Taking the veil

[Floh]

Here is a picture of Aishah Azmi and how she appears in the classroom in front of children:

The picture at this link has been changed by the website hosting it. for a pictue of the woman, see second link.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/...l+woman+loses+discrimination+claim/article.do

She did not attend her interview for the job dressed in this manner.

A week ago, during a BBC interview she was asked directly whether she wore the veil at her interview. She hesitated and then replied: "Do I have to answer all the questions?"

When pressed again, she admitted she had not worn the veil but insisted she did not realise she was going to be interviewed by a male.

"I was caught unawares," she said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6068408.stm

much more background in the link directly above.

 

[cappuccina]

...wearing is interfering with her ability to do her job...Her students cannot "read" her face which is essential to her job. If she were sitting in front of a computer all day, or something like that, it would not matter.

Consider this...let's say she were a surgeon and came in like this...would you want someone who is obstrucing their vision to operate on you?

The issue is not her religion or dress per se...She is free to do what she likes. However, if it interferes with the essence of her job duties, then she should not be doing that job...

You wouldn't want a practicing Christian Sceintist to be doing intakes in a medical clinic either....same thing...their religious practices are in direct opposition to their job duties...

 

[Jacobi]

...wearing is interfering with her ability to do her job...Her students cannot "read" her face which is essential to her job. If she were sitting in front of a computer all day, or something like that, it would not matter.

The issue is not her religion or dress per se...She is free to do what she likes. However, if it interferes with the essence of her job duties, then she should not be doing that job...

The bone of contention is exactly that: does the veil interfere in her ability to do her job? I'm not entirely sure that it does and I don't think she was given the chance to prove that point.

 

[2luvmy]

After looking at her picture I think she should remove the veil or wear some type of sheer veil or covering, especially since she did not come to the interview dressed this way. I am not buying the I was not preapred to be interviewed by a man. No one knows who might interview you. In interviews I have done, I was told I was going to be meeting with so-and-so and then invariably, I have ended up getting a tour of the office or running into other people that the interviewer wanted to introduce to me. I have never went for an interview and thought that I was going to be limited to meeting just men or women.

I am an adult student and I would be distracted by this. I would think it would be hard to hear, discern body language and facial features. How are children supposed to interpret the teacher? They would be confused as to if she was angry, giving praise, serious, joking, etc. In this day and age where physical contact between and adult and student must be limited, seeing the face is very important.

Another poster brought up a very good point regarding language. If she has an accent, then seeing the lips is very important. I have two coworkers (one from Yuganda and one from Turkey) that I have worked with for over 5 years. While I can understand them quite well, somethings they say I really have to study their lips and facial expression to understand what they are saying.

 

[Mira]

IF she was veiled when she was hired, she should not be fired because of it. however, if she 'got religion' AFTER she was hired, the students/school has a case.

i do wonder if the difficulty in understanding the teacher was language or the veil.

ETA: apparently she misled the school. unless she actually lived in the school, she had to have removed the veil inside the school. (she had to travel there, veiled against males.)

after seeing the picture of her, i would guess that 11 year olds would be distracted by someone dressed as a ninja LOL. if a student came to school dressed this way he/she would at least be talked to about the innappropriateness of their dress, i would think?

it also said that she was wearing jeans and wedge shoes. iirc moslem women are not 'allowed' to wear pants, either...

 

[Karole28]

I cannot imagine why anyone would think it racist to want to see the face of the person who is instructing you in your classroom.

I think it'd be creepy in the extreme (not to mention distracting) to have to watch a person addressing a classroom clad all in black with their face covered.

As human beings we rely on gauging a person's demeanor by their expressions (check out human recognition studies).

Here in Georgia it's against the law to go out in public with your face covered. (anti KKK laws)

 

[Jacobi]

I am an adult student and I would be distracted by this. I would think it would be hard to hear, discern body language and facial features. How are children supposed to interpret the teacher? They would be confused as to if she was angry, giving praise, serious, joking, etc. In this day and age where physical contact between and adult and student must be limited, seeing the face is very important.

I find Stephen Hawking hard to understand but sometimes the extra effort is worth the trouble. It certainly makes you more focused on what's actually being said. With children, I'm willing to concede that facial expressions may play a more important role in comprehension.

