student kills self after webcam spying UPDATE: Conviction Overturned

[LCoastMom]

This is heartbreaking. It's mind boggling to me that someone can feel so ashamed of being gay that they would end their lives - I know it happens (I live in a very fundamentalist state) but it's just wrong. And I don't want to go off on the 2 people who violated the victim's privacy - only because I don't have enough time right now.

BBM - We don't know that this young man was ashamed of his sexuality, as much as he may have been mortified over the invasion of his privacy - caught in a very private act, put on display for anyone who cares to view it! When you are 18 everything is forever and when it comes to the internet it's true!

This was not just an invasion of privacy - this was a case of cyber bullying!! Those two dim-bulbs who would plan and perpetrate such an act know it too!

The comments under the lead article have already started (oh they are just 18... can't let one loss turn into three blah, blah!) They are just 18, which means they have always been aware of the internet - they are students at a most prestigious college - if any 18 year olds on the planet should know better, it would be 18 year old college freshman at a school like Rutgers!

The charges of invasion of privacy are only worth 5 years, how many more will they get for cyber bullying?

 

[Charlie09]

It seems that I'm sensing this more heinous because he was gay. I hope I'm misreading this. The fact is, the publishing of private moments shouldn't happen regardless of sexual orientation.

I have to wonder too...if the roommate was so offended by what was going on, if he would have been allowed to change rooms or if being uncomfortable with a gay roommate would have been an acceptable reason to change rooms?

My feeling is that the kid that put it on the web is immature (although bright) and probably would have recorded any sex he knew about and mocked it.

 

[jjenny]

It seems that I'm sensing this more heinous because he was gay. I hope I'm misreading this. The fact is, the publishing of private moments shouldn't happen regardless of sexual orientation.

I have to wonder too...if the roommate was so offended by what was going on, if he would have been allowed to change rooms or if being uncomfortable with a gay roommate would have been an acceptable reason to change rooms?

My feeling is that the kid that put it on the web is immature (although bright) and probably would have recorded any sex he knew about and mocked it.

I am pretty sure Ravi must be highly intelligent or he wouldn't be at the University he is at. The code of conduct by the University clearly states that taping someone (without consent) where that someone has a reasonable expectation of privacy is prohibited. In addition recording and broadcasting of sex acts without that person's consent is illegal. Thus, it shouldn't be that hard to figure out not to spy on other people having sex, lead alone stream it on the internet.

 

[Charlie09]

I am pretty sure Ravi must be highly intelligent or he wouldn't be at the University he is at. The code of conduct by the University clearly states that taping someone (without consent) where that someone has a reasonable expectation of privacy is prohibited. In addition recording and broadcasting of sex acts without that person's consent is illegal. Thus, it shouldn't be that hard to figure out not to spy on other people having sex, lead alone stream it on the internet.

Right, my point is, it would be wrong whether gay or straight -
It's not more heinous because the victim of the taping was gay.

Would Ravi have been able to change rooms because he wasn't comfortable with his roommates sexual orientation? Should he be allowed to based on that?

 

[jjenny]

Right, my point is, it would be wrong whether gay or straight -
It's not more heinous because the victim of the taping was gay.

Would Ravi have been able to change rooms because he wasn't comfortable with his roommates sexual orientation? Should he be allowed to based on that?

If Ravi is expelled from the school he doesn't have to worry whether he likes his roommates or not.

 

[RLynne]

Right, my point is, it would be wrong whether gay or straight -
It's not more heinous because the victim of the taping was gay.

I kind of agree with you...but was Tyler open about his sexual orientation with friends, family, friends from high school, etc.? The coming-out process can be hard for people. I can't imagine a worse way to be involuntarily outed than to have an intimate encounter broadcast to the world.

 

[MoonFlwr]

I kind of agree with you...but was Tyler open about his sexual orientation with friends, family, friends from high school, etc.? The coming-out process can be hard for people. I can't imagine a worse way to be involuntarily outed than to have an intimate encounter broadcast to the world.

Beyond traumatic!

Absolutely devastating!

 

[Charlie09]

If Ravi is expelled from the school he doesn't have to worry whether he likes his roommates or not.

