No footprints in the snow

[BlueCrab]

The "no footprints in the snow" is solid evidence. It proves no one entered or left the house AFTER the dusting of snow fell.

However, we don't know what time it was when the dusting of snow occurred. A light dusting can occur in 10 minutes or so. So if the dusting occurred around 2:00 AM it would preclude anyone leaving the house without leaving footprints in the snow since the killing, crimescene staging, ransom note writing, etc., would have taken at least a couple of hours to complete.

But if the dusting of snow hadn't occurred until around 5:00 AM then a person could have left the house sooner than 5:00 AM without leaving footprints, since the snow hadn't yet fallen when he left.

BlueCrab

 

[capps]

The "no footprints in the snow" is solid evidence. It proves no one entered or left the house AFTER the dusting of snow fell.

However, we don't know what time it was when the dusting of snow occurred. A light dusting can occur in 10 minutes or so. So if the dusting occurred around 2:00 AM it would preclude anyone leaving the house without leaving footprints in the snow since the killing, crimescene staging, ransom note writing, etc., would have taken at least a couple of hours to complete.

But if the dusting of snow hadn't occurred until around 5:00 AM then a person could have left the house sooner than 5:00 AM without leaving footprints, since the snow hadn't yet fallen when he left.

BlueCrab

Good post BlueCrab,and also a possibility.The detective,was doing a cursory look around the exterior of the house,he saw no obvious footprints at that time,and I believe him.But.as BlueCrab pointed out ... no one knows when the perp might have been outside the house,so we really can't go much further with the footprints,except for the fact,that the perp was not outside the house after the snow came.

There were bicycle tracks though. On the inventory list of evidence taken by LE,a bicycle registration was listed. Should we be concentrating more on bikes,than footprints?

 

[tipper]

Good post BlueCrab,and also a possibility.The detective,was doing a cursory look around the exterior of the house,he saw no obvious footprints at that time,and I believe him.But.as BlueCrab pointed out ... no one knows when the perp might have been outside the house,so we really can't go much further with the footprints,except for the fact,that the perp was not outside the house after the snow came.

There were bicycle tracks though. On the inventory list of evidence taken by LE,a bicycle registration was listed. Should we be concentrating more on bikes,than footprints?

Unless he was on the driveway/sidewalks

 

[trixie]

But John Fernie was angry when he read about the "no footprints in the snow" remark by the police. He said he himself had put footprints in the snow when he walked around to the front door to be let in after he tried to enter from the back yard through the door he said he always entered through. He was standing there when he saw the ransom note pages on the floor and was able to read some of it. You all rememeber this I assume? So, on that note there really should have been some footprints in the snow.

 

[capps]

But John Fernie was angry when he read about the "no footprints in the snow" remark by the police. He said he himself had put footprints in the snow when he walked around to the front door to be let in after he tried to enter from the back yard through the door he said he always entered through. He was standing there when he saw the ransom note pages on the floor and was able to read some of it. You all rememeber this I assume? So, on that note there really should have been some footprints in the snow.

Trixie,

I posted the same thing a few months back.BlueCrab replied back that the cops were there before Fernie arrived,so they already checked the footprints.

What did surprise me,was the fact that they let the Fernie's enter the house! Many years ago,when I first learned of people in the house on the morning of the 26th,I assumed all the people were there before the police arrived,so the police had no choice but have the people remain,because they were part of the crimescene.But to have people enter the house after they arrived .... I just don't know what they were thinking.

 

[BlueCrab]

Trixie,

I posted the same thing a few months back.BlueCrab replied back that the cops were there before Fernie arrived,so they already checked the footprints.

capps,

That's correct. The first cops got there at 6:00 AM, give or take a minute. Fernie was called after the cops were called and he had a long drive from Table Mesa and didn't get to the Ramseys house until roughly 6:20 AM. The Whites were there perhaps five minutes sooner than Fernie (they lived just one mile away). Officer French searched the inside of the house a few minutes after he arrived, looking for a point of entry and making sure the perp wasn't still in the house; and Sgt. Reichenbach searched the exterior of the house looking for possible points of entry as soon as he arrived at 6:00 AM. He didn't find any.

