"Stun Gun" marks

[Ames]

This case is as it appears - a rage killing by a mother and a staging abetted by the father. Berke had nada to do with this and that is further proved by his saying to his father "what did you find" and "what can I do".

He had nothing to do with it. All the theories in the world will not make it so. The problem with these Boards is that the outlandish theories come about and persist and as untrue as they might seem, they still persist. He DID NOT DO IT. He was 9, and he did not know what is happening that morning. He did what he was told to do. That is it, nothing more. Sorry.

I agree.. Burke didn't have a THING to do with his sister's murder.

 

[Ames]

Thanks for the offer Ames, but i found it on acandyrose.com
The only problem is its handwritten and i cant make out all the items. If u stumble across it in the future let me know.

Here ya go Charlie...is this what you are looking for...its only a partial list, though.

Ramsey Evidence List (partial)

Item type Item Description/location Quantity ID # Initials

Weapon brick 1 12 BAB
Bedding Comforter from victim's bed 1 37 BAB
Bedding sheet top 1 38 BAB
Bedding sheet Bottom 1 39 BAB
Bedding Pillowcase 1 40 BAB
Clothing tights black 1 41 BAB
Linens bath towel 1 42 BAB
Clothing bath robe 1 43 BAB
Clothing underwear 1 45 BAB
Writing implement Marker black 1 46 BAB
Clothing turtleneck velvet 1 47 BAB
Weapon brick Red clay 1 48 BAB
Christmas Christmas ornament w/string 1 49 BAB
Weapon golf club cover 1 50 BAB
Linens towel 1 51 BAB
Toilet tissue 1 52 BAB
Toilet liquid from toilet 1 53 BAB
Toilet liquid from toilet 1 54 BAB
Clothing tights black and white 1 56 BAB
Clothing underwear childs 1 57 BAB
Clothing underwear childs 1 58 BAB
Clothing underwear childs 1 59 BAB
Writing implement Sharpie 1 60 BAB
Clothing tights black 1 62 BAB
Clothing sweater black/red/green christmas 1 63 BAB
Clothing pants black & gray, girls 1 64 BAB
Clothing vest black, velvet 1 65 BAB
Clothing shirt black 1 66 BAB
Clothing trousers black 1 67 BAB
Clothing Shoes 2 68 BAB
Paper samples Notepad 1 69 BAB
Christmas garland 71 BAB
Christmas garland 1 72 BAB
Weapon baseball bat 1 74 BAB
Christmas Bag containing ornaments Santa Claus Swift 1 76 BAB
Christmas Santa Claus suit 1 77 BAB
Records Note 1 78 BAB
Trace evidence Fingerprints of victim 79 BAB
Trace evidence Finger prints -hand drawing 80 BAB
records Birthday card 1 82 BAB
Paper samples Legal pad white lined 1 83 BAB
Christmas bow satin 1 86 BAB
Christmas garland 34 1 through 34 BAB
Bedding comforter Black 1 1 BAH
Bedding sheet black, velvet 1 2 BAH
Bedding bed sheet 1 3 BAH
Bedding sheet bottom 1 4 BAH
Wire Wire tied in knot 1 5 BAH
Weapon hammer 1 6 BAH
Hardware Laptop computer 1 7 BAH
Writing implement markers black 3 8 BAH
Writing implement pens 2 9 BAH
Writing implement marker and pens One marker, two pens 3 10 BAH
Writing implement markers large 3 11 BAH
Writing implement pens 5 12 BAH
Writing implement ball point pen 1 13 BAH
Writing implement fountain pen 1 14 BAH
Video video cassettes 2 15 BAH
Audio audio tape 1 16 BAH
Trace evidence paper brown 1 17 BAH
Video video cassette 1 19 BAH
Software computer discs 2 20 BAH
Records Christmas card 1 21 BAH
Video VHS video tape 1 22 BAH
Software computer disc 1 23 BAH
Video Betamax video tape 1 24 BAH
Video video tape 1 25 BAH
Video VHS tape 1 26 BAH
Software NEC computer disc 1 27 BAH
Software Macintosh computer disc 1 28 BAH
Software Macintosh McWrite computer disc 1 29 BAH
Video Betamax video tape 1 30 BAH
