Taking the veil

[wannabesleuthkk]

There are not many, me included, that always make the effort to examine themselves more carefully, before speaking (or spewing). I reacted emotionally in an earlier post and wish a few of those words I could take back now. My basic stance tho is the same,live and let live unless it's a security or health risk. The veil is not only a security issue in a school environment but it must get in the way of effective teaching. IMO she's just in the wrong business. I also wondered if anyone at Mosque requested that she go get that job. (that's the conspiracry theorist in me running amok.)
do with it what you wish....
kk

 

[windovervocalcords]

There are not many, me included, that always make the effort to examine themselves more carefully, before speaking (or spewing). I reacted emotionally in an earlier post and wish a few of those words I could take back now. My basic stance tho is the same,live and let live unless it's a security or health risk. The veil is not only a security issue in a school environment but it must get in the way of effective teaching. IMO she's just in the wrong business. I also wondered if anyone at Mosque requested that she go get that job. (that's the conspiracry theorist in me running amok.)
do with it what you wish....
kk

Given that she said she is willing to not wear the veil in the classroom with the students this appears to lend some credence to the bias question.

 

[wannabesleuthkk]

does the fact that she is willing to remove veil in classroom and therefore remove doubt about the effectiveness of the teaching, does that set ok with you wind that she will still be entering and exiting school with face covered.?
Just curious, not trying to start a fight really, just wanted to know your opinion. Would there still be a security threat? i can't see one, unless someone tried to enter school disguised as her.
Terrorists in drag, not a pretty picture.
just curious..
kk

 

[windovervocalcords]

does the fact that she is willing to remove veil in classroom and therefore remove doubt about the effectiveness of the teaching, does that set ok with you wind that she will still be entering and exiting school with face covered.?
Just curious, not trying to start a fight really, just wanted to know your opinion. Would there still be a security threat? i can't see one, unless someone tried to enter school disguised as her.
Terrorists in drag, not a pretty picture.
just curious..
kk

I think its a weird custom but I would be willing to get over my own prejudice about it if she is a valuable teacher.

The veil custom is alot to ask people to understand. Truly, I can see everyone's point, I personally find it unnerving.

On the other hand, I always lean toward increasing understanding other viewpoints and customs.

The community of Muslims has lots of education to do and should do much more outreach IMO if they want to help all of out out.

 

[jubie]

We identify people by their faces. I think anyone serving as a public figure , like teachers, nurses, doctors, police officers etc etc should be easily identified.

Also, if she can 'teach' then she must be somewhat intelligent and surely should have had the sense to mention she intended to wear a veil, don't you think? Deceit by ommision? I think so. (IMO)


Jubie

 

[jubie]

does the fact that she is willing to remove veil in classroom and therefore remove doubt about the effectiveness of the teaching, does that set ok with you wind that she will still be entering and exiting school with face covered.?
Just curious, not trying to start a fight really, just wanted to know your opinion. Would there still be a security threat? i can't see one, unless someone tried to enter school disguised as her.
Terrorists in drag, not a pretty picture.
just curious..
kk

Like someone mentioned earlier, surely she must have removed the veil prior to her interview, well at what point I wonder? While still at home? Just outside the office? On school grounds or not?

No hidden faces at school at all is what I think should be the rule to follow. Nothing to do with religion, politics or a personal fetish for covering ones face with a pretty floral veil.






Jubie

 

[windovervocalcords]

Like someone mentioned earlier, surely she must have removed the veil prior to her interview, well at what point I wonder? While still at home? Just outside the office? On school grounds or not?

No hidden faces at school at all is what I think should be the rule to follow. Nothing to do with religion, politics or a personal fetish for covering ones face with a pretty floral veil.






Jubie

Once again. This teacher is willing to take the veil off in order to teach children. She otherwise chooses to be veiled.

 

[Karole28]

Once again. This teacher is willing to take the veil off in order to teach children. She otherwise chooses to be veiled.

If she's (or whomever is walking into the school under a black bedsheet) is willing to submit to a full body search and be walked in with security every morning, I say let her go for it.

I'd find it more than disturbing to discover you can walk into any school anywhere being completely concealed.