BlueCrab

 

[aussiesheila]

I'm not sure the window well played much of a part in this case. But, I wish I had a spider expert to ask if the warm air coming out from that window (both from the break and when it was opened to cool the basement) might have had an effect on the spider's behavior. Like snakes they seem to be driven by temperature so could this spider have built himself a web with central heating?

I did come across a site somewhere where a spider expert was consulted. He said with respect to web spinning there are 2 types of spiders. There was one type that only spun once a day and didn't do repairs and another type that constantly repaired. Both types were generally inactive during winter but if warm conditions existed in their immediate surrounds could become active even in winter. He said if the spider in the window well was of the second type it could very well have re-spun its web by 6 am.

 

[aussiesheila]

Why do the RST keep referring to those photos? They are meaningless. They prove only that the snow was gone by the time the photos were taken - which could have been anytime between daylight and night-time on 26th Dec - but most likely IMO in the afternoon when the scene of crime team arrived.

Why do the RST keep bringing up the "no footprints in the snow" at all? I have never seen any serious RDI case follower present the no footprints in the snow as evidence of ramsey guilt.

The RDI refer to Reichenbach's report - factual. The RST refer to some tabloid headline - garbage.

Probably for the same reason the RDIs keep referring to the "no footsteps in the snow" part of Reichenbach's statement. It is meaningless too because it was taken out of the context of his whole statement which went on to mention that at 6 am he also saw areas close to and around the house that were not covered by snow. As Tipper has already alerted you to.

Both RST and RDIs are trying to convince people of the correctness of their views with meaningless rubbish IMO.

 

[tipper]

I did come across a site somewhere where a spider expert was consulted. He said with respect to web spinning there are 2 types of spiders. There was one type that only spun once a day and didn't do repairs and another type that constantly repaired. Both types were generally inactive during winter but if warm conditions existed in their immediate surrounds could become active even in winter. He said if the spider in the window well was of the second type it could very well have re-spun its web by 6 am.

It would be nice to know what kind of spider we are dealing with here. Maybe it had laid its egg pouch and died. Maybe it hibernated and woke up from the warmth.

Someone (Bill Salisbury?) at the 2B WS suggested the whole window set-up may have just been an emergency escape route. Suitcase put in place if needed. Sounded logical to me.

I'd also really like to know about the grass under the grate edge. Was it appropriately greenish from having grown above the grate or pale in a section from having grown up and out from under the grate

 

[aussiesheila]

But John Fernie was angry when he read about the "no footprints in the snow" remark by the police. He said he himself had put footprints in the snow when he walked around to the front door to be let in after he tried to enter from the back yard through the door he said he always entered through. He was standing there when he saw the ransom note pages on the floor and was able to read some of it. You all rememeber this I assume? So, on that note there really should have been some footprints in the snow.

trixie, I'm not sure but I think Reichenbach's observations were made before John Fernie arrived.

 

[aussiesheila]

It would be nice to know what kind of spider we are dealing with here. Maybe it had laid its egg pouch and died. Maybe it hibernated and woke up from the warmth.

Someone (Bill Salisbury?) at the 2B WS suggested the whole window set-up may have just been an emergency escape route. Suitcase put in place if needed. Sounded logical to me.

I'd also really like to know about the grass under the grate edge. Was it appropriately greenish from having grown above the grate or pale in a section from having grown up and out from under the grate

I thought there was a live spider not a dead one, but heck how would I know.

I also thought there was a smudge on the wall under the window and above the suitcase as well as pieces of broken glass on top of the suitcase and floor. It seemed logical to me that someone must have pushed the suitcase to underneath the window so that he could step on it and reach the window opening, then as he pulled himself up he scraped his shoe on the wall and once up on the window ledge knocked some pieces of broken glass that had been left there from the time that John Ramsey broke the window, down inside the room and onto the suitcase and floor.

