State wants answers from Baez

[ZsaZsa]

FWIW Nancy Grace kept stating at the beginning of this case that ICA had been examined and was not found to be suffering from any Pscych abnormality.

 

[logicalgirl]

Now is a good time after spending 2 1/2 years in her comfy dorm room.
I'd be a bit coo-coo by then as well.
The MH eval. should have been done immediately. imo

Didn't the court do an assessment after the bond hearing? Will be a good parallel for the SA to rebut anything the Defense comes up with - IMO

Oh jinx I owe you a coke IfIMay!

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

My gosh they are just now asking for mental health assessments?!?!

What? I thought any mental health related defense went out the window a looooooooong time ago. An attorney had suggested it at the very beginning of the case, Baez said no, and that attorney promptly left. Macaluso? No, it was someone else and I can't remember their name.

I think it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too late to cite mental defect. Sheesh! But I'm guessing this is probably for the mitigation phase. Don't kill her because she's mental and can be rehabilitated?

She has had a couple of mental health experts visit her though. That is why they wanted her visitor log kept private IMO. One was an expert in sexual abuse and facetious disorders IIRC. Don't have time to search. So I'm wondering why they are requesting another one.:waitasec:

I believe this mental health professional is for the penaly phase...to mitigate her actions. I find it very interesting about the expert for facetious disorders.

I found this article which also includes malingering....very intersting to see how the defense would spin this disorder...

http://eprints.utas.edu.au/287/28/Chapter_23._Factitious_disorder_and_malingering.pdf


I found this article with civil cases...

http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/reprint/30/3/391.pdf


Then I found this article about facetious disorder in regards to "imagined" pain???

http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Pain-disorder.html



So it now appears to me, the defense is looking towards the penalty phase and probably aware that ICA would be found guilty. There is no where in my mind where those jurors will be able to rationalise any reason for not reporting a child allegedly missing or abducted for an entire month. Those jurors will not find a rational reason for continuing to party hearty while your child is not in your care, nor knowing if she's okay. What ever is concealed will be revealed. Everything the parents did/said will come into play and those jurors will see it was all in an effort to cover for ICA. It will be interesting to see how the defense can tie in this disorder to ICA's actions/inactions...JMHO

Justice for Caylee

 

[logicalgirl]

FWIW Nancy Grace kept stating at the beginning of this case that ICA had been examined and was not found to be suffering from any Pscych abnormality.

ZsaZsa are we sure there was no abnormality? I just remember that clip of Judge Strickland raising his eyebrows when he looked at it that day. Whatever that meant. Not me suggesting there is anything there - it just looked like "something" - although maybe he was just shocked she could have done this crime and not be abnormal?

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

One side or the other may use the existence of factitious disorder to advance the claim that the accused patient was legally insane and therefore not legally responsible for his actions. Each case must be considered individually. However, patients with factitious disorder rarely meet the criteria for legal insanity. In this respect, there is little practical significance to distinguishing between factitious disorder and malingering. However, it is reasonable to argue that the illness deceptions in factitious disorder bear a close relationship to compulsions and may represent a legitimate mitigating condition that is generally not present in malingering.

It is a mistake to assume that all malingerers are driven by shameless greed. There are countless scenarios in which malingering might be the product of financial desperation, a desire to escape physical or emotional abuse, or other causes. A fair and thorough evaluation of medical deception should include sufficient psychosocial history gathering to understand the context of medical deception.

Psychiatric reports of medical deception, particularly of cases involving factitious disorder, often make the curious assumption that a patient’s self-reported history about past abuse or another significant psychiatric event is somehow more trustworthy than all the lies, simulations, and obfuscations that are used to deceive doctors.

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/1482349?pageNumber=3&verify=0


This just gives me more food for thought. Will they use this defense to show ICA did something to Caylee out of compulsion??? This is also about sexual abuse and why ICA lies, deceives and obfuscated the truth??? Very intersting indeed...JMHO


Justice for Caylee

 

[logicalgirl]

I believe this mental health professional is for the penaly phase...to mitigate her actions. I find it very interesting about the expert for facetious disorders.