Computer manual Compuserve book 1 31 BAH
Computer manual I didn't know Compuserve book 1 32 BAH
Computer manual Dave Berry Cyberspace book 1 33 BAH
Clothing sweatpants blue 1 34 BAH
Clothing Sweatshirt gray 1 35 BAH
Hardware Computer hard drive 1 35 BAH
Clothing underwear girls 1 36 BAH
Records Notepad w/writing 1 37 BAH
Computer manual Macintosh users guidebook 1 39 BAH
Computer manual Apple Guide CD Roms Titles book 1 40 BAH
Software NEC disc 1 41 BAH
Software Supramodem disc 1 42 BAH
Software hypercard disc 1 43 BAH
Software NEC floppy disc 1 44 BAH
Computer manual Red line users guide and disc 1 45 BAH
Software Macintosh system discs 8 46 BAH
Software Macintosh CD Rom discs 8 47 BAH
Software Dyson discs 10 48 BAH
Software various computer discs 38 49 BAH
Video video cassette 1 50 BAH
Writing implement pen black 1 51 BAH
Computer manual computer book 1 52 BAH
Clothing underwear mens 1 53 BAH
Clothing pants mens 1 54 BAH
Audio cassette tape 1 55 BAH
Clothing underwear girls 1 56 BAH
Writing implement pen black 1 57 BAH
Trace evidence Cigarette butts, leaves & bag 58 BAH
Software CD Rom discs and computer disc (2 discs and 1 disc) 3 59 BAH
Software CD Rom discs and two computer discs 7 60 BAH
Clothing Underwear girls 1 61 BAH
Clothing Underwear girls 1 62 BAH
software computer disc 1 63 BAH
Publication Envelope w/prayer book 1 64 BAH
software misc. floppy discs 8 65 BAH
Software floppy discs 5.25" 3 66 BAH
Video VHS tape 1 67 BAH
Publication magazine articles 2 68 BAH
Software Prodigy Parselwork 1 69 BAH
Video video tapes 22 70 BAH
Video video tapes 10 71 BAH
Paper samples sheet of paper 1 72 BAH
Records paper w/names and phones # 1 72 BAH
Photography Camera with 3 rolls 35 mm film 4 74 BAH
Writing implement black felt pens 2 75 BAH
Clothing underwear Girls 5 76 BAH
Clothing underwear Girls 2 77 BAH
Video video tapes 20 78 BAH
Weapon golf club 1 79 BAH
Photos photo's 6 81 BAH
Trace evidence hair blonde 2 GLI
Weapon baseball bat 1 3 GLI
Weapon golf clubs 2 4 GLI
Misc. Window grate 1 GRV
Clothing Blouse 1 7 JRB
Clothing Underwear 1 8 JRB
Clothing Underwear 1 9 JRB
Video VHS tapes 15 9 JRB
Video VHS tapes 9 10 JRB
Video VHS tapes 17 11 JRB
Video VHS tapes 13 12 JRB
Video VHS tapes “4 (5)” 4 13 JRB
Video VHS tape 1 14 JRB
Publication Newspaper article 1 15 JRB
Writing implement magic marker 1 16 JRB
Christmas gift box w/black velvet 1 17 JRB
Records Phone and address book 1 18 JRB
records Ramsey residence flier 1 19 JRB
Weapon flashlight 1 20 JRB
Video VCR tapes 2 21 JRB
Records note Handwritten 1 1 12-31-96 JRB
Writing implement Sharpie 1 1 1-29-96 JRB
Video VHS videotape 1 2 12-31-96 JRB
Writing implement Sharpie 1 2 1-29-96 JRB
Video VHS videotape 1 3 12-31-96 JRB
Paper samples Notepad 1 3 1-29-96 JRB
Computer manual Outer disc users guide and papers 1 4 12-31-96 JRB
Video VHS video tapes 2 5 12-31-96 JRB
Video VHS videotapes 2 6 12-31-96 JRB
Writing implement Marker 1 6 1-29-96 JRB
Trace evidence Fibers from area by victim 1 KKY
Trace evidence Fibers from wine cellar 2 KKY
Clothing Sweatshirt Avalanche, covering body 1 4 KKY
Bedding Blanket covering body 1 5 KKY
Wire Wire near body 1 7 KKY
Trace evidence Fibers from under body 9 KKY
Bedding blanket White, in wine cellar 1 11 KKY
Clothing Nightgown Pink, Barbie, from wine cellar 1 12 KKY
Trace evidence Glass broken, from wine cellar 1 13 KKY
Trace evidence Hair fibers from floor of wine cellar 14 KKY
Trace evidence Wooden shards wooden, near paint tray 22 KKY
Misc. Paint tray 1 25 KKY