Ooooh, green grass under the grate edge, haven't heard about that before.

 

[ellen13]

I did come across a site somewhere where a spider expert was consulted. He said with respect to web spinning there are 2 types of spiders. There was one type that only spun once a day and didn't do repairs and another type that constantly repaired. Both types were generally inactive during winter but if warm conditions existed in their immediate surrounds could become active even in winter. He said if the spider in the window well was of the second type it could very well have re-spun its web by 6 am.

But, what are the odds that the spider would have built a web in the exact same place and at 6 a.m., it was still pretty cold ou-what 10 degrees. I have yet to find even one spider web anywhere outside my home all winter and we have the same weather conditions as in Boulder. It's not like it was going to catch insects. I have not seen one insect since the winter months either. The spiders usually die off in the winter. I want to know who hired that spider expert-The Rams??. I am fascinated with the aspect of this crime, even more so than the footprints.

 

[aussiesheila]

But, what are the odds that the spider would have built a web in the exact same place and at 6 a.m., it was still pretty cold ou-what 10 degrees. I have yet to find even one spider web anywhere outside my home all winter and we have the same weather conditions as in Boulder. It's not like it was going to catch insects. I have not seen one insect since the winter months either. The spiders usually die off in the winter. I want to know who hired that spider expert-The Rams??. I am fascinated with the aspect of this crime, even more so than the footprints.

ellen,

I think the idea is that there might have been warm air blowing out from the basement which might have kept spiders and insects active in spite of it being winter.

If I come across that spider reference I will post it.

 

[BlueCrab]

There were only three basement windows in the Ramsey house -- one in the powder room at the foot of the stairs to the basement, one in the boiler room, and one in the train room. When the cops checked the exterior of the Ramsey house early that morning, looking for a possible place of forced entry, they noticed several strands of unbroken web stretching between the masonry of the window well to the iron grate covering the window well of the window to the train room.

The window to the train room is on the west side of the house, so the sun wouldn't hit it until about noon each day. The temperature that night in Boulder dipped to 6 degrees, but warmed up to 51 degrees by late afternoon. It was 10 degrees outside at 6:00 AM.

The funnel web inside of the window well was identified by experts as belonging to the Agelendidae species of house spider. This species hibernates all winter, beginning in October and ending in March. IOW, the spider would not likely have come out of hibernation to repair his web that morning. From a picture of the funnel web the experts estimated the web to be about two months old.

BlueCrab

 

[ellen13]

ellen,

I think the idea is that there might have been warm air blowing out from the basement which might have kept spiders and insects active in spite of it being winter.

If I come across that spider reference I will post it.

Thanks!!!

I hear what you're saying, but most finished basements are pretty cold, especially large ones like that. Our finished basement is always cold, despite the heat that goes down there.
Now, I could see that spider outside if it got up to 50 degrees like it did later in the day, possibly, but we're still talking 10 degrees at 6 a.m.
Even with warm air, if it did come from the basement, that spider would have died in 10 degree weather outside, especially with frost outside. And what are the odds that the spider made that web so at 6 am, the web would be made just in time to show the police that there was no way anyone could have exited that window?? I guess it just sounds far-fetched.
Oh, I know, the spider was working for the Rams-LOL!!!
Aussie Sheila-I do appreciate your response.
Thanks,
Ellen

 

[Voice of Reason]

That's correct. The first cops got there at 6:00 AM, give or take a minute.

<snip>

Sgt. Reichenbach searched the exterior of the house looking for possible points of entry as soon as he arrived at 6:00 AM. He didn't find any.

BlueCrab

Not quite, BlueCrab. Reichenbach was not first on the scene. Officers French and Veitch were.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/jonbenet/charlevoix1.html

By the time Reichenbach arrived, the Ramseys, the Whites, the Fernies, and French and Veitch were already inside. As the story goes, Reichenbach did check the exterior of the home for footprints in the snow and points of entry before entering the home, but this came after people had already entered the house that morning...