I found this article which also includes malingering....very intersting to see how the defense would spin this disorder...

http://eprints.utas.edu.au/287/28/Chapter_23._Factitious_disorder_and_malingering.pdf


I found this article with civil cases...

http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/reprint/30/3/391.pdf


Then I found this article about facetious disorder in regards to "imagined" pain???

http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Pain-disorder.html



So it now appears to me, the defense is looking towards the penalty phase and probably aware that ICA would be found guilty. There is no where in my mind where those jurors will be able to rationalise any reason for not reporting a child allegedly missing or abducted for an entire month. Those jurors will not find a rational reason for continuing to party hearty while your child is not in your care, nor knowing if she's okay. What ever is concealed will be revealed. Everything the parents did/said will come into play and those jurors will see it was all in an effort to cover for ICA. It will be interesting to see how the defense can tie in this disorder to ICA's actions/inactions...JMHO

Justice for Caylee

Well I only have time to skim the first article - thanks so much! - but the first glaring thing is Munch (whatever) never expected his listeners to believe his tall tales and he conducted his business affairs straight up!

No comparison there - good luck to the Defense with this one! I can see the SA may wipe the floor with this rebuttal if you go for a mental disorder.

Even so - let's say the defense goes this route, not responsible blah blah - I just don't see the Defense getting back consciousness of guilt. Obviously ICA was taking steps to cover up this murder - avoiding her parents, ditching her car, claiming Caylee was alive and well with the Nanny, then claiming a kidnapping. My concept of a mental health defense is the defendant isn't guilty because they didn't know they were doing something wrong.

 

[TrialAddict]

Wouldn't there have to be proof of whatever, Casey tells this person, before it could be used in court as a mitigating circumstance to avoid the dp ?

 

[logicalgirl]

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/1482349?pageNumber=3&verify=0


This just gives me more food for thought. Will they use this defense to show ICA did something to Caylee out of compulsion??? This is also about sexual abuse and why ICA lies, deceives and obfuscated the truth??? Very intersting indeed...JMHO


Justice for Caylee

LLL, again thanks for this. Just flashing through this morning and your posts caught my attention - so will come back to them when I have a bit more time. But will also open up my 340 page manual of the Florida Justice folks that outlines guidelines for mitigating factors and see for us just how much weight is given to this sort of thing, in some of the case histories, because you are bringing up some very good points.

 

[Patriciao]

ITA---It makes me gag everytime in court when jb says they are fighting to save a life----If he & the "team" were fighting that hard, deadlines would be met along with working 24/7 on this case---they don't appear to work at all --- I gag everytime jb mentions how much money the state has vs. him and his client....think he is just upset that the money train he was milking ran dry---all this should have been done ages upon ages ago....:banghead:

If he was fighting hard to save Casey's life he would have had her tell the truth in the beginning and plea for 15 years. Especially when they were uncovering nothing that would lead them away from Casey.
I would have said to Casey had I been her counsel:
Casey it doesn't look good for you. We can find no evidence that Zenaida existed and no evidence to support the stories you've told. We can take this to trial and you may or may not get off. If you don't get off you could be looking at the DP or LWOP. If you can help the investigation and ante up anything that you know then we could take a plea and bargain for 15 years. Still plenty of time for you to get out and have a life afterwards. It's a gamble either way and only you can decide if you want to take it. Think about what LE has and doesn't have against you. Think how this might look to a jury. If you are 100% positive that things came down as you say they did and want to take your chances with the jury then we'll proceed that way. I just want you to know what your options are.