That doesn't answer the questions I have, and other roommates facing the same issues....

 

[Charlie09]

I kind of agree with you...but was Tyler open about his sexual orientation with friends, family, friends from high school, etc.? The coming-out process can be hard for people. I can't imagine a worse way to be involuntarily outed than to have an intimate encounter broadcast to the world.

I guess that is part of my point though. It doesn't matter if it's gay or straight - it would be devastating if it were the son or daughter of a fundamentalist who believed sex should be within marriage only, and they were experimenting outside of those bounds.

 

[germaine]

I think those actions were the catalyst to his committing suicide but perhaps not the sole reason. I think there is more to this story. I'm also confused about his allegedly having a cam4.com account to stream himself masturbating and such. Maybe someone discovered his online persona which would have revealed more than that streaming video did (which he himself thought was restricted to kissing).

hi there...I'm a newbie and have mostly been following the kyron horman case, but I attended this school and lived on this campus, so I've been following this pretty closely outside of WS and thought I'd chime in since I agree with you about a few things. First, regarding another post, I too would rather be live streamed then youtubed or something. The former is a possibility of permantness, the latter is a guarantee.

I also agree that there's something more to this story. Personally, I don't think Tyler was all that uncomfortable with his sexuality. There are several reasons for this. The cam4 type thing is really, really inappropriate for ANY teenager of ANY orientation, imo. Not just any teen engages in that type of behavior. Plus, the tone of his posts describing the situation don't sound at all like someone who is totally distraught over the situation. More like really annoyed about the spying, but not about what it revealed about his sexuality. Third, what insecure freshman just three weeks into their first semester hooks up with a dude in their room TWICE in about a week after basically telling their roommate what they're about to do, and once after he KNEW he was taped the first time? I can tell you that the only people I went to college with who would be that secure were the hetero guys having sex with girls (guys who would have been streaming it live themselves if they could have!) and maybe some really, really secure gay guys.

Last, I attended a LONG time ago, and RU already had a very strong and open lesbian and gay alliance. I didn't even really know what being gay was until I arrived there. It was before sexual orientation was openly discussed, before AIDS, etc. I'm sure the alliance has only gotten bigger and stronger since then, so the University would, imo, be a relatively welcoming environment for a gay student and there would have been many, many other gays and lesbians around for support.

It also seems to me that, at least initially, this may not have been motivated by hate toward gays. It sounds to me from the filmer's tweets or chat messages (can't remember which) sounded a little surprised that Tyler was with another male, and like he would have filmed him with a girl, too.

I wonder if something else happened that led to the suicide, and whether it really was a suicide.

eta: fwiw, this campus is primarily engineering, pharmacy and grad students. Lots of kids who would be considered *geeks* of the type-likely-to-be-bullied variety and predominantly male. Also where the married student housing is located. Also, at least back when, it was the primary hang out for commuters since it was the only campus with any real available parking. I lived there becuase I had a car and would not have been able to park anywhere else as a freshman or sophomore. The commuting student body was/probably still is, significantly different and older than the residential student body. Davidson Hall is, iirc, physically attached to the dining hall for this campus, so there's also a lot of coming and going of non-Davidson residents. Not that any of this is necessarily relevant. But I believe that you never know what might be significant. jmoo
jmoo.

 

[jjenny]

It's pretty clear that he had no idea originally that it was broadcast over the internet. He posted that to his knowledge he did not think it was recorded. So if he wasn't that upset originally I'd guess it because he believed only his roommate saw it and not who knows how many more people through the internet. And regarding him being comfortable or not with his sexuality, even if he was comfortable, doesn't mean he would be o'key with the invasion of privacy.

 

[jjenny]

I kind of agree with you...but was Tyler open about his sexual orientation with friends, family, friends from high school, etc.? The coming-out process can be hard for people. I can't imagine a worse way to be involuntarily outed than to have an intimate encounter broadcast to the world.

His classmate from high school was quoted that he never saw Tyler dating either men or women. So I am guessing he was not all that open about his sexual orientation.