Trace evidence Paper blue, near rear south facing door 1 26 KKY
Ligature Rope from backyard 1 32 KKY
Ligature String white, from sled 1 33 KKY
Clothing Earring found in street 1 34 KKY
Misc. Canvas bag in crawlspace 1 37 KKY
Misc. sheet metal black, in wine cellar 1 39 KKY
Christmas ornament broken, purple, from basement 1 40 KKY
Weapon pocket knife red, w/broken ornament 1 41 KKY
Trace evidence fibers vacuumed 42 KKY
Writing implement Felt tip pen 1 43 KKY
Trace evidence Hair fibers from victim's pillow 44 KKY
Trace evidence Fibers from victim's bed 46 KKY
Trace evidence Fibers From victim's pillow 47 KKY
Trace evidence Fibers vacuumed from victim's bed 48 KKY
Trace evidence fibers Vacuumed from victim's pillow and bedspread 50 KKY
Writing implement Sharpie marker 1 51 KKY
Trace evidence Hair fibers from Mr. & Mrs. Ramsey's bed 52 KKY
Trace evidence Hair found in brush in Mr. Ramsey's bathroom 53 KKY
records Rolodex in Mr. Ramsey's desk 1 54 KKY
Christmas FAO Schwartz Partially wrapped 1 55 KKY
Christmas FAO Schwartz Partially wrapped 1 56 KKY
Christmas FAO Schwartz Partially wrapped 1 57 KKY
Writing implement Marker 1 58 KKY
Writing implement Marker 1 59 KKY
Records Note handwritten 1 61 KKY
Records My Science Project" from Burke's bedroom 1 65 KKY
Records Notepad yellow, w/writing 1 66 KKY
Writing implement Pen 1 67 KKY
Christmas evergreen needles Artificial 68 KKY
Dining Bowl 1 71 KKY
Computer manual Microsoft Word manuals and disc 1 76 KKY
Video video tapes 10 77 KKY
Video VHS tapes 7 78 KKY
Records Letter to Santa 1 86 KKY
Video VHS videotapes 7 88 KKY
Video VHS tape 1 89 KKY
Video VHS tapes 3 90 KKY
photography rolls of film 35 mm 2 91 KKY
records research paper and drawings Victims 3 92 KKY
Photography Pentax camera and film 2 93 KKY
Software CD Roms. floppy discs (2 & 3) 5 94 KKY
Hardware Macintosh keyboard 1 95 KKY
Hardware modem with power cord 1 96 KKY
Hardware computer mouse 1 98 KKY
Hardware Macintosh computer 1 99 KKY
Hardware computer monitor 1 100 KKY
Misc. sleeping mask 1 101 KKY
Photos picture framed, of JonBenet 1 102 KKY
Trace evidence window broken 1 104 KKY
Photos picture framed, of Burke and JonBenet 1 105 KKY
Weapon paint brush Broken 1 PI KKY
Trace evidence Piece of window broken 1 5 KRV
Trace evidence Piece of window broken 1 6 KRV
Trace evidence Piece of window broken 1 7 KRV
Trace evidence Piece of window broken 1 8 KRV
Misc. Door from basement 1 14 KRV
Paper samples legal pad 1 15 KRV
Paper samples legal notepads 2 16 KRV
Video video cassette tape 1 17 KRV
Paper samples legal notepad 1 18 KRV
Software 3 1/2" computer discs 2 19 KRV
Records envelope w/carpet samples 1 9 MTE
Writing implement felt pen 1 11 MTE
records bike registration 1 12 MTE
Video Video from Hallway 1 13 MTE
Writing implement felt tip pen 1 15 MTE
Bedding bed sheet 1 16 MTE
Trace evidence carpet 8 1 through 8 MTE
Dining Spoon 1 5 PP
Trace evidence Glass 1 6 PP
Trace evidence Cotton from cellar room 7 PP
Christmas Angel from Christmas tree 1 8 PP
Toilet toilet tissue 1 10 PP
publication book USN OCS Seachest 801 1 11 PP
Lock Lock 1 12 PP
Toilet Toilet seat lid 1 13 PP
Publication Booklet how to use total one security control 1 14 PP
Publication AD booklet and 2 newspapers 1 15 PP
Software computer discs 2 16 PP
Lock door lock 1 17 PP
Lock door lock 1 18 PP
Bedding Blanket black and gold 1 19 PP
photos photos of victim 3 20 PP
Misc. suitcase blue 1 21 PP
Ligature Rope 1 81 RAH
Paper samples Notepad 1 1 RAW
Paper samples notepad 1 2 RAW

