Susan Atkins wants out of jail to die...

I'm surprised at Bugliosi's stance on this. I don't understand how he fought so determinedly for a death penalty conviction for Susan, and now thinks justice will still be served if she's allowed to be released. He became famous for this case and in his book, Helter Skelter, he strove to convince everyone of the evil that is the Manson family.

Now, I wonder where his compassion for the victims' famlies has gone. Better he would have answered "No comment," regarding this issue rather than verbally degrade the justice given to the families. He seems to be contradicting everything he believed in and fought for all those years ago.

Only if he considers compassion an "either/or" proposition. Perhaps, like me and some others, he believes it can be rightfully extended to all without lessening its effect.

I personally would have no problem prosecuting a person who broke the law and still feeling compassion for them. Maybe my view is shaped by the fact that I see "justice" as not just or mainly for the family, but for all citizens of a free environment. I understand that family of a loved one who is harmed by violence feel it more acutely and personally, but prosecutors are protecting the state or the country - not just individuals.

I do not find his statements on this subject contradictory.
 
Hi philamena !!

I do realize this is specifically about Adkins, but what makes her different than any other killer ?? If she doesnt deserve to die in prison because she is terminally ill-- why wouldnt any other killer have to ?

Well I suspect since there is a state law saying any prisoner has the right to make this request, she's not different than any other killer when it comes to this issue.
 
I think families of people who've been horribly murdered should at least be entitled to the small comfort of knowing the killer is never getting out and be able to mourn their loved ones without worrying about periodic court hearings. Susan Atkins, and others like her, at least owe their victims' families that.

Welcome, Kiki.

This has been an interesting thread. I am sure all of our opinions are formed, in part, by sliding into the shoes of Sharon Tate's family and the family members of others Susan killed. I know mine are formed from that vantage point.

If it had been my sister, mother, daughter, son, brother, husband, father, etc.., I believe I would wish for her request to be granted. I would take no comfort whatsoever in keeping her in jail and would, in fact, feel deeply
saddened by that possibility.
 
I believe she'll die before any legalities are finalised, one way or another.
 
Hi JBean, probably you should read the whole thread to better understand why I posted what I posted. In any case, it has already been determined by the prison people that she does meet the requirements and there is a hearing scheduled for mid July.
Being turned down for parole does not necessarily factor into a compassionate release.
LOL>. Thanks for the little hand smack. I did read the thread Nora, but thanks for the advice..that is really cute!
I was really just reiterating, hope that's ok!
But you are right I should have said I don't think I know exactly how she meets the other requirements. As far as denial of parole factoring into the compassionate release request I wasn't implying that but maybe you were just offering that as an aside.

ETA: also wanted to add my cents since I live in CA. I have no problem with her being released. We are footing the bill for expensive care for sick and dying prisoners in an already overcrowded jail-prison system. It's a waste of tax payer dollars and frankly we are overburdened as it is. let her pay for her own death.
 
After reading this entire thread it is clear that this isn't an easily answered question. Good points have been made on both sides. Makes me wonder how hard it would be to have to make this decision if I were on the parole board. I am assuming that is who makes the decision? Or in this case, will it be a judge?

I think if I had to cast a vote in this, I would have to invoke both justice and mercy. The question is, mercy for whom? Justice demands that Atkins pay for her crimes. Each time she has asked to be paroled she was in effect, asking that justice be "set aside". Each time that has been denied. I would think that the fact that her victims family members speak out plays a large part in why she keeps getting her parole denied. This time she is asking for "mercy" to over rule justice on the grounds that she is dying. That is a persuasive argument, since all of us comprehend what death means, we feel almost a knee jerk reaction of compassion for her situation. After all, if we cant grant a dying person their final wish what does that say about us?

I think it is important to remove the decision from the context that Atkins is asking it to be looked at from. If she was not terminal, would she be asking this? If she was not terminal would we be so quick to grant her freedom? The obvious answer to both of those questions is no. She didnt ask for this extraordinary "mercy" when her leg was amputated, she only asked now, when she can play that all powerful death card. Society didnt see fit to release her earlier even though it legally could have by paroling her.

