Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #6

[Grouse]

You are right to point out this again. This has been interpreted as indicating she was planning to spend the night at Refuge de Venasque the same night the message was sent, with a plan to follow the Chemin de L'Impeatrice. DC's dossier indicates she had indicated this was her plan so maybe there was some verbal communication of this plan that has not been revealed.

I agree though that if one reads this message, it would indicate a purposeful plan to head for Port de Glere the next day and the plan to enter France was a possibility. This, to me, would indicate a plan to go to Port de Glere via the Spanish side and to consider an onward "dip" into France.

The problem is that she may have been a bit vague about her plans and I would not necessarily take this exactly as in the message. She may for instance have planned the Chemin de l'Impeatrice and not considered this a proper dip into France as it is so close to the border but was perhaps considering going further to Bagneres de Luchon and maybe was referring to this as a the "dip".

What I take from this is that we have absolutely no idea if she went into France or Spain from Pic de Sauvegarde !
I suspect her remains will be found eventually a km or two from Port de Glere because it is probably more than coincidence that her last message and skull fragment were located a small distance from each other as the crow flies. The shortcut from Sauvegarde to Port de Glere is an interesting theory and she would have been able to see this area from Pic de Sauvegarde.

I'm starting to wonder if it might have been as simple as this:-

ED went to the Refuge de Venasque as planned, no signal there so no communications that night (no signs found there by DC later but "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence").

Next day no signal on immediately leaving the refuge so, possibly a bit anxious to get the ascent at Port de la Glere out of the way before it gets too late, she puts the phone back in airplane mode to conserve battery and presses on with the anti-clockwise loop with the intention of checking in with DC/other relatives later, when she has got the climb out of the way, and probably anticipating better signal high up. Doesn't check her phone the next few hours and so doesn't discover that the signal actually improves not far from the refuge.

Gets to the Port de la Glere maybe mid afternoon, gets into trouble somewhere on the ascent and has an accident there.

I think now that this is perhaps more a more likely scenario than trying to tackle the ridge and it correlates with everything in the statement “Still in the same area. Tomorrow heading for Port de le Glere or something spelt like that. Might dip into France. Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room. Keep you posted when can xx" . The loop is the dip (though saying "might" is a bit odd), and she is heading for Port de la Glere that day.

ETA: I think it also fits with ED's pattern of behaviour the day before - stayed at Besurtas with no signal, no communications until mid/late afternoon when she got to the Pic.
​

 

[RickshawFan]

You can consult whatever you like, no one at WS is stopping you from doing that.

But if so, where do you get your information about matters like insurance that are NOT in the sources that you mention?

Did you maybe mix me up with someone? To answer your question, my language says “presumably”, and doesn’t mention insurance. It just refers to general knowledge that vehicles cost a bundle.

 

[OEJ-JEO]

Dark is the operative word here, though. It would be a really bad idea to be hiking in those mountains in late November after dark, unless you were bolting for the trailhead and had a VERY bright headlamp (ED's was low lumens and last 2 hours max). And dark is early in late November: maybe 5:30 or so? And it was below freezing, so the trails were hairy. Yes, you'd have had to hang out until you fell asleep, but that's the safe thing to do. You come up with stuff: fetch water, filter it, make tea, build a fire, roast a potato, fill your Nalgene with boiling water to use as a hot water bottle to keep you warm, get out your little pencil and the sudoku you clipped from the newspaper, write journal pages, play app games, hang your damp clothes or re-arrange them on your body, traipsing to the privy, get more water, make more tea, boil water for re-hydrating your meal, wash your socks, eat your dinner, make hot chocolate, (you gotta drink LITERS to hydrate on long hauls...I was filtering at least 6 liters every dinner time on the AT).
If you hate having to sit and wait in the cold on your own, I think maybe you'd be happier waiting 'til summer when there are more people around and right now snugged up in the campervan where you'd feel warm and cozy.

I think late is the operative word. The question was why wouldn't DC consider it strange for ED to be hiking into France late in the day.

She'd expressed a distaste for sitting around alone in the cold. The Refuge de Venasque (if that was her destination) should have been well within her reach from the Pic de Sauvegarde. She was unlikely to be doing laundry on a hike of a few days duration, and unlikely to be lighting fires above the treeline where wood is scarce. Her hydration pack should have helped stave off dehydration, and she was keeping phone use to a minimum to conserve her battery.

