Spitballing on intent

[Mysteeri]

Sophie wrote:
"I think it's just hard for some of us (well, me, I won't speak for others) to match up the ultra-Christian forgiveness with some of the other behaviours...She also doesn't appear to have come from especially gentle stock in terms of judging others"

From what I`ve read so far, I have gotten a similar impression.

I`ve been a Christian (independent of particular denomination) for about three years and for me, forgiveness is something I try to achieve with prayer and the help of the Holy Spirit. When my faith is strong, things of this world are also much easier to bear. But of course I haven`t been in a situation close to the R`s and am not sure what to think- are they sincere or not? I can understand that it might look like they lack anger and the forgiveness is for themselves. They do (sincerely or not) give the impression that their faith is strong, that God is the judge, and that they believe they`ll be with JB again. In that context, the lack of anger and praying for the killer are easier to understand. I also wonder, how long of a process it was to be able to forgive the killer and pray for him. Or did they talk like that from early on? That would bother me very much.

SuperDave wrote:
Just remember one thing, Mysteeri: if PR is JB's killer, then I HAVE prayed for her. I STILL do.

I believe that. For now, I`ll just pray that the truth would come out, whatever it is.

 

[Sophie]

Sophie wrote:
"I think it's just hard for some of us (well, me, I won't speak for others) to match up the ultra-Christian forgiveness with some of the other behaviours...She also doesn't appear to have come from especially gentle stock in terms of judging others"

From what I`ve read so far, I have gotten a similar impression.

I`ve been a Christian (independent of particular denomination) for about three years and for me, forgiveness is something I try to achieve with prayer and the help of the Holy Spirit. When my faith is strong, things of this world are also much easier to bear. But of course I haven`t been in a situation close to the R`s and am not sure what to think- are they sincere or not? I can understand that it might look like they lack anger and the forgiveness is for themselves. They do (sincerely or not) give the impression that their faith is strong, that God is the judge, and that they believe they`ll be with JB again. In that context, the lack of anger and praying for the killer are easier to understand. I also wonder, how long of a process it was to be able to forgive the killer and pray for him. Or did they talk like that from early on? That would bother me very much.



As I understand it, Mysteeri, they went down the forgiveness route pretty early on. However, was just discussing this with my mother who pointed out a murder in South London very recently where a dear, sweet boy of 16 went out to buy some fries and was stabbed to death by a gang. His family have been very public in forgiving the murderers, largely on the basis that the gang members were probably under-privileged and badly-parented themselves. So maybe the Ramsey reaction isn't as surprising as all that?


Another thing to bear in mind, though, is that repeated religious affirmations in a suspect can be an investigative red flag.

Like so much about this case, it's so hard to know what to think.

 

[Sophie]

IMO he would be doing good to follow Bill Gate's example and study up on DNA.(and that's just for starters).

Ty, JMO. I'd also suggest he read 'The God Delusion.' Obviously he won't like the conclusions but anyone as obnoxious as Dawkin just has to be wrong

 

[JMO8778]

Ty, JMO. I'd also suggest he read 'The God Delusion.' Obviously he won't like the conclusions but anyone as obnoxious as Dawkin just has to be wrong

truer words have never been spoken!! he seems to be trying to be a modern-day Darwin.weird how his name is so close to that,too.
Darwin is so outdated as compared to what we know today, to me it's unbelievable that anyone could still buy into it.(cells were thought to be mere blobs of goo).
IMO the gov't has a lot to do with perpetuating that myth.and prayer taken out of schools has a much deeper meaning for the gov't than they are willing to reveal.
ok,I'll be quiet now.

 

[DeeDee249]

Showing my ignorance here but what religion did the Ramseys practise?

I had assumed that they were Episcopalians, which, according to Wiki is half way between Catholicism and Protestantism (ie. they do Communion etc) but I am reading about Ramsey links with the Baptist church and Methodism, too.

Not that this has any bearing on anything but I'm curious...