So apparently it is the "death" thing that is supposed to trump all previous decisions. Realistically, we are all dying. Susan Atkins just has an approximate date. That is the only thing that separates her from Sharon Tates mother, herself an Atkins victim who has died and Sharons sister who will die too, at some point. All of Atkins victims family members will die. We all will, death is inevitable and renders us all equal in the end. Since that is the case and everyone in this scenario is going to die, not just Atkins, how is justice best served, and what about mercy? It would appear that justice would best be served by giving Atkins the same answer she was getting before she "knew" she was terminal. Bottom line is, she was "terminal" from day one. We all are. The ONLY thing different about her is she has that "approximate" date. Since that means that all of her victims are terminal too, who should get the "mercy"? It would be great if the innocent family members were fine with Atkins being released to die, but they are not. And that is the whole defining point as to which way "mercy" should flow.

It is pretty clear that when you neutralize the feelings that are stirred up by the thought of imminent death, things need to proceed just as they have been. Her impending death doesnt trump her need to serve out the justice of the society she lives in. Mercy in its truest sense would best be applied in making the most innocent feel the best for the longest. That would mean that all of the family members of Atkins victims not see her released under some mistaken guise of compassion. It would be great if the innocent family members were fine with Atkins being released to die, but they are not. And that is the whole defining point as to which way "mercy" should flow.


These innocent people dont want her released and they have a moral and legal right to those feelings. After Atkins is dead the mercy that was extended to them by considering their feelings over a dying murderers will remain.

Hopefully the small amount of justice that Atkins received while taking art classes and writing books will continue right to the end of her life. Then the victims family will have closure. Even if ineptly, justice was served, and mercy was shown to THEM. The loved ones of the victims, who have to keep on living until their own deaths.
 
I dont feel sorry for her at all. This just goes to show that what goes around comes around. Her victimes died a horrible death and now so will she. What makes her think she is so special that anyone should show her mercy when she showed her victims none.
 
After reading this entire thread it is clear that this isn't an easily answered question. Good points have been made on both sides. Makes me wonder how hard it would be to have to make this decision if I were on the parole board. I am assuming that is who makes the decision? Or in this case, will it be a judge?

I think if I had to cast a vote in this, I would have to invoke both justice and mercy. The question is, mercy for whom? Justice demands that Atkins pay for her crimes. Each time she has asked to be paroled she was in effect, asking that justice be "set aside". Each time that has been denied. I would think that the fact that her victims family members speak out plays a large part in why she keeps getting her parole denied. This time she is asking for "mercy" to over rule justice on the grounds that she is dying. That is a persuasive argument, since all of us comprehend what death means, we feel almost a knee jerk reaction of compassion for her situation. After all, if we cant grant a dying person their final wish what does that say about us?

I think it is important to remove the decision from the context that Atkins is asking it to be looked at from. If she was not terminal, would she be asking this? If she was not terminal would we be so quick to grant her freedom? The obvious answer to both of those questions is no. She didnt ask for this extraordinary "mercy" when her leg was amputated, she only asked now, when she can play that all powerful death card. Society didnt see fit to release her earlier even though it legally could have by paroling her.

So apparently it is the "death" thing that is supposed to trump all previous decisions. Realistically, we are all dying. Susan Atkins just has an approximate date. That is the only thing that separates her from Sharon Tates mother, herself an Atkins victim who has died and Sharons sister who will die too, at some point. All of Atkins victims family members will die. We all will, death is inevitable and renders us all equal in the end. Since that is the case and everyone in this scenario is going to die, not just Atkins, how is justice best served, and what about mercy? It would appear that justice would best be served by giving Atkins the same answer she was getting before she "knew" she was terminal. Bottom line is, she was "terminal" from day one. We all are. The ONLY thing different about her is she has that "approximate" date. Since that means that all of her victims are terminal too, who should get the "mercy"? It would be great if the innocent family members were fine with Atkins being released to die, but they are not. And that is the whole defining point as to which way "mercy" should flow.