Of course setting off late leaves less margin for error if problems arise, but she should have had ample time for the short descent from the Pic de Sauvegarde to the Refuge de Venasque.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I wonder if Dan regrets releasing the dossier. He thought it might help find her, and he probably hoped it would answer all the questions that were being asked, but instead it just led to people poring over and picking apart every little element of their lives. It didn’t help find Esther at all. It didn’t help anything, in fact, probably did more harm than good.

I would advise against it if someone I knew went missing, just as I’d advise against the Find Corrie type FB page - an absolute car crash of blue hearts and well meaning messages which served only to blur the investigation amidst thousands of fluffy posts.

Perhaps, sometimes, the less said the better.

 

[OEJ-JEO]

I also think—actually very likely the case—that the tarptent blew away potentially to some distant land. It’s basically a one-layer piece of ultra-light fabric. Since that was the only colorful item in the backpack, the remainder would have been very difficult to spot.

IMO It's likely that the tent is still in her pack, and that her pack is with her body. Time will tell.

 

[Steve13]

I'm starting to wonder if it might have been as simple as this:-

ED went to the Refuge de Venasque as planned, no signal there so no communications that night (no signs found there by DC later but "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence").

Next day no signal on immediately leaving the refuge so, possibly a bit anxious to get the ascent at Port de la Glere out of the way before it gets too late, she puts the phone back in airplane mode to conserve battery and presses on with the anti-clockwise loop with the intention of checking in with DC/other relatives later, when she has got the climb out of the way, and probably anticipating better signal high up. Doesn't check her phone the next few hours and so doesn't discover that the signal actually improves not far from the refuge.

Gets to the Port de la Glere maybe mid afternoon, gets into trouble somewhere on the ascent and has an accident there.

I think now that this is perhaps more a more likely scenario than trying to tackle the ridge and it correlates with everything in the statement “Still in the same area. Tomorrow heading for Port de le Glere or something spelt like that. Might dip into France. Hoping Refuge Venasque has a winter room. Keep you posted when can xx" . The loop is the dip (though saying "might" is a bit odd), and she is heading for Port de la Glere that day.

ETA: I think it also fits with ED's pattern of behaviour the day before - stayed at Besurtas with no signal, no communications until mid/late afternoon when she got to the Pic.
​

The cops would be able to see her GPS trace via her service provider if she were in airplane mode, surely? According to the dossier, she didn't have a compass.

 

[Steve13]

I wonder if Dan regrets releasing the dossier. He thought it might help find her, and he probably hoped it would answer all the questions that were being asked, but instead it just led to people poring over and picking apart every little element of their lives. It didn’t help find Esther at all. It didn’t help anything, in fact, probably did more harm than good.

I would advise against it if someone I knew went missing, just as I’d advise against the Find Corrie type FB page - an absolute car crash of blue hearts and well meaning messages which served only to blur the investigation amidst thousands of fluffy posts.

Perhaps, sometimes, the less said the better.

Hence questions of competence around LBT Global. The dossier raises more questions than it answers. People have understandably looked at it, as was the idea, and asked why ED had carried 4 or 5 warm jacket but no compass or socks. Whether she was reported missing on 24th, as cops say, or 25th, as dossier says. Why it took 3 days to report her missing when it was below zero on the first night and there's really nowhere in the area you can walk for 3 days with no signal. Why the dossier doesn't refer to ED's rapid departure from the gite in order to stay less than an an hour away at the roadside; then to drive just another hour and remain in a camp site for a week. Why she told a wholly credible witness that she had broken off the relationship and may not return to it. Why DC was, in spite of all the apparent delays, so confident that she would return on 25 Nov that he failed to report her missing despite saying he was terribly worried about her and the fact that she was out in sub-zero temperatures without winter kit (n.b. she may have died as a direct consequence of that, so it is important regardless of how she died). Why the cops would rule someone with a touring bike who often hitched lifts and had access to buses and trains out of travelling a mere 100 miles. Whether the cops actually had possession of DC's electronics (the dossier implies they did but it does not seem that they actually did - they may now that it is a judicial investigation). The dossier, actually, might turn out to be a good idea for the wrong reasons.

 

[pineapple23]

As newbie, I've been impressed by some of the knowledge on here, especially on the issue of likely routes/location. Do you think the authorities ever take a look on here? While SAR etc are the undoubted experts, someone thinking outside the box could just provide the vital clue. In fact has Websleuths ever been actively involved in a case?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

As newbie, I've been impressed by some of the knowledge on here, especially on the issue of likely routes/location. Do you think the authorities ever take a look on here? While SAR etc are the undoubted experts, someone thinking outside the box could just provide the vital clue. In fact has Websleuths ever been actively involved in a case?