 

[NavySubMom]

quoted: "I would have said to Casey had I been her counsel: Casey it doesn't look good for you. We can find no evidence that Zenaida existed and no evidence to support the stories you've told. We can take this to trial and you may or may not get off. If you don't get off you could be looking at the DP or LWOP. If you can help the investigation and ante up anything that you know then we could take a plea and bargain for 15 years. Still plenty of time for you to get out and have a life afterwards. It's a gamble either way and only you can decide if you want to take it. Think about what LE has and doesn't have against you. Think how this might look to a jury. If you are 100% positive that things came down as you say they did and want to take your chances with the jury then we'll proceed that way. I just want you to know what your options are. "

I am a MASSIVE lurker and am obsessed with this case and Casey's sociopathy and her family, her attorneys' psyches, and watch as many hearings as I can and read here very often. You all are so on top of this, I never have much new to add. I was just thinking on the above quote I pasted (not sure how to even post to include another post), and I have a feeling someone said these actual words to her, if not Jose, another of her many attorneys, and she just said "no way jose, I will never plea", I truly believe in her stone cold heart she really feels she will beat this, she truly believes this, because she does not believe there is enough physical "evidence" to convict her. She does not understand the 31 days and the smell in that trunk and her behavior while her daughter was missing, and her mother's 911 call about the smell of a dead body in the damn car, the videotape of her out shopping and renting videos, will most likely be enough. I really don't think she gets it. I will be very surprised if she ever tries for a plea, she will be rarin' and ready to go early May. I actually think she will enjoy the trial in a very bizarre way.

 

[Scamperoo]

Hi Aedrys, I think the guy you're thinking of was Lenamon or something? Here, though, I think they're talking about a mental health expert for the penalty phase, not the guilt phase. As in, yes she did it but she's crazy, was abused, some other lame excuse, so please don't kill her.

But regardless of penalty or guilt phase, I agree with OLG above, I can't believe they're just NOW getting around to it, which begs the question, WTH did Baez spend the almost $300k on??? Seriously.

I agree..
Not to nit pick but...wasn't it 200,000 + donations of 70,000 from Macaluso + 70,000 from Lyon making it more like 340,000. Oh! and lets not forget the 5,000 anonymous donation for a grand total of $345,000,

I want to give the devil his due here.. So yes I agree where did JB spend that huge amount of money? After all the taxpayers are the ones footing the bill for the lackluster defense which only really began after she was declared indigent, so I believe a full accounting is in order.

There is something completely unsavory about taking someones money without having to account for any of it, then asking for, and getting, more!!!

 

[bogeygal]

quoted: "I would have said to Casey had I been her counsel: Casey it doesn't look good for you. We can find no evidence that Zenaida existed and no evidence to support the stories you've told. We can take this to trial and you may or may not get off. If you don't get off you could be looking at the DP or LWOP. If you can help the investigation and ante up anything that you know then we could take a plea and bargain for 15 years. Still plenty of time for you to get out and have a life afterwards. It's a gamble either way and only you can decide if you want to take it. Think about what LE has and doesn't have against you. Think how this might look to a jury. If you are 100% positive that things came down as you say they did and want to take your chances with the jury then we'll proceed that way. I just want you to know what your options are. "

I am a MASSIVE lurker and am obsessed with this case and Casey's sociopathy and her family, her attorneys' psyches, and watch as many hearings as I can and read here very often. You all are so on top of this, I never have much new to add. I was just thinking on the above quote I pasted (not sure how to even post to include another post), and I have a feeling someone said these actual words to her, if not Jose, another of her many attorneys, and she just said "no way jose, I will never plea", I truly believe in her stone cold heart she really feels she will beat this, she truly believes this, because she does not believe there is enough physical "evidence" to convict her. She does not understand the 31 days and the smell in that trunk and her behavior while her daughter was missing, and her mother's 911 call about the smell of a dead body in the damn car, the videotape of her out shopping and renting videos, will most likely be enough. I really don't think she gets it. I will be very surprised if she ever tries for a plea, she will be rarin' and ready to go early May. I actually think she will enjoy the trial in a very bizarre way.

NavySubMom, about posting to include another post, just press the "QUOTE" button at the bottom of the post you want to quote. You'll see the post in the window, and you can put your thoughts underneath that quote. Hope that helps. Maybe someone can explain it better...

 

[logicalgirl]

NavySubMom, about posting to include another post, just press the "QUOTE" button at the bottom of the post you want to quote. You'll see the post in the window, and you can put your thoughts underneath that quote. Hope that helps. Maybe someone can explain it better...