 

[gitana1]

I guess that is part of my point though. It doesn't matter if it's gay or straight - it would be devastating if it were the son or daughter of a fundamentalist who believed sex should be within marriage only, and they were experimenting outside of those bounds.

True. I can see a fundamentalist student devastated by being taped having sex, or any kind of student for that matter.
However, I think there is a difference solely due to the fact that this student was gay. And that's why there may be a hate crime emphasis.
You see, gay people are the one minority it is still okay to hate in our country. I'm not saying all people feel that way or even most. I actually think the attitude is changing. But we still have a large amount of people who feel it is immoral and/or disgusting.
The prejudice against gay people is, IMO, reflected by the laws that have cropped up over the years which deny them the same rights others have. Laws denying them the right to adopt, to be in the military if out, to teach in public schools, to marry, to file income taxes jointly with one's partner, etc. When one's very existence is a target of laws against that existence, that's heavy. Imagine how that feels to a kid who may have been bullied most of his childhood for being different, whose family may not be accepting and who is still too young to see that things will get better.
I bet this young man was told that things would get better when he got out of high school. Possibly he went through years of torment, as many, many gay kids do, and thought: "If I can just make it to college, things will be different." And then this.
All bullying, all criminal harassment or invasion of privacy is wrong. I agree that it is wrong to the same degree. I don't think it matters who the target is. It's all cruel.
But I think this is a huge story in part because the issue of homosexuality in the United States of America is unresolved and fraught with acrimony. And I think Tyler's death was due in part to that acrimony. If it was a girl taped having sex with a male partner in a similar situation, I think odds are that she would be horrified, go to the police and then sue. The odds of a gay kid killing themselves in such a situation though, are high, IMO. When you feel the world is against you and there is no where to get away from the hate, death can seem appealing. The rate of suicide for gay kids is, as a result of that hate, very high compared to straight teens: They are four times more likely to commit suicide than straight kids. http://www.whptv.com/news/local/story/Alarming-suicide-rate-among-gay-teens/s-2unT6CV0qVLZ0XIA-dVQ.cspx?rss=50
So yes, what these peeping toms did to Tyler would be just as bad if they did it to a straight kid. It's the same act, the same crime. But I think the implications, the consequences of such conduct, can be far different when it's done to a kid like Tyler. And that's something we need to talk about.

 

[germaine]

It's pretty clear that he had no idea originally that it was broadcast over the internet. He posted that to his knowledge he did not think it was recorded. So if he wasn't that upset originally I'd guess it because he believed only his roommate saw it and not who knows how many more people through the internet. And regarding him being comfortable or not with his sexuality, even if he was comfortable, doesn't mean he would be o'key with the invasion of privacy.

not trying to blame this child at all. I am heartsick for him and his parents, and don't in any way condone what the roommate did. BUT, he was on the internet himself in flagrante. Not on a live web chat, but on the permanent, we know what you're doing forever, internet, doing very private things publicly. I know that was his choice, and not others to take away, but still. Posting yourself in that way kind of diminishes the *my privacy* argument.

Frankly, I can see the outing of *that* being more likely to have led to his death than the roommate's ichat stream. jmoo.

 

[Charlie09]

