during daylight. When the searches started later that week, they were already done.


Would the searchers not have seen the vultures? I would have thought it would have been one of the things that people who knew the area well would be looking out for.
 
  • #586
Would the searchers not have seen the vultures? I would have thought it would have been one of the things that people who knew the area well would be looking out for.

Absolutely, people would have noticed. They may even come forward now that remains have been found. But on that Monday, no one in the area knew that Esther Dingley was missing. There would have been very few people in the area after the weekend, on Monday, or Tuesday, and the searches in the mountains did not start until Thursday. So there is this window of opportunity.

Not saying that this is what happened, it is all speculation, but in a way it fits with Dan's conclusion after walking all these miles in the mountains, that if Esther had an accident on her planned trail, she would have been visible. This made him suspect an abduction, another option is wildlife. The area is apparently above the tree line, vultures are the obvious candidates since bears and wolves would still have found food in the lower regions in November.

It was said that a runner found the remains near the Port de la Glère. IMO a runner would need a relatively flat and open surface to be able to run. All this makes me think that Esther could have been found on the first morning of the searches, if it had't been for the birds.

All IMO and speculation.
 
  • #587
  • #588
Absolutely, people would have noticed. They may even come forward now that remains have been found. But on that Monday, no one in the area knew that Esther Dingley was missing. There would have been very few people in the area after the weekend, on Monday, or Tuesday, and the searches in the mountains did not start until Thursday. So there is this window of opportunity.

Not saying that this is what happened, it is all speculation, but in a way it fits with Dan's conclusion after walking all these miles in the mountains, that if Esther had an accident on her planned trail, she would have been visible. This made him suspect an abduction, another option is wildlife. The area is apparently above the tree line, vultures are the obvious candidates since bears and wolves would still have found food in the lower regions in November.

It was said that a runner found the remains near the Port de la Glère. IMO a runner would need a relatively flat and open surface to be able to run. All this makes me think that Esther could have been found on the first morning of the searches, if it had't been for the birds.

All IMO and speculation.

That's a really interesting post & theory thank you.
Here's a 2013 article which explains vulture activity, if this is what happened to poor Esther.
Like you mentioned in a previous post, ED could have just been resting when attacked or could have had an accident.


"They took 45 to 50 minutes to eat the body."

Hiker Eaten By Vultures After Fall From Cliff
 
Last edited:
  • #589
Absolutely, people would have noticed. They may even come forward now that remains have been found. But on that Monday, no one in the area knew that Esther Dingley was missing. There would have been very few people in the area after the weekend, on Monday, or Tuesday, and the searches in the mountains did not start until Thursday. So there is this window of opportunity.

Not saying that this is what happened, it is all speculation, but in a way it fits with Dan's conclusion after walking all these miles in the mountains, that if Esther had an accident on her planned trail, she would have been visible. This made him suspect an abduction, another option is wildlife. The area is apparently above the tree line, vultures are the obvious candidates since bears and wolves would still have found food in the lower regions in November.

It was said that a runner found the remains near the Port de la Glère. IMO a runner would need a relatively flat and open surface to be able to run. All this makes me think that Esther could have been found on the first morning of the searches, if it had't been for the birds.

All IMO and speculation.

Excellent post and theory. So, would the best guess be that she safely made her way to the Refuge…spent the night and the accident happened the next day?
 
  • #590
Excellent post and theory. So, would the best guess be that she safely made her way to the Refuge…spent the night and the accident happened the next day?

I think she did exactly what Dan said she would have done. IMO French LE was a bit quick to dismiss her presence in the Refuge, I never felt at ease with that conclusion. Perhaps they checked the fireplace and she had not made a fire. That does not mean she was not there, only that she left no visible traces.
 
  • #591
That's a really interesting post & theory thank you.
Here's a 2013 article which explains vulture activity, if this is what happened to poor Esther.
Like you mentioned in a previous post, ED could have just been resting when attacked or could have had an accident.


"They took 45 to 50 minutes to eat the body."

