"Stun Gun" marks

[JMO8778]

I just let my mind wander to the screaming and yelling LHP spoke of.

Has it ever been said what tone she was screaming in??? The reason I ask is that there's a big difference betwee JB screaming and crying from PR being angry at her over toileting issues,and JB screaming from actual pain,which would likely be a loud,piercing scream.

 

[coloradokares]

I agree...I used to think that John was molesting her too. But, now I don't think he was. She could have still been molested by someone else...a grandfather...perhaps...but, I am with you. I believe that Patsy was using douches on her.

Also, since I live here and cannot always divulge where some of my information comes from or provide a link.......I will tell you someone I sat down with in a position to know believes firmly corporal cleaning was a huge issue. Ames if you'd like to know I could pm you with more detail.

 

[coloradokares]

I agree,with that huge head wound,someone at some point wanted her dead..and made sure she was.IMO,either PR or JR.

But at what moment was her death sought. Before or after the initial head wound? And was it for that very reason....

 

[coloradokares]

Has it ever been said what tone she was screaming in??? The reason I ask is that there's a big difference betwee JB screaming and crying from PR being angry at her over toileting issues,and JB screaming from actual pain,which would likely be a loud,piercing scream.

My understanding was JonBenet was quite verbally vocal arumentative at times. So it could have been pain. And I believe escalation of anger could have played a role. JMHO.... it was both pain and argumentative war of wills. Just my opinion

 

[JMO8778]

But at what moment was her death sought. Before or after the initial head wound? And was it for that very reason....

I think it was before,and the head wound was to finish her off.I just can't look at that photo of her skull and reconcile it with an accident..no way.Such a split skull looks pretty intentional,IMO.
And I think the perp(s) thought she was dead,b/c of the v trauma that was inflicted(staged) on her...I think they wouldn't have done it till they thought she was dead.
I don't have just one theory though...it could have been PR getting too rough with her,knocking her out...and then not wanting her to wake up,once she figured JB was going to need medical intervention...b/c WHAT could JB tell the dr's when she woke up??? ..."Mom did this to me!" I think PR didn't want to risk that,even though it wasn't murder.She could have been afraid of being charged with child abuse,risking her reputation(and yea..we all know about PR and appearances,they meant everything to her..a former Ms WV and Ms America contestant charged with child abuse??It would make the national news!!),and risking both her kids being removed from the home.

 

[JMO8778]

My other theory is if it was JR,I think Dru has a pretty good scenerio in that case.

 

[Ames]

In thinking about the douche theory...those would likely have been found in the garbage if there were any...BECAUSE it is theorized that JB was prev. abused on the 23rd..SO the next day being xmas eve...I doubt garbage service came and got anything at all that day,nor the next day either--xmas day.
That makes me wonder when the last time garbage was picked up there..I don't think I've ever read anything on it.

I have wondered about that too...about the garbage. I am sure that it was taken into evidence.

 

[Ames]

Also, since I live here and cannot always divulge where some of my information comes from or provide a link.......I will tell you someone I sat down with in a position to know believes firmly corporal cleaning was a huge issue. Ames if you'd like to know I could pm you with more detail.

Yep...CK...please pm me with more details...this should be interesting!

 

[Dru]

JMO8778, that's a great thought about the trip to MI possibly making someone uneasy! If JBR was showing in lots of subtle ways that she wasn't going to put up with the abuse much longer, her abuser, whoever it was, might have been really worried about contact with other family members who might notice something, esp. with medical training.

I wonder if JBR's rejection of the "My Twinn" doll played a part in this too--maybe just another indication that a child who'd been somewhat complacent in the past was beginning to reject the 'attention' she was getting, and might become really dangerous to the abuser. A doll that looked like 'pageant JBR' pushed aside in favor of more 'grown-up' toys like the jewelry craft kit--maybe another sign that the little girl was starting to grow up in ways her abuser couldn't handle.