It is pretty clear that when you neutralize the feelings that are stirred up by the thought of imminent death, things need to proceed just as they have been. Her impending death doesnt trump her need to serve out the justice of the society she lives in. Mercy in its truest sense would best be applied in making the most innocent feel the best for the longest. That would mean that all of the family members of Atkins victims not see her released under some mistaken guise of compassion. It would be great if the innocent family members were fine with Atkins being released to die, but they are not. And that is the whole defining point as to which way "mercy" should flow.


These innocent people dont want her released and they have a moral and legal right to those feelings. After Atkins is dead the mercy that was extended to them by considering their feelings over a dying murderers will remain.

Hopefully the small amount of justice that Atkins received while taking art classes and writing books will continue right to the end of her life. Then the victims family will have closure. Even if ineptly, justice was served, and mercy was shown to THEM. The loved ones of the victims, who have to keep on living until their own deaths.

Thought provoking post. Though some on this thread have put forth the opinion that she should be paroled regardless.
 
...... Mercy in its truest sense would best be applied in making the most innocent feel the best for the longest. That would mean that all of the family members of Atkins victims not see her released ......

How would you feel if all the family members of the people she harmed said - "sure - no problem, release her"?

I ask this because your post supposes that this decision might be clouded and driven by her impending death. I presuppose that it is clouded and drive by what people would want done in this circumstance if they were related to the people she harmed.
 
I dont feel sorry for her at all. This just goes to show that what goes around comes around. Her victimes died a horrible death and now so will she. What makes her think she is so special that anyone should show her mercy when she showed her victims none.

The state of California apparently feels like any prisoner facing certain impending death is "special" enough to request compassionate release. That's a fascinating law, I think. I am a little suprised by it but I like it.
 
Thanks south - you are always so supportive of everyones ideas and thoughts! When I grow up I want to be more like you :blowkiss:

oh! wait a minute.....:waitasec: I AM older that YOU!

Oh well...............you know what I mean
angellostwings.gif
 
I have tons of compassion...it is just that I can NOT seem to bring myself to have any for Susan Atkins.

After reading some of the articles about the possiblity of giving this woman a compassionate release I am still wondering 'what would be the point?'

She is in a local hospital (not a prison Hospital) and it was stated that even if given the compassionate release she would remain in that hospital until her death.

So the best that I can tell the only things that would change is the guard at her door, and the address the hospital sends the bill to.

both of which would save the taxpayers $$. But even put in a dollars and cents mind set, I still can not get behind letting this woman out in anything other than a hearse.
 
The state of California apparently feels like any prisoner facing certain impending death is "special" enough to request compassionate release. That's a fascinating law, I think. I am a little suprised by it but I like it.

I would like to think that law has not so much to do with sentiment for the dying as it does with practicality. Get them off the tax dole and let their family do all the work that it takes to see death through. Criminal is to ill to be a threat so society is safe. The family is happy. Public opinion gives it a free pass because it makes us feel good about how compassionate we all are. The only ones who might mind are the survivers of the victims. That is a small amount of people by comparison.

What if it was Alejandro Avila asking for release and Samantha Runions mom who said please dont release him?
 
Thanks south - you are always so supportive of everyones ideas and thoughts! When I grow up I want to be more like you :blowkiss:

oh! wait a minute.....:waitasec: I AM older that YOU!

Oh well...............you know what I mean
angellostwings.gif

LOL!! No no - that's my line to you!!
 
What if it was Alejandro Avila asking for release and Samantha Runions mom who said please dont release him?

If Alejandro Avila ever gets out I will kill him myself.

Samantha Runnion was abducted 15 minutes from where I live. That ba$tard... oooooohhhhh, I cant even think of the words to describe.....
 