 

[reb]

i don't understand. the point of being at school is to teach children. so is she agreeing to take off her veil at her job, or not?
it's the year 2006, not the year 6. if a man sees her face and just can't control himself and rapes her, they will (or should) be prosecuted. (unless, she's in the middle east-- in which case she would probably get stoned to death for tempting the man. which leads to the obvious question-- why on earth would you want to go out of your way to encourage such a backwards belief anyway, or import it out of the mideast- especially when you're not even FROM there...?!)
and it's a silly rule to begin with-- men will rape you if they really want to, burqua or no burqua. to suggest that a woman is more elevated or respected in their culture because she has a black bag over her head, is absurd.

 

[Nova]

Once again. This teacher is willing to take the veil off in order to teach children. She otherwise chooses to be veiled.

I guess that makes sense. I assume that even the strictest Muslim women are often unveiled around their children and the children of others.

But frankly, if the school has someone at the entrance making sure that only those who belong there get in, then I think she can remove her veil at the entrance to the school.

If the school has fingerprint recognition equipment at the entrance, then everyone would have to remove his or her gloves at that point.

 

[Nova]

There are not many, me included, that always make the effort to examine themselves more carefully, before speaking (or spewing).

Nor I, wanna. Nicely put.

I think a lot of us treat WS as the "backyard fence." We all say things while chatting with friends that we wouldn't say in a carefully considered position paper.

 

[BarnGoddess]

I've been reading this thread for some time. We in the US have been called "Ugly Americans" when we go abroad. If I traveled anywhere, I tried my best to give the image of a polite person. I never wore shorts on city streets of another country or was loud or rude. I said please and thank you and did my best to attempt at least a little of the language. In other words, "when in Rome".

Arrogance of immigrants is sometimes puzzling. Refusal to obey our laws, such as showing your face to have your driver's license picture taken, seem to bother us. Since we have available world-wide instant information, we can see that some Islamic countries allow women to walk with their faces uncovered, yet they are still dressed covered head to toe.

Mmmmmm, do I smell a little compromise here? I remember my friends going to Catholic school. Back then the nuns were dressed similarly. Head to toe, but you knew when Sister Mary was upset. You could see it on her face.

Couldn't we see her face in the classroom? I really don't understand because I assume this is an Anglican School, not a public school. (Yes, I know that in England private schools are called "public".

 

[Nova]

Couldn't we see her face in the classroom? I really don't understand because I assume this is an Anglican School, not a public school. (Yes, I know that in England private schools are called "public".

BG, if I understand the posts here, the woman in question is willing to remove her veil in class. The issue appears to be getting to and from class. A lot of people feel entering a school (or other sensitive area) completely veiled is a security issue.

 

[windovervocalcords]

BG, if I understand the posts here, the woman in question is willing to remove her veil in class. The issue appears to be getting to and from class. A lot of people feel entering a school (or other sensitive area) completely veiled is a security issue.

Its a security issue primarily because she is wearing a veil or that she is a Muslim with a veil?

I would think if she works and teaches there she is known to whoever opens the door or she has her own key.

Perhaps, no one here has ever had the experience of being harassed because we all, more or less, fit "acceptable" visual standards.

IMO the uproar is as much about this woman being a particular kind of Muslim as anything else.

When you see people who are very different--I remember traveling and seeing some old fashioned dressed large families with unusal headresses it was disarming. It takes some getting used to.

It's good that someone comes along and "pushes the envelope". A veil is more extreme than the scarf.

The same kind of uproar occured with merely the head scarf in France, remember?

 

[Nova]

Its a security issue primarily because she is wearing a veil or that she is a Muslim with a veil?

I would think if she works and teaches there she is known to whoever opens the door or she has her own key.

If the issue is visual identification, then the issue is a veil that prevents it. And whether someone "knows" her by sight is precisely the point; if that someone only sees her when she is veiled, then that someone may well assume anyone with a veil is she. And that's what worries people.

But while we on the subject, there is a reason why some people are concerned about some Muslims. If middle-aged, white gay men start blowing up buildings, then I will expect a little extra scrutiny myself. I certainly realize that only a small faction of Muslims are terrorists and I am not saying Muslims in general should be mistreated.

On the other hand - and since a significant percentage of terrorism at the moment is committed by Muslims - a little extra awareness is not an irrational reaction.

And I think "concealing one's appearance" - whether with a burka, a ski mask, or a Halloween costume - can reasonably be forbidden in certain circumstances.