 

[2luvmy]

Here in Georgia it's against the law to go out in public with your face covered. (anti KKK laws)

Interesting. I didn't know that. Just on OT and perhaps silly question....so do they sell ski masks and the like there for cold weather?

 

[Jacobi]

I cannot imagine why anyone would think it racist to want to see the face of the person who is instructing you in your classroom.

I welcome any positive and lively discussion but certain posts went beyond that, e.g. 'I personally think the entire region should be turned into a crator [sic]'.

 

[Karole28]

Interesting. I didn't know that. Just on OT question....so do they sell ski masks and the like there in the winter?

Of course we do. Thankfully, our mild climate makes them pretty much unecessary.

Please see the following for more information.

Article (Southern Poverty Law Center)

 

[2luvmy]

Karole, interesting reading. Ty.

 

[Masterj]

I am also. I am Christian, and I would take it as an insult to my religious beliefs if I were not allowed to wear my crucifix pendant (or any other symbol of my faith) in a country because it's not the belief of the majority. If she wants to be veiled, I don't see why anyone should have a problem with it. It's her religious belief to be veiled.

Thank you Sadie, I agree. If we are following the logic of some that people need to be able to read lips, I guess we better get rid of surgeon masks too. It constantly amazes me that people are so uncomfortable about things they don't know much about. Different doesn't equal bad. Respect and tolerance is a good thing.

 

[Karole28]

Thank you Sadie, I agree. If we are following the logic of some that people need to be able to read lips, I guess we better get rid of surgeon masks too. It constantly amazes me that people are so uncomfortable about things they don't know much about. Different doesn't equal bad. Respect and tolerance is a good thing.

Who said anything about reading lips?

See many surgeons ready for OR on the subway, do you?

And, please don't pull out the "things they don't know much about". I know quite a bit about Islam.

 

[2luvmy]

Thank you Sadie, I agree. If we are following the logic of some that people need to be able to read lips, I guess we better get rid of surgeon masks too. It constantly amazes me that people are so uncomfortable about things they don't know much about. Different doesn't equal bad. Respect and tolerance is a good thing.

Surgeon masks are meant to restrict the spread/inhalation of germs.

A crucifix doesn't inhibit one's ability to communicate.

 

[windovervocalcords]

The bone of contention is exactly that: does the veil interfere in her ability to do her job? I'm not entirely sure that it does and I don't think she was given the chance to prove that point.

I agree with you.

It would take getting used to for most of us. When I traveled to Asia and encountered large areas of Muslim populations it was uncomfortable to either not see women out and about at all or see them covered with veils.

On the other hand I sure have days I would love to hide my face behind a veil. Even a paper bag would do.

 

[Karole28]

On the other hand I sure have days I would love to hide my face behind a veil. Even a paper bag would do.

It works for Michael Jackson!

:laugh:

 

[Karole28]

Let me put this in another light.

You're in an elevator with a guy wearing a motorcycle helmet. He won't take it off. Now, you have to spend only a few minutes alone with him, it's not likely he's intending you any harm, but for that few minutes, wouldn't you feel uncomfortable?

We're biologically hardwired to feel uncomfortable around people if we can't see their faces, if we can't make eye contact, even briefly. We read each other and our intentions this way. Whether we acknowledge it or not.

 

[windovervocalcords]

Let me put this in another light.

You're in an elevator with a guy wearing a motorcycle helmet. He won't take it off. Now, you have to spend only a few minutes alone with him, it's not likely he's intending you any harm, but for that few minutes, wouldn't you feel uncomfortable?

We're biologically hardwired to feel uncomfortable around people if we can't see their faces, if we can't make eye contact, even briefly. We read each other and our intentions this way. Whether we acknowledge it or not.

It is not biological. It is cultural. Some cultures eye contact is too aggressive.

 

[Karole28]

It is not biological. It is cultural. Some cultures eye contact is too aggressive.

I don't agree. I think it's in our genetics. We may be able to deny it, but I believe it's inborn and cannot be completely unlearned.

 

[Karole28]

Look up the word pareidolia. We look for faces in random patterns and it's my opinion that we get very uncomfortable when we look for faces where they ought to be and we don't see them.

I think we can thank our maker for this.