The Rs worshipped at an Episcopalian church at the time of JB's death. Previously, they worshipped at a different Protestant church. So a simple answer would be that they were Protestant.
The Episcopalian church (known in England as the Anglican Church) was the Catholic Church BEFORE Henry the 8th. It is the closest of the Protestant churches to the Catholic church. The other Protestant churches split from the Catholic church because of various disagreements with the Pope of the time. But King Henry, who was a Catholic, desired an annulment, which the Pope refused. The Catholic church did not (and still does not) recognize divorce, so Catholics wishing to remarry in the Church need an annulment of their marriage. King Henry divorced anyway, and to legitimize his remarriage, the Anglican Church was born. This is a simplified version. King Henry's OTHER way of eliminating wives was to accuse them of witchcraft or being unable to produce a male heir (which he also blamed on them being bewitched) and having them executed.

 

[Sophie]

truer words have never been spoken!! he seems to be trying to be a modern-day Darwin.weird how his name is so close to that,too.
Darwin is so outdated as compared to what we know today, to me it's unbelievable that anyone could still buy into it.(cells were thought to be mere blobs of goo).
IMO the gov't has a lot to do with perpetuating that myth.and prayer taken out of schools has a much deeper meaning for the gov't than they are willing to reveal.
ok,I'll be quiet now.

Dawkin has a major TV series here at the moment examining the larger mammals claiming that they totally disprove intelligent design - his manner alone makes you start looking for Creationist schools for the kids

 

[Sophie]

The Rs worshipped at an Episcopalian church at the time of JB's death. Previously, they worshipped at a different Protestant church. So a simple answer would be that they were Protestant.
The Episcopalian church (known in England as the Anglican Church) was the Catholic Church BEFORE Henry the 8th. It is the closest of the Protestant churches to the Catholic church. The other Protestant churches split from the Catholic church because of various disagreements with the Pope of the time. But King Henry, who was a Catholic, desired an annulment, which the Pope refused. The Catholic church did not (and still does not) recognize divorce, so Catholics wishing to remarry in the Church need an annulment of their marriage. King Henry divorced anyway, and to legitimize his remarriage, the Anglican Church was born. This is a simplified version. King Henry's OTHER way of eliminating wives was to accuse them of witchcraft or being unable to produce a male heir (which he also blamed on them being bewitched) and having them executed.

Thanks DeeDee. We're pretty much Godless and atheist over here now but my Methodist grandmother wouldn't go near an Anglican church on account of its 'Popery.' Certainly the rites of the Catholic Church and the high Church of England are very similar. WRT the Ramseys, I wondered whether Episcopalians went to confession like Catholics?

 

[DeeDee249]

Thanks DeeDee. We're pretty much Godless and atheist over here now but my Methodist grandmother wouldn't go near an Anglican church on account of its 'Popery.' Certainly the rites of the Catholic Church and the high Church of England are very similar. WRT the Ramseys, I wondered whether Episcopalians went to confession like Catholics?

No. Only we Catholics get to say our sins out loud. Other faiths do not have confession like Catholics.

 

[JMO8778]

Dawkin has a major TV series here at the moment examining the larger mammals claiming that they totally disprove intelligent design - his manner alone makes you start looking for Creationist schools for the kids

I'm sure;I wish I could afford a private christian college for my daughter,they sure do start to work on kids here at an early age with that darwin nonsense.esp. once they're of age,and almost out of their parents' reach.thankfully she's smart and imo won't be sold into it.

 

[JMO8778]

Dawkin has a major TV series here at the moment examining the larger mammals claiming that they totally disprove intelligent design

you know,sometimes I wish I had those side feeler whiskers and retractable claws like my cats,but they just don't come in the human model.LOL.

 

[Sophie]

No. Only we Catholics get to say our sins out loud. Other faiths do not have confession like Catholics.

Lol, DeeDee: that put me in mind of being about seven and being trotted off to confession from school every week. I could never think of any sins I'd committed so I'd make a couple up then end with 'And I've told some lies.'