I would like to think that law has not so much to do with sentiment for the dying as it does with practicality. Get them off the tax dole and let their family do all the work that it takes to see death through. Criminal is to ill to be a threat so society is safe. The family is happy. Public opinion gives it a free pass because it makes us feel good about how compassionate we all are. The only ones who might mind are the survivers of the victims. That is a small amount of people by comparison.

What if it was Alejandro Avila asking for release and Samantha Runions mom who said please dont release him?


This is a good point, Glow. Did you see my other question to you?

As far as Samantha Runnion and Avila - the "who" doesn't matter to me and the facts of the crime don't matter to me when looking at this compassionate release issue. Under the law - it doesn't matter either. What matters I think is - are they really dying, do they pose a threat anymore, how does the Pros feel, how do the families of the victims feel, is someone willing to take them - etc...
 
After reading this entire thread it is clear that this isn't an easily answered question. Good points have been made on both sides. Makes me wonder how hard it would be to have to make this decision if I were on the parole board. I am assuming that is who makes the decision? Or in this case, will it be a judge?

I think if I had to cast a vote in this, I would have to invoke both justice and mercy. The question is, mercy for whom? Justice demands that Atkins pay for her crimes. Each time she has asked to be paroled she was in effect, asking that justice be "set aside". Each time that has been denied. I would think that the fact that her victims family members speak out plays a large part in why she keeps getting her parole denied. This time she is asking for "mercy" to over rule justice on the grounds that she is dying. That is a persuasive argument, since all of us comprehend what death means, we feel almost a knee jerk reaction of compassion for her situation. After all, if we cant grant a dying person their final wish what does that say about us?

I think it is important to remove the decision from the context that Atkins is asking it to be looked at from. If she was not terminal, would she be asking this? If she was not terminal would we be so quick to grant her freedom? The obvious answer to both of those questions is no. She didnt ask for this extraordinary "mercy" when her leg was amputated, she only asked now, when she can play that all powerful death card. Society didnt see fit to release her earlier even though it legally could have by paroling her.

So apparently it is the "death" thing that is supposed to trump all previous decisions. Realistically, we are all dying. Susan Atkins just has an approximate date. That is the only thing that separates her from Sharon Tates mother, herself an Atkins victim who has died and Sharons sister who will die too, at some point. All of Atkins victims family members will die. We all will, death is inevitable and renders us all equal in the end. Since that is the case and everyone in this scenario is going to die, not just Atkins, how is justice best served, and what about mercy? It would appear that justice would best be served by giving Atkins the same answer she was getting before she "knew" she was terminal. Bottom line is, she was "terminal" from day one. We all are. The ONLY thing different about her is she has that "approximate" date. Since that means that all of her victims are terminal too, who should get the "mercy"? It would be great if the innocent family members were fine with Atkins being released to die, but they are not. And that is the whole defining point as to which way "mercy" should flow.

It is pretty clear that when you neutralize the feelings that are stirred up by the thought of imminent death, things need to proceed just as they have been. Her impending death doesnt trump her need to serve out the justice of the society she lives in. Mercy in its truest sense would best be applied in making the most innocent feel the best for the longest. That would mean that all of the family members of Atkins victims not see her released under some mistaken guise of compassion. It would be great if the innocent family members were fine with Atkins being released to die, but they are not. And that is the whole defining point as to which way "mercy" should flow.


These innocent people dont want her released and they have a moral and legal right to those feelings. After Atkins is dead the mercy that was extended to them by considering their feelings over a dying murderers will remain.

Hopefully the small amount of justice that Atkins received while taking art classes and writing books will continue right to the end of her life. Then the victims family will have closure. Even if ineptly, justice was served, and mercy was shown to THEM. The loved ones of the victims, who have to keep on living until their own deaths.

Excellent post, Glow.


Snip:"The compassionate release request has been approved by the prison, which conducted an evaluation, and is under corrections department review, Thornton said.

If the department approves, the Board of Parole Hearings and the sentencing court in Los Angeles also must sign off on the request. There is no timeline for a decision to be made......"



http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06/13/manson.atkins/index.html?eref=rss_us
 

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