 

[philamena]

I agree.. Burke didn't have a THING to do with his sister's murder.

I absolutely agree with this and that leads to my conclusion. Patsy did it and John helped cover it up. IMO

Thanks for the above list. Notice that underwear is listed several times.
Were the underwear taken single pairs or a package?

Clothing underwear girls 1 36 BAH

 

[Ames]

I absolutely agree with this and that leads to my conclusion. Patsy did it and John helped cover it up. IMO

That is what I believe in my heart happened, too.

 

[BlueCrab]

Thanks for the above list. Notice that underwear is listed several times.
Were the underwear taken single pairs or a package?

philamena,

The size 12/14 Bloomi's were in packages and were located in JonBenet's bedroom. They were intended to be given to Patsy's 13-year-old niece, but one package had been opened and a pair of the hugely oversize panties were found on JonBenet's body.

There were 15 pairs of underwear located in JonBenet's underwear drawer in the bathroom. All of them were size 4 and size 6.

It's interesting to note that Patsy claimed that JonBenet normally wore size 6 and size 8, but no size 8's were found in the house -- just size 4's and 6's.

BlueCrab

 

[Solace]

That is what I believe in my heart happened, too.

But it looks like Patsy and John did a great job of averting attention from them as far as the murder goes, because there have been lots of popsters here who believe if the theory that children did this crime.

 

[BlueCrab]

But it looks like Patsy and John did a great job of averting attention from them as far as the murder goes, because there have been lots of popsters here who believe if the theory that children did this crime.

Solace,

I agree with you on this one. About 20 percent of the WS members lean toward the BDI theory, as do I. IMO the BDI evidence far outweighs all other theories, including the childrens' likely use of a stun gun as they were experimenting with extreme thrills and erotic asphixiation sex -- accidentally killing JonBenet. The parents covered it up and, because of the positions they held in the community and the ages of the children, managed to get Boulder authorities to join in what amounts to a conspiratorial coverup.

Incidentally, on the news today there was a father who for at least 10 times used a full-powered stun gun on his 18-month-old son, apparently to control the child.

BlueCrab

 

[JBRMod2]

Bluecrab - please clear your inbox.

 

[Solace]

Solace,

I agree with you on this one. About 20 percent of the WS members lean toward the BDI theory, as do I. IMO the BDI evidence far outweighs all other theories, including the childrens' likely use of a stun gun as they were experimenting with extreme thrills and erotic asphixiation sex -- accidentally killing JonBenet. The parents covered it up and, because of the positions they held in the community and the ages of the children, managed to get Boulder authorities to join in what amounts to a conspiratorial coverup.

Incidentally, on the news today there was a father who for at least 10 times used a full-powered stun gun on his 18-month-old son, apparently to control the child.

BlueCrab

I cannot even comment on the above anymore. It is just so absurd. It really is. Now they were using a stun gun. Where is the stun gun and it has never surfaced before. There are also those who would dispute the marks are those of a stun gun and I am sure you know that but disagree. I have to go now. I have plans on planet earth.