Hiker Eaten By Vultures After Fall From Cliff
:eek: Well, that's horrifying. Not surprising, really, but still... Imagining your friend/family member falling all that way and, less than an hour later, there's only bones and clothes left. o_O
 
  • #592
would not her back pack be made of non edible or biodegradable material.Like wise her clothing and shoes. Did she have walking poles(not sure what the technical term is) ?
Rodents eat ground sheets of tents so a backpack could be similar material
 
  • #593
.

Personally I'd be very surprised if she took that route - it would have been reckless to extend her hike by a couple of days at that time of year when the weather might change drastically from day to day (and did she have enough food?). Also, there was no hiking allowed in France at that time and while she might have dipped down to the Refuge, I don't think she would have brazenly hiked in France a whole day or more. Also, if the vulture theory is correct, then she needn't have gone anywhere near Porte de la Glere herself, the bones would have been carried there from afar.

If they are her bones, finding them at that place may tell us little about where or how she died, except that her body wasn't actually buried or under thick forest - which means her body was lying somewhere in the open - but as it wasn't visible, it must have been hidden among rocks out of view.

Did they take Cadavar dogs up there though?
 
  • #594
I think she did exactly what Dan said she would have done. IMO French LE was a bit quick to dismiss her presence in the Refuge, I never felt at ease with that conclusion. Perhaps they checked the fireplace and she had not made a fire. That does not mean she was not there, only that she left no visible traces.

indeed - absence of evidence doesn't mean evidence of absence
 
  • #595
Is it possible she approached from the Spanish side that same afternoon/evening? I don't know what route that would have involved but I'm just thinking about the lack of communication with anyone after the 22nd when DC said the cell service around Venasque was good. I thought she might at least have uploaded some photos of the lakes the next morning if she hiked the route DC thought she was going to take, or made some sort of log of her evening and thoughts the next day, or been seen by other hikers.

Hi @Tortoise. If those are ED's remains (vs. from another soul's body), AND she got near port de la glere on her own volition (vs. a third party disposing evidence), AND she died near where the remains were found (vs. some other location further away wit vulture scavenging), then I believe ED got there by one of three routes:

1. The loop route described by DC in the dossier and to MSM and LE - meaning, port de vanesque... hospice de france... port de la glere. To do that starting at 22/11 16:10pm, IMO, would take at least one overnight, likely at refuge de vanesque as her last text implied. So in that scenario, she most likely died on 23/11.

2. What I'd call a short cut to port de la Glere, discussed in a previous thread. There is a trail that goes from the refuge de vanesque, around boum de vanesque opposite pic de sauveguarde. You can see that trail in this map I created to show possible fall points into Boum de V. It is possible, if ED took this route, she could have done it at dusk on 22/11 rather than stay at refuge de vanesque. There is a cabane in the area of port de la glere or she could have bivouacked the night of 22/11. But she also could have stayed at refuge de vanesque and the next day took this shortcut. So in this scenario she'd have died either 22 or 23/11.

upload_2021-7-24_12-7-13.png


3. A direct route from Spain, meaning, perhaps ED retreated back down to cabane de la besurtas on 22/11, where she stayed the previous night, per DC's dossier, and could have opted to stay another night. Then on 23/11, she could have backtracked towards hospital de banesque and the trail head she started at on 21/11 (all familiar to her), and from there she could have treked to port de la glere and 'dipped into France' where she died. In that scenario, she would have died on 23/11.

The only other thing I'd throw out there is recall ED tried to climb to port de la glere on 19/11 and had to turn around due to weather. IIRC she would have attempted this direct route from Spain, so perhaps she wanted to complete what she had started a few days before. In any regard, she clearly wanted to get to port de la glere. Something there was calling her. And if she did die there, I still wonder if she committed suicide in a quiet, isolated place on the ridge, gazing at Matadeta Glacier.

Of course like others, I am merely postulating... With more information about what was discovered and where, we can start to eliminate many of our theories.
 
  • #596
There are lammergeiers (bearded vultures) around there which are famed for picking up bones and dropping them from a height onto rocks to break them open - I've seen them do that in the Pyrenees. I guess they could carry them some distance to do so - perhaps they have a favourite bone-breaking spot - usually a rocky slope at high altitude. If only a few bones were found, I would guess that's what happened and the rest of the body (and equipment) could still be anywhere within a radius of a kilometer or so. In fact, these birds eat nothing but bones, so there may be little left by now.