 

[BlueCrab]

Not quite, BlueCrab. Reichenbach was not first on the scene. Officers French and Veitch were.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/jonbenet/charlevoix1.html

By the time Reichenbach arrived, the Ramseys, the Whites, the Fernies, and French and Veitch were already inside. As the story goes, Reichenbach did check the exterior of the home for footprints in the snow and points of entry before entering the home, but this came after people had already entered the house that morning...

Voice of Reason,

You are off base on this one.

The 911 call was placed by Patsy Ramsey at 5:52 AM. She called the Whites and the Fernies shortly thereafter (within a minute or so). The cops took about 8 minutes to arrive at the scene, making it about 6:00 AM. French and Veitch entered the house immediately upon arriving and searched the interior.

Reichenbach also arrived at about 6:00 AM but checked the exterior of the house for possible points of forced entry. He saw none and also didn't see any footprints in the freshly fallen snow.

The Whites didn't arrive until around 6:15, followed by Fernie perhaps 5 or 10 minutes later.

BlueCrab

 

[Jayelles]

jameson has posted photos which she took a year after Jonbenet's murder showing the "melting patterns" of snow around the house. I would like to point out that jameson's photos prove nothing about the morning of 26/12/96.

Snow varies from snowfall to snowfall. Snow can be wet and disappear on contact with the ground - or it can lie and be soft underfoot - or lie and be crisp underfoot. Snow can swirl as it falls and can create large snowdrifts which lie for weeks.

Sometimes the sun shines brilliantly and doesn't melt the snow. Other times the snow melts and the sun cannot be seen for the clouds!

Snow might fall in a cold morning and remain on the ground all morning. Then the sun might come out early afternoon and melt any snow which isn't in the shadows at that particular time! If the sun came out two hours earlier - the melting pattern would be different because the shadows would be in diferent places.

i.e. there are many factors which dictate melting patterns of snow. jameson's photos are merely an (arguably) interesting record of how the snow melted ne day about a year after the Ramsey murder - and no more.

 

[Voice of Reason]

Voice of Reason,

You are off base on this one.

The 911 call was placed by Patsy Ramsey at 5:52 AM. She called the Whites and the Fernies shortly thereafter (within a minute or so). The cops took about 8 minutes to arrive at the scene, making it about 6:00 AM. French and Veitch entered the house immediately upon arriving and searched the interior.

Reichenbach also arrived at about 6:00 AM but checked the exterior of the house for possible points of forced entry. He saw none and also didn't see any footprints in the freshly fallen snow.

The Whites didn't arrive until around 6:15, followed by Fernie perhaps 5 or 10 minutes later.

BlueCrab

If the Whites were called a minute or two after 5:52am, and they lived a mile away, why would they not arrive until 6:15? And what is your source to show that Reichenbach arrived before the Fernies and the Whites? Also, Reichenbach was NOT the first on the scene, as French and Veitch beat him there, so somebody had entered the house by the time he got there...

I'm not trying to debate this "footprints in the snow" idea, but I am only trying to limit people to posting facts, and not their own interpretations...

 

[capps]

Quote from jayelle:
"jameson has posted photos which she took a year after Jonbenet's murder showing the "melting patterns" of snow around the house. I would like to point out that jameson's photos prove nothing about the morning of 26/12/96."

Jayelle,

I don't understand why you keep referring to things that Jamson has to say. I think it is fairly safe to say that most posters in this forum take what Jameson has to say with a grain of salt,and that is why we don't go into her site,or mention what she has to say in this forum very often.

I pretty much understand the patterns of melting snow.IMO,the cop that checked out the footprints in the snow,had no idea at that time what was going on in that house,he had no allegience to the Ramsey's or an intruder.He just reported what he saw ... no obvious fresh prints in the snow at the time he checked it ... no more,no less.And I believe him.