 

[Ames]

Solace,

I agree with you on this one. About 20 percent of the WS members lean toward the BDI theory, as do I. IMO the BDI evidence far outweighs all other theories, including the childrens' likely use of a stun gun as they were experimenting with extreme thrills and erotic asphixiation sex -- accidentally killing JonBenet. The parents covered it up and, because of the positions they held in the community and the ages of the children, managed to get Boulder authorities to join in what amounts to a conspiratorial coverup.

Incidentally, on the news today there was a father who for at least 10 times used a full-powered stun gun on his 18-month-old son, apparently to control the child.

BlueCrab

Sorry, but IMO...this is completely ridiculous...

 

[Solace]

Sorry, but IMO...this is completely ridiculous...

I agree.

 

[BlueCrab]

I cannot even comment on the above anymore. It is just so absurd. It really is. Now they were using a stun gun. Where is the stun gun and it has never surfaced before. There are also those who would dispute the marks are those of a stun gun and I am sure you know that but disagree. I have to go now. I have plans on planet earth.

Solace,

The injuries on JonBenet were consistent with stun gun injuries. This is confirmed by Dr. John Meyer, the only qualified person who saw and analyzed the injuries in person. Others in the field who have experience with stun gun injuries also agreed after reviewing the autopsy photos.

I'm sure you agree there was no intruder. Therefore, are you saying the parents stungunned JonBenet?

BlueCrab

 

[Ames]

Solace,

The injuries on JonBenet were consistent with stun gun injuries. This is confirmed by Dr. John Meyer, the only qualified person who saw and analyzed the injuries in person. Others in the field who have experience with stun gun injuries also agreed after reviewing the autopsy photos.

I'm sure you agree there was no intruder. Therefore, are you saying the parents stungunned JonBenet?

BlueCrab

And you are thinking that her nine year old brother stungunned JonBenet??

 

[Solace]

Solace,

The injuries on JonBenet were consistent with stun gun injuries. This is confirmed by Dr. John Meyer, the only qualified person who saw and analyzed the injuries in person. Others in the field who have experience with stun gun injuries also agreed after reviewing the autopsy photos.

I'm sure you agree there was no intruder. Therefore, are you saying the parents stungunned JonBenet?

BlueCrab

I do not believe a stun gun was used.

UPDATE 5/28/01 - Lou Smit appeared on Larry King Live. A portion of the transcript for the show follows:

[size=-1]SMIT: I am not positive that it is an Air Taser stun gun. [/size]
[size=-1]KING: Meaning?[/size]
[size=-1]SMIT: Meaning that the Air Taser stun gun is as close as we've been able to find to the marks on JonBenét. [/size]

and

KANE: The thing about the stun gun that everybody keeps coming back to. There was one person who was qualified who actually looked at that little girl?s body on the autopsy table and that was Dr. Meyer, who?s a forensic pathologist. He looked at those very marks and said that they were abrasions. It is a quantum leap-you can take a stun gun and put it up against somebody?s body...and it?s going to leave a burn. It dosen't leave an abrasion. So all these other opinions that have come out that said that this was a stun gun, there is absolutely no way they would ever get into evidence because there is no evidence that these were burns.

[size=-1]ABRAMS: But, ... there were other experts like Mr. Doberson and others and Lou Smit who have said they absolutely believe that there was a stun gun used.[/size]
[size=-1]KANE: But they?re basing that based on photographs of marks on her body. When the uncontradicted evidence of Dr. Meyer is that these were not burns.[/size]

 

[BlueCrab]

I do not believe a stun gun was used.

UPDATE 5/28/01 - Lou Smit appeared on Larry King Live. A portion of the transcript for the show follows:

[size=-1]SMIT: I am not positive that it is an Air Taser stun gun. [/size]
[size=-1]KING: Meaning?[/size]
[size=-1]SMIT: Meaning that the Air Taser stun gun is as close as we've been able to find to the marks on JonBenét. [/size]

and

KANE: The thing about the stun gun that everybody keeps coming back to. There was one person who was qualified who actually looked at that little girl?s body on the autopsy table and that was Dr. Meyer, who?s a forensic pathologist. He looked at those very marks and said that they were abrasions. It is a quantum leap-you can take a stun gun and put it up against somebody?s body...and it?s going to leave a burn. It dosen't leave an abrasion. So all these other opinions that have come out that said that this was a stun gun, there is absolutely no way they would ever get into evidence because there is no evidence that these were burns.