Edit: on reflection, I guess a kilometer is nothing to a vulture and the radius may be far greater.
IIRC the stays on that pack are aluminum. Almost anything else could be carried off for nest-building or consumption, including the trekking poles, which would look like sticks.
IMO SAR would have noticed vultures. But it's also possible another weather condition kicked up right in that spot (mountain weather is fickle), and made the remains non-aromatic to vultures until later? I don't know squat about vultures, except their wings are beautiful.
 
  • #597
IMO the lack of phone messages after the 22/11 points to that being the date "something" occurred.
If you add in the facts that remains, assuming they are ED, have been found in a previously searched area could indicate they have only just arrived there, vultures being one possibility.
 
  • #598
It’s been a while since I’ve been on here for various reasons .

I guess a skull could have been picked up and dropped by vultures so where it was found, may not be the place the person died.

I imagine if a fingertip search is carried out in the area and a phone is found (if it is not a biodegradable one - I can’t recall the make and model of ED’s to know whether it would or wouldn’t be), then that may be the likely place the person died - although I’m not ruling out it having been dropped or moved by animals as well.

Would ED have had phone signal in that area? I can’t recall.
 
  • #599
Absolutely, people would have noticed. They may even come forward now that remains have been found. But on that Monday, no one in the area knew that Esther Dingley was missing. There would have been very few people in the area after the weekend, on Monday, or Tuesday, and the searches in the mountains did not start until Thursday. So there is this window of opportunity.

Not saying that this is what happened, it is all speculation, but in a way it fits with Dan's conclusion after walking all these miles in the mountains, that if Esther had an accident on her planned trail, she would have been visible. This made him suspect an abduction, another option is wildlife. The area is apparently above the tree line, vultures are the obvious candidates since bears and wolves would still have found food in the lower regions in November.

It was said that a runner found the remains near the Port de la Glère. IMO a runner would need a relatively flat and open surface to be able to run. All this makes me think that Esther could have been found on the first morning of the searches, if it had't been for the birds.

All IMO and speculation.
Trail runners are not, as a general principle, about running on the flat. Flat is boring. A mountain trail is very typical for what they do. Rough, rocky, steep.... according to skill.

It is very common for thorough searches not to turn up remains in the mountains, perhaps more common than not. They are often serendipitously found. Spain LE said we could expect this at the very beginning. It is the normal thing to expect.

Upthread, there's a lot of examples listed where hikers are missing in mountains in the US and the Pyrenees that do not get found by searches. They get randomly found by someone who happens by, sometimes years later. Largay is the best example I can think of.

The trail runner could have been taking a "pit stop" off trail.
 
  • #600
It’s been a while since I’ve been on here for various reasons .

I guess a skull could have been picked up and dropped by vultures so where it was found, may not be the place the person died.

I imagine if a fingertip search is carried out in the area and a phone is found (if it is not a biodegradable one - I can’t recall the make and model of ED’s to know whether it would or wouldn’t be), then that may be the likely place the person died - although I’m not ruling out it having been dropped or moved by animals as well.

Would ED have had phone signal in that area? I can’t recall.

Welcome back, @Hatty!!

I do not believe we know the answer to your question. In his dossier, DC only drew on an image the cell service area around port de vanesque, not port de la glere...

I went through the list of other missing persons in the Pyrenees that @ZaZara has provided and the only other two with pictures available (via Google search) are a white haired man and this woman, whom ZaZara posted a picture of earlier this year. Her hair color is more brown than ED's and I don't know where she was last seen in reference to port de la glere - could be very far away. But nonetheless, this is the best I could come up with trying to see if any other lost souls have hair similar to ED's.

Françoise Dasnois (49) from Belgium went missing without a trace while on a day hike with her husband and children in the Pyrenees in Northern Spain on July 12, 2009

450003.jpg


Francoise Dasnois was legally declared dead in December 2020.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
123
Guests online
1,575
Total visitors
1,698

Forum statistics

Threads
632,359
Messages
18,625,281
Members
243,111
Latest member
ParalegalEagle13
Back
Top