 

[madeleine]

2000 March 27 Larry King Live
Interview with John and Patsy Ramsey

Larry King: If it was a pedophile, was your daughter sexually abused?

Patsy Ramsey: I don't believe there is conclusive evidence of that.
John Ramsey: We don't know. KING: Have you talked to them about -- do they send you the autopsy reports?

John Ramsey: No, no.

Patsy Ramsey: No.

John Ramsey: We've -- the police have not talked to us at all. We don't know what's been done.

Larry King: Well, they have questioned you, right?

John Ramsey: They have questioned us extensively.

Larry King: But they haven't told you anything about -- you have not seen the death certificate?

John Ramsey: No.

Patsy Ramsey: No.

Larry King: You don't know how your daughter died?

Patsy Ramsey: Well, we do.

John Ramsey: We do.
Patsy Ramsey: From what we...

John Ramsey: She was strangled.

Larry King: That's the cause of death, strangulation?

John Ramsey: That's the cause of death.

Larry King: But you don't know if any sexual activity took place?

John Ramsey: It's not clear to me that there was. We don't know. It's one of those questions you don't want to know the answer to, frankly.





:banghead:
Don't think I need more.If this doesn't make it clear...

Patsy Ramsey: I don't believe there is conclusive evidence of that.


First of all,she doesn't sound like the mother of the victim,she sounds like a TOP DEFENCE LAWYER. :banghead:



John Ramsey: It's not clear to me that there was.

WHY are they denying this if this is exactly what would help them point the finger at an intruder??

They are SCARED of this subject.WHY.And it's not because "It's one of those questions you don't want to know the answer to, frankly"

You DID wanna know,otherwise how can you state/know it's not clear to me or there is no conclusive evidence of it.


L I A R S



moo

 

[madeleine]

KING: Do you have a gut on something like this? Why you? Why her?

J. RAMSEY: We -- we told the police when this -- when they first asked us who -- do you have any ideas? We said, look, we don't know anybody this evil. This was an evil, evil person who did this. Did we know them? I can't imagine that we did.


Now ain't this convenient?
JR is a very fascinating character.
This is an evil evil person,we don't know any evil persons.Case closed,stop asking us questions,look somewhere else.But we forgive evil evil.

Wasn't it JR in one of the LE interviews who said that he would hang the killer in public out of anger?



J. RAMSEY: Well, Larry, this person is a madman, is a monster, they don't think logically.

KING: Pedophile?

J. RAMSEY: We think it was a pedophile, we think it was a male. There are several key pieces of evidence that we think will lead us to the killer, male, pedophile


A madman,a monster............a pedophile......(which they forgive)
If you think it was a pedophile how come you don't think she was assaulted?

Errrr,what key pieces of evidence makes you think it was a pedo if not sexual assault? :waitasec:




You couldn't make this up.

 

[madeleine]

JOHN RAMSEY: I thought about that everyday.

25 And there's certainly the Christian side of me

0044

1 that says, you know, forgive others' trespasses.

2 But what I've concluded is, that, you know, that

3 there is forgiveness, but there is accountability.

4 And this person must be held accountable.

5 Now, okay, what's accountability? I've gone from,

6 you know, hang him by the neck until dead in the

7 public square to put a tattoo on his forehead that

8 said, (I killed JonBenet,̃ and let him go through

9 life that way. But that's the rage within me.
10 Sometimes it's just is there, frankly. But, you've

11 got to try to put in the Christian perspective as

12 to what -- how should I really feel.

13 Fundamentally, I would want the harshest, cruelest

14 treatment that our society can put on an

15 individual for doing this.



Another fascinating piece.Which is the real JR,the religious forgiving one or the one L.Arndt mentioned.Cause I can clearly see many different things in JR which often contradict themselves.