[size=-1]ABRAMS: But, ... there were other experts like Mr. Doberson and others and Lou Smit who have said they absolutely believe that there was a stun gun used.[/size]
[size=-1]KANE: But they?re basing that based on photographs of marks on her body. When the uncontradicted evidence of Dr. Meyer is that these were not burns.[/size]

Solace,

Kane is either deliberately lying or is a blooming idiot. Having headed up the grand jury, he should certainly know better, so I think he is deliberately lying.

John Meyer did originally describe the strange marks as abrasions and that's how they are described in the autopsy. But when later confronted with additional information he changed his opinion:

Pg 431, PMPT pb:

"After reviewing the photos and this new information, Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun."

On that same page of PMPT Dr. Robert Deters, the pathologist in a murder case where a stun gun was used on a very young girl, was shown the autopsy photos of JonBenet's injuries. Deters agreed with Meyer that the marks were consistent with a stun gun injury.

It's obvious that Mike Kane deliberately lied. Why? I can tell you why; but why can't you and others figure out why? It's as plain as the noses on your faces -- but IMO it's so incredulous that you are afraid to admit it.

BlueCrab

 

[Ames]

I do not believe a stun gun was used.

UPDATE 5/28/01 - Lou Smit appeared on Larry King Live. A portion of the transcript for the show follows:

[size=-1]SMIT: I am not positive that it is an Air Taser stun gun. [/size]
[size=-1]KING: Meaning?[/size]
[size=-1]SMIT: Meaning that the Air Taser stun gun is as close as we've been able to find to the marks on JonBenét. [/size]

and

KANE: The thing about the stun gun that everybody keeps coming back to. There was one person who was qualified who actually looked at that little girl?s body on the autopsy table and that was Dr. Meyer, who?s a forensic pathologist. He looked at those very marks and said that they were abrasions. It is a quantum leap-you can take a stun gun and put it up against somebody?s body...and it?s going to leave a burn. It dosen't leave an abrasion. So all these other opinions that have come out that said that this was a stun gun, there is absolutely no way they would ever get into evidence because there is no evidence that these were burns.

[size=-1]ABRAMS: But, ... there were other experts like Mr. Doberson and others and Lou Smit who have said they absolutely believe that there was a stun gun used.[/size]
[size=-1]KANE: But they?re basing that based on photographs of marks on her body. When the uncontradicted evidence of Dr. Meyer is that these were not burns.[/size]

Thanks for posting this....yes, I would think that someone that actually LOOKED at and SAW the marks on her body, with her lying on the autopsy table, would be 100 percent more qualified to say what they believe those marks are (abrasions)...than someone who just looked at pictures of her body and the marks. Mr. Doberson, Lou Smit...and other "experts" were NOT there...so how would THEY know WHAT made those marks? They cannot tell by looking at a picture...thats ridiculous to think that they can.

 

[Ames]

Solace,

Kane is either deliberately lying or is a blooming idiot. Having headed up the grand jury, he should certainly know better, so I think he is deliberately lying.

John Meyer did originally describe the strange marks as abrasions and that's how they are described in the autopsy. But when later confronted with additional information he changed his opinion:

Pg 431, PMPT pb:

"After reviewing the photos and this new information, Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun."

On that same page of PMPT Dr. Robert Deters, the pathologist in a murder case where a stun gun was used on a very young girl, was shown the autopsy photos of JonBenet's injuries. Deters agreed with Meyer that the marks were consistent with a stun gun injury.

It's obvious that Mike Kane deliberately lied. Why? I can tell you why; but why can't you and others figure out why? It's as plain as the noses on your faces -- but IMO it's so incredulous that you are afraid to admit it.

BlueCrab

I forgot...now WHO wrote the book PMPT?

 

[philamena]

Lawrence Schiller

wrote Perfect Murder Murder Town.

 

[coloradokares]

I forgot...now WHO wrote the book PMPT?

Schiller

 

[Credence]

Right, WolfmarsGirl's theory. I think she's onto something. Here's some info I found in a search.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3971

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4603

How would the rings make two marks in two different places with identical spacing in between?