I've pretty much made up my mind that she should not be allowed to enter the school veiled. A more difficult question is whether veils should be allowed in public at all, at least in Western societies where security cameras are ubiquitous. Can't wait until the ACLU and the Far Right paranoid types come together on that issue.

 

[Karole28]

If the issue is visual identification, then the issue is a veil that prevents it. And whether someone "knows" her by sight is precisely the point; if that someone only sees her when she is veiled, then that someone may well assume anyone with a veil is she. And that's what worries people.

But while we on the subject, there is a reason why some people are concerned about some Muslims. If middle-aged, white gay men start blowing up buildings, then I will expect a little extra scrutiny myself. I certainly realize that only a small faction of Muslims are terrorists and I am not saying Muslims in general should be mistreated.

On the other hand - and since a significant percentage of terrorism at the moment is committed by Muslims - a little extra awareness is not an irrational reaction.

And I think "concealing one's appearance" - whether with a burka, a ski mask, or a Halloween costume - can reasonably be forbidden in certain circumstances.

I could not agree more with this. I understand that W.O.V. is sympathetic to what (s)he believes is the persecution of this religion, however I would like to point out that in the U.S. crimes against Muslims are outweighed 7/1 by crimes against Jews. (religious persecution, indeed)

However, religion aside, I don't feel that anyone who is concealing their identity (regardless of religious persuasion) should be allowed in schools. Period.

 

[Floh]

BG, if I understand the posts here, the woman in question is willing to remove her veil in class. The issue appears to be getting to and from class. A lot of people feel entering a school (or other sensitive area) completely veiled is a security issue.

No she is NOT willing to remove her veil whilst assistant-teaching in the classroom.

that is the point.

she is a teaching assistant, not a teacher. the links explain her job position.

 

[Floh]

THE HEAD of Britain's race relations watchdog has urged veil row teaching assistant Aishah Azmi to drop her discrimination fight against council bosses in Kirklees.

Trevor Phillips said Mrs Azmi would be "doing the nation a favour" by abandoning the case she launched after being suspended for refusing to remove her veil during lessons.
Mr Phillips also admitted he fears the debate sparked by the case could eventually turn ugly – and might even lead to race riots of the kind which rocked towns and cities across the North in 2001. His comments came amid reports that Bradford Council is preparing to draw up guidelines advising Muslim women not to wear veils in the city's schools because of potential communication problems.

http://www.leedstoday.net/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=39&ArticleID=1837167

 

[Floh]

City schools 'should ban veils'

Muslim girls could be asked not to wear veils in the classroom under new plans.
Bradford City Council is drawing up guidelines stating that pupils and staff should not wear veils in lessons.
It said veils could cause problems with communication, identifying pupils and health and safety. However, the final decision would lie with the school.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/bradford/6079798.stm

I believe they should ban veils, for reasons i have already given during this thread.

Dr Abdul Bary Mailk, president of the Bradford and Leeds Ahmadiyya Muslim Association, said wearing the full face veil, or niqab, was not an obligation under Islam.

 

[Karole28]

In a related note to Floh's post:

From article linked below:
LONDON - The heated debate over veils that cover the faces of some British Muslim women is growing ugly and could trigger riots, the head of Britain's race relations watchdog warned on Sunday.


Britons are becoming increasingly polarized along racial and religious lines, and if they don't talk respectfully about their differences, tensions could fuel unrest, Commission for Racial Equality chairman Trevor Phillips wrote in The Sunday Times newspaper.

In an interview with British Broadcasting Corp. television, he said he didn't want Britain to suffer the kind of violence that exploded in the deprived suburbs of Paris a year ago, when disaffected young people, many from immigrant backgrounds, rioted for three weeks.

He warned there could also be a repeat of the rioting in several northern English towns in 2001 caused by racial tensions between white and mainly Muslim south Asian youths.

"Only this time the conflict would be much worse," Phillips wrote in the Times.

Muhammad Abdul Bari, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, said some violent attacks already have occurred against Muslims in the country. He said some women's veils have been forcibly pulled off, mosques set on fire and Muslims beaten by gangs of men.


link to article

ed: Why aren't we seeing more evidence of the "violent attacks against Muslims"? And why are the French rioters referred to innocently as "disaffected young people"?