Yes, we have been involved in police cases before where they have contacted Tricia to ask for help. Mainly in America though - I can’t think of any British, let alone European, instances where that has happened. We are much more likely to get journalists infiltrating the group and nicking our ideas and research (has happened!!)

There is a part of the forum somewhere where members help identify pieces of clothing or jewellery that may have been found on a unknown deceased person. Fascinating and I’m in awe of those posters - there have definitely been some wow moments there!

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Just to clarify:
Esther was last known to be alive on Sunday 22nd around 4pm, Dan expected to hear from her when she left the refuge on Monday 23rd, as she thought she might not have signal overnight. He probably got worried by the end of that day, and, as police have stated, reported her missing on Tuesday 24th. She was not walking around for three days before police / SAR were called.

Also, I just checked my iPhone compass and can confirm it still works on airplane mode. Whether she relied on that instead of a manual compass, I don’t know. She may have simply used the sun to guide her. And I am sure she had warm socks.

 

[Grouse]

Why the cops would rule someone with a touring bike who often hitched lifts and had access to buses and trains out of travelling a mere 100 miles.

Travelling for what purpose?

 

[Mandalas]

Snipped for focus.

Machu Picchu?

There is a book of the name! Is there a serious reference here, or is that what you mean?

 

[Mandalas]

Just to clarify:
Esther was last known to be alive on Sunday 22nd around 4pm, Dan expected to hear from her when she left the refuge on Monday 23rd, as she thought she might not have signal overnight. He probably got worried by the end of that day, and, as police have stated, reported her missing on Tuesday 24th. She was not walking around for three days before police / SAR were called.

Snipped for focus.

I can see your point here, and can understand why Dan would have waited before jumping to call police immediately to report her as missing. But wouldn't he - if concerned - have been more likely to call on the Monday evening, as he would not have wanted to leave her alone (if she was in danger) for a second night? I'm trying to think from the perspective of a worried partner and suppose am questioning if it is the culture in those circumstances not to jump to the worst conclusion and alert authorities sooner rather than later? I wouldn't have been able to sleep for a second night not knowing my partner's whereabouts in normal circumstances, never mind in that scenario. If however there were struggles in their relationship, I can see how that might have happened.

MOO

 

[Mandalas]

Yes, we have been involved in police cases before where they have contacted Tricia to ask for help. Mainly in America though - I can’t think of any British, let alone European, instances where that has happened. We are much more likely to get journalists infiltrating the group and nicking our ideas and research (has happened!!)

There is a part of the forum somewhere where members help identify pieces of clothing or jewellery that may have been found on a unknown deceased person. Fascinating and I’m in awe of those posters - there have definitely been some wow moments there!

I think we should have a page on the website dedicated to the history and background of WS, and the value that it brings to cases. Sorry, very much off topic!

 

[Mandalas]

RSBM
Indeed, @Mandalas. And thank you for bringing your expertise to the discussion of this case on WS.

Not that I endorse this theory with any enthusiasm, but the following has been mentioned here in passing. To be true to our collective discussion (and I think DC has pointed to this possibility as well) I bring forward one scenario that may challenge your hypothesis. What if a hunter accidentally fatally shot ED and found out he / she did so? That person may be motivated to cover up what had happened and hastily cover ED's body with rocks and brush; then perhaps take her kit with her / him to avoid it being found. There are many possible scenarios and this is just but one small one, IMO.

Thank you so much @RedHaus for sharing this example. It does help me to think more realistically about the plausibility of those theories, rather than jump to the slash/horror type scenario which seems so improbable.

Thanks for keeping my feet on the ground!

 

[otto]

The thing is, this budget represents a short term travel budget, but not realistic costs medium to long term.

First up, the camper needs to be insured, MOT, maintained etc

Kit needs to be replaced.

etc etc etc

Very true. I suspect they were looking at closer to €2,000 per month after factoring in dogs and van costs, and averaging costs over 6 years. A mobile home requires repairs and maintenance just like any other home.

Without knowing the income, we don't know how financially secure they were.

From my perspective, I formed the opinion that they were cautious with money and bordering frugal with food. I based this opinion on the few instances that are mentioned about them hitchhiking with empty stomachs after a long hike and receiving food from strangers, a witness stating that she shared her food because Esther did not have adequate food for the hikes in Nov 2020, and Esther asking a stranger for food while ascending a summit. There's also a story of hooking their van to a stranger's van for electricity (something like that). Although the stories relay positive experiences about the generosity of others, in general it strikes me as a lifestyle that depends on the kindness of others - particularly to cut costs.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Snipped for focus.