LOL the problem I had, bogeygal, when I was a newbie, was making sure I had completely scrolled down to the bottom of the quote and completely past it a couple of returns - cause I kept getting caught in the quote box like that.

 

[ZsaZsa]

If he was fighting hard to save Casey's life he would have had her tell the truth in the beginning and plea for 15 years. Especially when they were uncovering nothing that would lead them away from Casey.
I would have said to Casey had I been her counsel:
Casey it doesn't look good for you. We can find no evidence that Zenaida existed and no evidence to support the stories you've told. We can take this to trial and you may or may not get off. If you don't get off you could be looking at the DP or LWOP. If you can help the investigation and ante up anything that you know then we could take a plea and bargain for 15 years. Still plenty of time for you to get out and have a life afterwards. It's a gamble either way and only you can decide if you want to take it. Think about what LE has and doesn't have against you. Think how this might look to a jury. If you are 100% positive that things came down as you say they did and want to take your chances with the jury then we'll proceed that way. I just want you to know what your options are.

I have a suspicion the conversation went more like:-
I am a trail-blazing Hispanic Attorney, and I can get you off. Trust me!
My fees? Well I don't come cheap... I like to live beyond my means but ... Let's just start by selling some Caylee photos and memorabilia, you don't need them anymore do you?
These SA guys, they have nothing. JA is so jealous of me... Once you are free we will make the rounds of TV shows, Oprah being the first one, and rake up some fat fees. Movie of the week will be looking for your story....$$$ After that you can get your RV and get away from your toxic family, you have suffered too much at their hands...

 

[Novice Seeker]

I am a MASSIVE lurker and am obsessed with this case and Casey's sociopathy and her family, her attorneys' psyches, and watch as many hearings as I can and read here very often. You all are so on top of this, I never have much new to add. I was just thinking on the above quote I pasted (not sure how to even post to include another post), and I have a feeling someone said these actual words to her, if not Jose, another of her many attorneys, and she just said "no way jose, I will never plea", I truly believe in her stone cold heart she really feels she will beat this, she truly believes this, because she does not believe there is enough physical "evidence" to convict her. She does not understand the 31 days and the smell in that trunk and her behavior while her daughter was missing, and her mother's 911 call about the smell of a dead body in the damn car, the videotape of her out shopping and renting videos, will most likely be enough. I really don't think she gets it. I will be very surprised if she ever tries for a plea, she will be rarin' and ready to go early May. I actually think she will enjoy the trial in a very bizarre way.

:welcome: :greetings:

I agree about ICA having no interest in pleading guilty. That would require ICA to admit GUILT and that's something completely foreign to her, IMO. And Cindy had no intention, desire, wish of allowing ICA to plead guilty IMO. When did Cindy ever hold ICA responsible or for that matter has Cindy felt that ICA was to blame for anything?

However, at this stage of the game IMO of course, if ICA was to plead guilty for murdering her daughter it would place others at a very high risk for criminal charges themselves MOO.


Novice Seeker

 

[Novice Seeker]

I have a suspicion the conversation went more like:-
I am a trail-blazing Hispanic Attorney, and I can get you off. Trust me!
My fees? Well I don't come cheap... I like to live beyond my means but ... Let's just start by selling some Caylee photos and memorabilia, you don't need them anymore do you?
These SA guys, they have nothing. JA is so jealous of me... Once you are free we will make the rounds of TV shows, Oprah being the first one, and rake up some fat fees. Movie of the week will be looking for your story....$$$ After that you can get your RV and get away from your toxic family, you have suffered too much at their hands...

Don't forget about his connections with the media.hone:


Novice Seeker

 

[Padua]

http://bullstopper.wordpress.com/2011/02/23/is-cheney-mason-more-confused-than-jose-baez/

Sorry if this has been posted. Thought it was interesting.