 

[Mysteeri]

Sophie wrote
"As I understand it, Mysteeri, they went down the forgiveness route pretty early on. However, was just discussing this with my mother who pointed out a murder in South London very recently where a dear, sweet boy of 16 went out to buy some fries and was stabbed to death by a gang. His family have been very public in forgiving the murderers, largely on the basis that the gang members were probably under-privileged and badly-parented themselves. So maybe the Ramsey reaction isn't as surprising as all that? "

They might have tried forgiveness from early on, but it probably takes time. I believe that the process of dealing with a childs murder awakes different reactions and feelings- rage, desperation, grief, helplessness, anxiety, depression..The feelings might seem unbearable and ultimately, forgiveness might be the only way to gain some peace of mind.

Thanks for that example of forgiveness (Lord help if it was the R`s acting that way).

 

[JMO8778]

remember also that very early on,the R's said that they were 'not angry' with the killer,but just wanted to know why.

what parent wouldn't be angry w their child's killer???? ..just want to know why?????? big red flag..

this is not an example of forgiveness,it's an example of publicly telling LE not to look too hard..

I believe Thomas also said that when he went to GA,everyone there that knew the R's were saying the same thing...that the R's weren't angry and they just wanted to get on w their lives..UH HUH.IOW-don't look too hard for that killer,LE...........................

 

[Sophie]

remember also that very early on,the R's said that they were 'not angry' with the killer,but just wanted to know why.

what parent wouldn't be angry w their child's killer???? ..just want to know why?????? big red flag..

this is not an example of forgiveness,it's an example of publicly telling LE not to look too hard..

I believe Thomas also said that when he went to GA,everyone there that knew the R's were saying the same thing...that the R's weren't angry and they just wanted to get on w their lives..UH HUH.IOW-don't look too hard for that killer,LE...........................

True, JMO. Isn't anger an inevitable part of any healing process? I mean, in DoI, Patsy talked of railing at God for giving her cancer when she had two little kids? John's reaction to Beth's death appears to have been primal. I suppose many would argue that the Ramseys had been through so much that their reaction to JBR's death was bound to be muted. To me, though, I can't imagine any parent reacting with anything other than elemental grief - with all that entails.

I'm a bit ashamed to admit that, when I saw footage of the memorial service and funeral, especially when Patsy had the scarf on and everything, my first reaction was to think 'She's playing a part and enjoying it up to a point.' I felt that she was almost enjoying the role of victim. I'm not proud of my cynicism but the old pageant queen may well have been enjoying one last performance including the saintly forgiveness.

Another thing about the whole forgiveness thing is that it positively saturates their innocence manifesto (DoI) and seems to be calculated to demonstrate how lovely they were as compared with the horrible,abrasive, close-minded cop....


As Mysteeri says, though, it might have been a strategy for coping rather than a strategy for eluding justice - it's another hideously hard call to make.

 

[Sophie]

Thanks for the excerpts, Madeleine: they make really compelling reading.

 

[madeleine]

You know I've always thought that if they're guilty then all this strange behaviour makes perfect sense,everything they did and everything they DIDn'T do,just....everything.

If it turns out they're innocent I don't think I will ever understand these people.Ever.

Re JR saying "to put a tattoo on his forehead that

8 said, (I killed JonBenet,̃ and let him go through

9 life that way. "



They never ran away from the spotlight.Maybe somehow they accepted being under the umbrella of suspicion because it was like going through life with a "tattoo" on their foreheads?Something like, we actually deserve what's happening because somehow we have to pay for what we did?Just sayin...

 

[madeleine]

remember also that very early on,the R's said that they were 'not angry' with the killer,but just wanted to know why.

what parent wouldn't be angry w their child's killer???? ..just want to know why?????? big red flag..

this is not an example of forgiveness,it's an example of publicly telling LE not to look too hard..

I believe Thomas also said that when he went to GA,everyone there that knew the R's were saying the same thing...that the R's weren't angry and they just wanted to get on w their lives..UH HUH.IOW-don't look too hard for that killer,LE...........................

@bold
That's a B I G red flag!
Especially since Burke was coached to think the same way.And it happened SO SOON.