People who favor PR as the killer point to the many different stresses and tensions that might have led up to the 'toilet rage' moment, but IMHO there are just as many signs that whoever was responsible for the chronic abuse, if it really did exist, could have been experiencing similar stresses about a situation that really was explosive.

 

[Solace]

"The bigger they are the harder they fall"
You need mass combined with energy to create that damage. JB only weighed 40lbs.

Now if they dropped the bathtub on her head, I might believe that. Cheers!

Toaster: You can do that to a child if you slam her hard enough. Break her like an egg, which they did.

 

[Solace]

Also, since I live here and cannot always divulge where some of my information comes from or provide a link.......I will tell you someone I sat down with in a position to know believes firmly corporal cleaning was a huge issue. Ames if you'd like to know I could pm you with more detail.

Colorado: Okay, this is fascinating. The more I think about this, the more I believe corporal cleaning is at fault here. I think as Veronic said Patsy had huge issues with this. She had ovarian cancer, she was trying to keep JonBenet clean and I can absolutely see her doing this and roughly too.

 

[BlueCrab]

Well, I think it's been proven that IF JonBenet was in the basement when she screamed (IF it was her screaming) that it is entirely possible for the neighbor to have heard it and not the Ramseys. There was some sort of a large air duct in the basement that led to the outside and faced the neighbors house, and I believe someone (Smit & someone else) did an experiment for a show (maybe 48 hrs) that proved one could scream in the basement while someone was in the Ramseys bedroom and the person in the Ramseys bedroom couldn't hear it. I know this is posted here and was discussed previously.

julianne,

There's a marked difference between an adult female's scream and a six-year-old female's scream. Melody Stanton easily identified the scream as that of a child and she estimates that it was about midnight to 2:00 AM when she heard it. The Stanton's slept with the bedroom window slightly ajar so, IMO, Melody Stanton did indeed hear JonBenet's scream.

In accordance with several experimental sound tests, the sounds to the outside were amplified by the air duct in the Ramseys basement, but were not heard in the bedroom on the top floor where John and Patsy slept.

However, there is one little fact seldom mentioned when the scream is discussed -- the Ramseys ALSO slept with their bedroom window slightly ajar. Therefore, IMO the Ramseys, like Melody Stanton, did indeed hear JonBenet's scream and, as a result, searched for and found JonBenet's dead body in the basement at around 1 to 2 AM.

John and Patsy, until Patsy's fake 911 call was placed at 5:52 AM, spent the rest of the morning covering up a crime COMMITTED BY CHILDREN.

BlueCrab

 

[Solace]

julianne,

There's a marked difference between an adult female's scream and a six-year-old female's scream. Melody Stanton easily identified the scream as that of a child and she estimates that it was about midnight to 2:00 AM when she heard it. The Stanton's slept with the bedroom window slightly ajar so, IMO, Melody Stanton did indeed hear JonBenet's scream.

In accordance with several experimental sound tests, the sounds to the outside were amplified by the air duct in the Ramseys basement, but were not heard in the bedroom on the top floor where John and Patsy slept.

However, there is one little fact seldom mentioned when the scream is discussed -- the Ramseys ALSO slept with their bedroom window slightly ajar. Therefore, IMO the Ramseys, like Melody Stanton, did indeed hear JonBenet's scream and, as a result, searched for and found JonBenet's dead body in the basement at around 1 to 2 AM.

John and Patsy, until Patsy's fake 911 call was placed at 5:52 AM, spent the rest of the morning covering up a crime COMMITTED BY CHILDREN.

BlueCrab

What children Blue Crab?

 

[BlueCrab]

What children Blue Crab?

Solace,

Unfortunately, if I mention names my post will be deleted. Please use the process of elimination and the names will be obvious.

BlueCrab

 

[Ames]

Colorado: Okay, this is fascinating. The more I think about this, the more I believe corporal cleaning is at fault here. I think as Veronic said Patsy had huge issues with this. She had ovarian cancer, she was trying to keep JonBenet clean and I can absolutely see her doing this and roughly too.