I can see your point here, and can understand why Dan would have waited before jumping to call police immediately to report her as missing. But wouldn't he - if concerned - have been more likely to call on the Monday evening, as he would not have wanted to leave her alone (if she was in danger) for a second night? I'm trying to think from the perspective of a worried partner and suppose am questioning if it is the culture in those circumstances not to jump to the worst conclusion and alert authorities sooner rather than later? I wouldn't have been able to sleep for a second night not knowing my partner's whereabouts in normal circumstances, never mind in that scenario. If however there were struggles in their relationship, I can see how that might have happened.

MOO

Sunday night he’d have been fine as he wasn’t expecting to hear from her. I’ll bet he didn’t sleep well on Monday night, he would have been fretting by then. But… not knowing the area and phone signal coverage, while being all too aware of the kerfuffle caused by calling out mountain rescue, at night, during lockdown, I can kind of see why he’d have left it until the following day. I am sure he regrets that now and always will

Of course, we don’t know when the alarm was officially raised (there is a discrepancy in reporting) but I’d imagine there was a flurry of calls and messages to Esthers parents / friends, and frantic attempts to track her phone before finally making the emergency call.

 

[Mandalas]

Sunday night he’d have been fine as he wasn’t expecting to hear from her. I’ll bet he didn’t sleep well on Monday night, he would have been fretting by then. But… not knowing the area and phone signal coverage, while being all too aware of the kerfuffle caused by calling out mountain rescue, at night, during lockdown, I can kind of see why he’d have left it until the following day. I am sure he regrets that now and always will

Of course, we don’t know when the alarm was officially raised (there is a discrepancy in reporting) but I’d imagine there was a flurry of calls and messages to Esthers parents / friends, and frantic attempts to track her phone before finally making the emergency call.

Yes, I see your point and am inclined to agree. What a horrendous situation

 

[Steve13]

Sunday night he’d have been fine as he wasn’t expecting to hear from her. I’ll bet he didn’t sleep well on Monday night, he would have been fretting by then. But… not knowing the area and phone signal coverage, while being all too aware of the kerfuffle caused by calling out mountain rescue, at night, during lockdown, I can kind of see why he’d have left it until the following day. I am sure he regrets that now and always will

Of course, we don’t know when the alarm was officially raised (there is a discrepancy in reporting) but I’d imagine there was a flurry of calls and messages to Esthers parents / friends, and frantic attempts to track her phone before finally making the emergency call.

Dan dossier is unambiguous that he called the rescue services on 25th, not 24th.

Just to clarify:
Esther was last known to be alive on Sunday 22nd around 4pm, Dan expected to hear from her when she left the refuge on Monday 23rd, as she thought she might not have signal overnight. He probably got worried by the end of that day, and, as police have stated, reported her missing on Tuesday 24th. She was not walking around for three days before police / SAR were called.

Also, I just checked my iPhone compass and can confirm it still works on airplane mode. Whether she relied on that instead of a manual compass, I don’t know. She may have simply used the sun to guide her. And I am sure she had warm socks.

The dossier says the alarm was raised on 25th specifically because ED had not returned on that day: "She had indicated she would return to the motorhome in Benasque by Wednesday 25th at the latest (the day she was reported missing)".

This is not a minor detail. DC has said elsewhere that he raised the alarm specifically because ED had made it clear she would return on 25th and had not so returned. At the root of this is the question of the reliability of the dossier.

 

[otto]

As newbie, I've been impressed by some of the knowledge on here, especially on the issue of likely routes/location. Do you think the authorities ever take a look on here? While SAR etc are the undoubted experts, someone thinking outside the box could just provide the vital clue. In fact has Websleuths ever been actively involved in a case?

I think it's rare that anyone in authority looks to social media for investigative purposes. I do know that this site was watched 12-15 years ago when official information regarding a murder was released without authorization. I know that resulted in a job loss. I think legal teams sometimes watch WS court discussions to gauge their arguments. Hannah Graham's murder was solved via social media - where an astute observer (not WS) noticed the suspect double back to approach Hannah - that was something missed by investigators. WS has been mentioned by media in the context of missing persons, sometimes simply because we quickly zero in on where, when and so on. There's a lot to scroll through to on a site like this to find a relevant clue or out of the box idea. I think media might look at these discussions, but doubt investigators do.