True. I can see a fundamentalist student devastated by being taped having sex, or any kind of student for that matter.
However, I think there is a difference solely due to the fact that this student was gay. And that's why there may be a hate crime emphasis.
You see, gay people are the one minority it is still okay to hate in our country. I'm not saying all people feel that way or even most. I actually think the attitude is changing. But we still have a large amount of people who feel it is immoral and/or disgusting.
The prejudice against gay people is, IMO, reflected by the laws that have cropped up over the years which deny them the same rights others have. Laws denying them the right to adopt, to be in the military if out, to teach in public schools, to marry, to file income taxes jointly with one's partner, etc. When one's very existence is a target of laws against that existence, that's heavy. Imagine how that feels to a kid who may have been bullied most of his childhood for being different, whose family may not be accepting and who is still too young to see that things will get better.
I bet this young man was told that things would get better when he got out of high school. Possibly he went through years of torment, as many, many gay kids do, and thought: "If I can just make it to college, things will be different." And then this.
All bullying, all criminal harassment or invasion of privacy is wrong. I agree that it is wrong to the same degree. I don't think it matters who the target is. It's all cruel.
But I think this is a huge story in part because the issue of homosexuality in the United States of America is unresolved and fraught with acrimony. And I think Tyler's death was due in part to that acrimony. If it was a girl taped having sex with a male partner in a similar situation, I think odds are that she would be horrified, go to the police and then sue. The odds of a gay kid killing themselves in such a situation though, are high, IMO. When you feel the world is against you and there is no where to get away from the hate, death can seem appealing. The rate of suicide for gay kids is, as a result of that hate, very high compared to straight teens: They are four times more likely to commit suicide than straight kids. http://www.whptv.com/news/local/story/Alarming-suicide-rate-among-gay-teens/s-2unT6CV0qVLZ0XIA-dVQ.cspx?rss=50
So yes, what these peeping toms did to Tyler would be just as bad if they did it to a straight kid. It's the same act, the same crime. But I think the implications, the consequences of such conduct, can be far different when it's done to a kid like Tyler. And that's something we need to talk about.

But people who feel that it is truly immoral should have the right to feel so. They don't have the right to act on that in their own immoral fashion i.e. posting sex things on the internet. But they have the right to their belief that it is immoral.

Tyler put himself out there recording himself - he may not be "out" with his family - but he certainly wasn't hiding himself. See the gawker link I posted above.....if a straight girl did that at 18, we'd be saying "geez, what was wrong with her parents not teaching her that once it's out there it's out there forever? "

I feel like there's a double standard here, and that there is more to his suicide than what is indicated so far - but we may never know. I don't think he gets a pass for what else was out there, neither do I believe the idiot who posted it gets a pass. Did his Ravi know Tyler had stuff online?
Again, I just think there's more to it.

 

[jjenny]

In the gawker link you provided, Tyler was anonymously posting on a message board, asking for advice- so where exactly did you get your information of what he was supposedly posting on the internet? And regardless of what he himself was posting or not, that does not give anyone right to stream the video of his sexual encounter when he clearly had a reasonable expectation of privacy, and judging from his posts it clearly upset him even when he did not know it was broadcast on the internet. And it's not just what his roommate allegedly did that upset him, but the comments from people after the tweet.

 

[arielilane]

unbelievable...more than bullying. I have no words that are permitted here.

 

[Harmony 2]

PISCATAWAY, N.J. — The college freshman who jumped to his death after two other teens allegedly streamed online video of his sexual encounter with another man had turned to university staff to help deal with the situation before his suicide, according to messages he is believed to have posted online.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39456960/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/?GT1=43001

 

[daisy7]

Durham, North Carolina (CNN) -- What made Rutgers University freshman Tyler Clementi jump off of a bridge to his death?

Was it to escape utter panic and humiliation after his roommate, Dharun Ravi, 18, allegedly set up spy cameras in his dorm room, went to fellow freshman Molly Wei's room and fired up the livestream recording of Clementi making out with another young man, as the Middlesex County prosecutor has charged?

The video was distributed over the social networking site Twitter. A life destroyed after a "prank" that seemed to be seething with homophobia.

Tyler Clementi's story may be high-profile because of the circumstances of the alleged bullying, but the fate of this young man is not a solitary incident. This parents' nightmare is repeated around the country as our society grapples with Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender (LGBT) youth coming out at earlier ages -- and being visible from grade school to college.

While they may find acceptance by loving parents and be encouraged by a culture increasingly embracing their identity, these young people find that "being themselves" is not always well-received by an important slice of their world -- school administrators, children who bully, and even teachers who subscribe to the "toughen up" philosophy. This world has not caught up, even as anti-bullying policies are being passed across the country.

(snip)

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/09/30/spaulding.rutgers.suicide/index.html

 

[pufnstuf]

If I were being spied on, I'd rather it were live-streamed rather than recorded. If it's recorded to a file and uploaded it has every chance of staying on the internet in perpetuity for all his family to see, not to mention the affect on his future employment.

Anything that is live-streamed can easily be recorded. I can assure you that someone in the circle of people who were watching the stream recorded the video.