So, could I....and now especially after reading CK's pm to me. I definately believe that it was happening.

 

[JMO8778]

So, could I....and now especially after reading CK's pm to me. I definately believe that it was happening.

Well,ST thought that was the case,so maybe there was evidence not released that proves so??? Even if it's just statements from reliable witnesses??

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778, that's a great thought about the trip to MI possibly making someone uneasy! If JBR was showing in lots of subtle ways that she wasn't going to put up with the abuse much longer, her abuser, whoever it was, might have been really worried about contact with other family members who might notice something, esp. with medical training.

yes,with Stewart in med school,studying to be a Dr.,and PR's xmas letter stating Melinda had just grad. and was working in pediatrics..perhaps she'd likely have some experience with sexual abuse cases in children??? Maybe both of them did???

I wonder if JBR's rejection of the "My Twinn" doll played a part in this too--maybe just another indication that a child who'd been somewhat complacent in the past was beginning to reject the 'attention' she was getting, and might become really dangerous to the abuser. A doll that looked like 'pageant JBR' pushed aside in favor of more 'grown-up' toys like the jewelry craft kit--maybe another sign that the little girl was starting to grow up in ways her abuser couldn't handle.

yes,and if it's true about JB rejecting the idea of dressing to match her mom that evening,that could have came into play as well??? A feeling of being out-of-control as a parent??? ..being no longer able to manipulate JB as much.

People who favor PR as the killer point to the many different stresses and tensions that might have led up to the 'toilet rage' moment, but IMHO there are just as many signs that whoever was responsible for the chronic abuse, if it really did exist, could have been experiencing similar stresses about a situation that really was explosive.

that's true,I don't rule out JR at all.

 

[Solace]

Solace,

Unfortunately, if I mention names my post will be deleted. Please use the process of elimination and the names will be obvious.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab, I can only think of one person and that person lived in the house. I do not think it was him at all. I don't know who else you would be referring to. But children did not do this crime.

 

[Veronica10]

Colorado: Okay, this is fascinating. The more I think about this, the more I believe corporal cleaning is at fault here. I think as Veronic said Patsy had huge issues with this. She had ovarian cancer, she was trying to keep JonBenet clean and I can absolutely see her doing this and roughly too.

Ah yes, this makes a lot of sense. JB had issues with wetting and soiling. As the mother of three small girls I know cleaning up a diaper or after an accident for a small girl is an intricate procedure. If soiling happens, then the (excuse the medical termiology here) labia needs to be thoroughly cleaned, and very gently just inside the vagina in case any feces may have gotten inside. Ever so gently.
If JB's cleaning up happened when Patsy was angry (the screaming sessions in the bathroom), then an injury to JonBenet is very possible. The injury to the hymen could very likely happen with rough wiping etc.

And just one more note regarding the douching theory...I only ever theorized this because I so strongly believe JB WAS NOT sexually abused. That is the only reason I would explore other possibilities for the damage to the hymen.

 

[Solace]

Ah yes, this makes a lot of sense. JB had issues with wetting and soiling. As the mother of three small girls I know cleaning up a diaper or after an accident for a small girl is an intricate procedure. If soiling happens, then the (excuse the medical termiology here) labia needs to be thoroughly cleaned, and very gently just inside the vagina in case any feces may have gotten inside. Ever so gently.
If JB's cleaning up happened when Patsy was angry (the screaming sessions in the bathroom), then an injury to JonBenet is very possible. The injury to the hymen could very likely happen with rough wiping etc.

And just one more note regarding the douching theory...I only ever theorized this because I so strongly believe JB WAS NOT sexually abused. That is the only reason I would explore other possibilities for the damage to the hymen.

I agree Veronica. I don't think he was abusing her and I cannot see him doing this sex game with her with Patsy in the house and Berke in the house wtih JB dying because of it and Patsy going along with this.