 

[Scamperoo]

:welcome: :greetings:

I agree about ICA having no interest in pleading guilty. That would require ICA to admit GUILT and that's something completely foreign to her, IMO. And Cindy had no intention, desire, wish of allowing ICA to plead guilty IMO. When did Cindy ever hold ICA responsible or for that matter has Cindy felt that ICA was to blame for anything?

However, at this stage of the game IMO of course, if ICA was to plead guilty for murdering her daughter it would place others at a very high risk for criminal charges themselves MOO.


Novice Seeker

I think this is spot on about Casey not admitting her guilt and her lawyers are doing the best they can (which isn't much)with whats left.
In her mind she is not guilty, as if she wasn't seen committing the crime, no one can say for 100% sure that she did, therefore it wasn't her. Aided and abetted by her parents no doubt, who through all the evidence contrary, support her not guilty position.

This is where I feel Casey gives herself away, she is utterly contemptuous of her parents, especially her mother, for their continued support in the face of her obvious guilt, Cindy going so far as to claim Caylee is still alive.

I think Casey also feels very noble and the role she is playing is one of the martyr, unfairly judged by the ugly masses and found guilty by reason of jealously and malicious intent (and bloggers haha)... She will be found guilty and strut to her cell as though she has done something honorable...

I believe her lawyers can't control her any more than her parents could and there is nothing left except the penalty phase and mitigating circumstances. When you have a client that not only lies to everyone but lies to herself the best bet would have been to plead out, an alternative no longer on the table..

I think JB certainly bit off more than he could chew and as his options diminish I bet he feels he would have been better off never having heard of Casey Anthony.

 

[faefrost]

:welcome: :greetings:

I agree about ICA having no interest in pleading guilty. That would require ICA to admit GUILT and that's something completely foreign to her, IMO. And Cindy had no intention, desire, wish of allowing ICA to plead guilty IMO. When did Cindy ever hold ICA responsible or for that matter has Cindy felt that ICA was to blame for anything?

However, at this stage of the game IMO of course, if ICA was to plead guilty for murdering her daughter it would place others at a very high risk for criminal charges themselves MOO.


Novice Seeker

I think this is spot on about Casey not admitting her guilt and her lawyers are doing the best they can (which isn't much)with whats left.
In her mind she is not guilty, as if she wasn't seen committing the crime, no one can say for 100% sure that she did, therefore it wasn't her. Aided and abetted by her parents no doubt, who through all the evidence contrary, support her not guilty position.

This is where I feel Casey gives herself away, she is utterly contemptuous of her parents, especially her mother, for their continued support in the face of her obvious guilt, Cindy going so far as to claim Caylee is still alive.

I think Casey also feels very noble and the role she is playing is one of the martyr, unfairly judged by the ugly masses and found guilty by reason of jealously and malicious intent (and bloggers haha)... She will be found guilty and strut to her cell as though she has done something honorable...

I believe her lawyers can't control her any more than her parents could and there is nothing left except the penalty phase and mitigating circumstances. When you have a client that not only lies to everyone but lies to herself the best bet would have been to plead out, an alternative no longer on the table..

I think JB certainly bit off more than he could chew and as his options diminish I bet he feels he would have been better off never having heard of Casey Anthony.[/QUOTE]

BBM

I suspect that would be a reason that would actually encourage little Miss mother of the year into confessing. She would sing like a bird if she realized she wasn't getting off and it would allow her to toss her entire family and assorted unrelated individuals in the klink along with her. Probably the only thing stopping her is the fear she would end up having to bunk with CA.

 

[LolaMoon08]

I suspect that would be a reason that would actually encourage little Miss mother of the year into confessing. She would sing like a bird if she realized she wasn't getting off and it would allow her to toss her entire family and assorted unrelated individuals in the klink along with her. Probably the only thing stopping her is the fear she would end up having to bunk with CA.

I have had wonderful dreams of Casey and Cindy being locked up in the same cell together. To place Casey in a cell with Cindy for an extended amount of time (23 hours a day) would probably be the most torturous punishment Casey could ever get. I'm all for cruel and unusual punishment for Casey Anthony. :woohoo: