Taking the veil

[windovervocalcords]

Truthfully, I don't. But, I'm familiar with zealots who change (or get) religion later in their lives. And, I also know that since this is not a Koran(nic) law, it's something she's heard somewhere and adopted. (could be her mosque, who knows?) And, since I know she had no qualms attending the interview without it, (thinking a male would not be present, why???) I'm assuming she's using the veil to a) draw sympathetic attention to her opressed religion. and b) to draw attention to herself personally, perhaps to elevate herself in her mosque as a mini-martyr.

Of course, these are my opinions.

Now are you going to answer my Koresh question? I assume you're as horrified as I am about someone being burned alive for their religious beliefs. Correct?
How far does your tolerance extend?

I posted a link to an article that represents a more complex view of the veil which you have ignored. Could it be because it makes sense and counters your opinion?

Is ignoreance bliss?

 

[Karole28]

I posted a link to an article that represents a more complex view of the veil which you have ignored. Could it be because it makes sense and counters your opinion?

Is ignoreance bliss?

Oh wow. Look at you, almost making a pun.

No, I read it. And summarily decided it not worth commenting on. However, I did have it in mind when I asked you about your tolerance for David Koresh.

Edited to add: I've made my opinions on posting articles very well known. I state opinions occasionally backed up with articles. Posting other people's opinions is really quite useless.

 

[Nova]

i'm interested in why other than security you think like you do.

i'm in agreement in the same way i take off my ski mask in cold weather while riding my bike and park up to go into shops.

it's simply an unfriendly and agressive thing to do to wear a face cover while interacting with people when one can help it not to do so.

Floh, I agree with other posters who have questioned the effectiveness of a veiled teacher. For better or worse, in Western societies, children are accustomed to getting considerable info from facial expressions. To me, that "trumps" the teacher's right to live in the Middles Ages.

I also think it's bad for women. Period. We ban other religious practices (polygamy, honor killing, forced marriages) at least in part because they discriminate against women. I have no problem using that standard here.

 

[Nova]

if it leads to a major war between east & west, then so be it-- because that's been coming for a long time. and may the best man win.

"If"?

 

[windovervocalcords]

"If"?

Have fun with your war. I'm not coming.

 

[Nova]

I posted a link to an article that represents a more complex view of the veil which you have ignored. Could it be because it makes sense and counters your opinion?

Is ignoreance bliss?

Wind, I did read the link and I am quite familiar with Said's important work. I not only concede but assume that a woman's subjective relationship with her veil will be complex.

I also understand that practitioners of S&M or B&D have complex, subjective experiences of their practices. But if a teacher - particularly a female teacher - insisted on wearing her ball-gag in the classroom, I'd say it's time to draw the line.

A veiled woman has complex implications for Western students as well. The students are more important.

 

[Nova]

Have fun with your war. I'm not coming.

"My" war. Come on, wind, you know me better than that. I was merely acknowledging the obvious that the war has commenced. I wasn't assigning blame or taking sides.

 

[Karole28]

Wind, I did read the link and I am quite familiar with Said's important work. I not only concede but assume that a woman's subjective relationship with her veil will be complex.

I also understand that practitioners of S&M or B&D have complex, subjective experiences of their practices. But if a teacher - particularly a female teacher - insisted on wearing her ball-gag in the classroom, I'd say it's time to draw the line.

Wonderful analogy. I'd also say she's doing it to draw attention to herself.

Also, to add to your list of banned religious practices, genital mutilation is important in some cultures. We do not have to accept it out of deference to those cultures.

Actually, I think some "white guilt" is in play here. It's not a horrible reason, I just think we need to be honest about it.

 

[windovervocalcords]

"My" war. Come on, wind, you know me better than that. I was merely acknowledging the obvious that the war has commenced. I wasn't assigning blame or taking sides.

Nothing personal. Should have said "the" war.

 

[Nova]

Wonderful analogy. I'd also say she's doing it to draw attention to herself.

Also, to add to your list of banned religious practices, genital mutilation is important in some cultures. We do not have to accept it out of deference to those cultures.

Actually, I think some "white guilt" is in play here. It's not a horrible reason, I just think we need to be honest about it.

Maybe some "white guilt." But I think a lot of us are just understandably slow to condemn practices we know we don't fully understand. And Western societies in general are struggling to balance a number of noble aims: individual freedom, religious freedom, gender equality, physical security, etc.

 

[windovervocalcords]

Wind, I did read the link and I am quite familiar with Said's important work. I not only concede but assume that a woman's subjective relationship with her veil will be complex.

I also understand that practitioners of S&M or B&D have complex, subjective experiences of their practices. But if a teacher - particularly a female teacher - insisted on wearing her ball-gag in the classroom, I'd say it's time to draw the line.

A veiled woman has complex implications for Western students as well. The students are more important.

The veil is quite extreme and difficult for me to understand or feel comfortable with. At the same time, when I first saw turbaned Sikh's it was uncomfortable until I interacted with and spoke to a few and had positive experiences.

Over time, I'd like to think that as a society, things would be peaceful and kind enough eventually for us to all relax about such unusual differences in custom as we encounter them in a pluralistic multi-cultural society.

The veil has many meanings. It is an interesting symbol.

Culturally it's is a hard sell for me as a woman. I mentioned previously, when I traveled to Asia I encountered this phenomena and found it quite uncomfortable. It seemed to make women "disappear" or be "non-entities". But, this is just my perception.

One of my friends wanted to go out at night to some clubs and our guide informed her he would not be able to take her unless she wore a veil.

That sounded creepy to me. At least the Muslim women were out and about. I did not see the Hindu women out where the men were. They stayed at home unless they were of a high caste.

 

[Nova]

Culturally it's is a hard sell for me as a woman. I mentioned previously, when I traveled to Asia I encountered this phenomena and found it quite uncomfortable. It seemed to make women "disappear" or be "non-entities". But, this is just my perception.

It's a hard sell for me as a man, too. (Obviously.)

But I don't agree that it is "just your perception" that veils make women "disappear" or be "non-entities."

I realize individual women may feel differently, but it takes quite a leap of post-modern critical thinking to conclude a veil is anything other than an attempt to hide certain aspects of females.

Haven't we worked long and hard in Western cultures to teach people that a woman is not "at fault" if she is attacked because she is desirable? That women, beautiful or no, are not the "cause" of evil desires? That everyone is responsible for his own physical aggression, which can't be blamed on the appearance of others?

What do we now say to children when their teacher hides her face from all adult males (regardless of her subjective reasoning)?

When men start wearing the veil, too, then perhaps we should revisit the subject.

I hope it's obvious that the issue here is not, to me, whether the woman's veil makes me personally "uncomfortable." (Frankly, I'm sure I could get used to it.)

 

[windovervocalcords]

It's a hard sell for me as a man, too. (Obviously.)

But I don't agree that it is "just your perception" that veils make women "disappear" or be "non-entities."

I realize individual women may feel differently, but it takes quite a leap of post-modern critical thinking to conclude a veil is anything other than an attempt to hide certain aspects of females.

Haven't we worked long and hard in Western cultures to teach people that a woman is not "at fault" if she is attacked because she is desirable? That women, beautiful or no, are not the "cause" of evil desires? That everyone is responsible for his own physical aggression, which can't be blamed on the appearance of others?

What do we now say to children when their teacher hides her face from all adult males (regardless of her subjective reasoning)?

When men start wearing the veil, too, then perhaps we should revisit the subject.

I hope it's obvious that the issue here is not, to me, whether the woman's veil makes me personally "uncomfortable." (Frankly, I'm sure I could get used to it.)

I always appreciate your thoughtful posts, Nova.

At the same time, there are so many of these, "outraged" incidents regarding Muslims interacting in Western society lately that I think it is worth a look at in more depth. (cartoons, cabbies, Pope, veil)

I work in an environment where NO expression of religion is permitted in one's personal workspace. Veils are really stretching the issue. It would simply not be permitted at my workplace. A veiled individual would not get the job and would not keep the job if the person showed up on any other day than Halloween with a veil. (it sounds like a great costume this year, so easy to make)

What is the context? There is more to the story IMO.

I still need more information. I would love to hear how these women defend the veil apart from its obvious anti-woman or anti-feminism appearance.

If I just shut them down, and don't invite dialogue then I suppose I can comfort myself at making the veiled "tow the line" since I am in a majority but I will have missed an opportunity.

Likewise, how do parents teach children about the human beings under the veils if the veiled aren't allowed to be there and speak about it?

 

[Maral]

I always appreciate your thoughtful posts, Nova.

At the same time, there are so many of these, "outraged" incidents regarding Muslims interacting in Western society lately that I think it is worth a look at in more depth. (cartoons, cabbies, Pope, veil)

I work in an environment where NO expression of religion is permitted in one's personal workspace. Veils are really stretching the issue. It would simply not be permitted at my workplace. A veiled individual would not get the job and would not keep the job if the person showed up on any other day than Halloween with a veil. (it sounds like a great costume this year, so easy to make)

What is the context? There is more to the story IMO.

I still need more information. I would love to hear how these women defend the veil apart from its obvious anti-woman or anti-feminism appearance.

If I just shut them down, and don't invite dialogue then I suppose I can comfort myself at making the veiled "tow the line" since I am in a majority but I will have missed an opportunity.

Likewise, how do parents teach children about the human beings under the veils if the veiled aren't allowed to be there and speak about it?

Wind, I found this article interesting. How I Came To Love The Veil

 

[windovervocalcords]

Wind, I found this article interesting. How I Came To Love The Veil

Very interesting read, Maral. Thank you.

"With her unconventional approach to standup, Hami has caused quite a stir in the local comedy scene. Stash (he goes by only one name), who has booked Hami repeatedly for his comedy show at the All Asia Cafe in Cambridge, Massachusetts calls her "one of the best comics in the whole Cambridge scene."

The key to Hami's appeal, says Stash, is "tension and release. She puts on the clothing, a great big black scarf over her head -- the whole outfit, the whole nine yards. No one knows what to expect."

A female Muslim stand-up comic? What is she going to talk about? This sets up the tension. Then Hami opens her mouth and breaks the tension with her funny stories and witty punch lines. Says Stash: "Here is this comic up there dressed as a woman from the Middle East, which has seemed inaccessible to us, now suddenly revealing an American-style comedy, which is a set up and a twist in itself."

Born in the province of Mazandaran in northern Iran, Hami came to the United States in 1978, when she was five-years old. The daughter of traditional Iranian professionals (her father has a PhD in computer science and her mother is a dentist), Hami grew up in a predominantly White suburb of Boston. Her parents had high expectations, urging her to become a doctor, get married, and have children. However, Hami says, "That was never my dream for myself."
http://www.iranian.com/Satire/2003/March/Comic/

 

[windovervocalcords]

Nowadays, some people are astonished daily by seing women wearing veils. Most have an idea that the veil is oppressive, and many protest loudly and publicly on behalf of these women. One thing that these officious persons have in common is usually that they have never found it necessary to ask the women themselves, not to speak of making themselves acquainted with the religious and cultural background of the veil. Even so, they are busy imposing on others their personal opinions as to what is oppressive. If one asks the women behind the veils, the story is quite different.

The orthodox Muslim woman does not perceive the veil as inhibiting or oppresive. Quite the contrary. The veil guarantees her the full respect of the surroundings, and thus must be considered a privilege rather than a burden. »The dignity of the wife or the daughters, or the dignity of any Muslim woman, for that matter, must be respected and protected«, writes Momina Abdullah on the Internet.

The scarf contributes to creating equality between man and woman. He does not see her only as a sex symbol«, says Batool. »When a man looks at a woman wearing a scarf it is because he is interested in her personality and the way she thinks instead of her appearance«, her sister complements. »A woman who covers herself is hiding her sexual charm, and yet allows her womanliness to remain visible«, writes Mominah Abdullah.
http://www.faklen.dk/en/the_torch/veil.shtml

 

[reb]

wow- great conversation this morning!

windover-- i have read all that stuff from the muslim women who choose to cover themselves, about how they feel liberated, it's empowering and whatnot. but what none of them will address,, is the whole point- WHY a woman has to be covered to feel like an equal, empowered, safe, respected. the very essence of that is just WRONG on every level... it says that if women put a giant black bag over themselves- and no one can see them, they 'guarantee the full respect of their surroundings'.. so that makes it very clear that those who DO choose to show themselves to the public are NOT worthy of respect, are NOT equals, and deserve to be treated as sex objects. which, of course, is an absurd concept in an evolved modern society. it says, again, that men do not bear any of the burden of responsbility for their own sexual urges & impulses, and they have no obligation to try to evolve and treat women like human beings.

and last time i checked, a man can certainly be interested in a woman's personality more than (or along with, hopefully!) her looks without her having to wrap herself up and hide inside a giant black sheet!

 

[Karole28]

<snip>so that makes it very clear that those who DO choose to show themselves to the public are NOT worthy of respect, are NOT equals, and deserve to be treated as sex objects. which, of course, is an absurd concept in an evolved modern society. it says, again, that men do not bear any of the burden of responsbility for their own sexual urges & impulses, and they have no obligation to try to evolve and treat women like human beings.

I could never have said it so well. Amen, etc.

 

[Karole28]

While we're on the subject....


Muslim leader blames women for sex attacks
Richard Kerbaj
October 26, 2006
THE nation's most senior Muslim cleric has blamed immodestly dressed women who don't wear Islamic headdress for being preyed on by men and likened them to abandoned "meat" that attracts voracious animals.
In a Ramadan sermon that has outraged Muslim women leaders, Sydney-based Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali also alluded to the infamous Sydney gang rapes, suggesting the attackers were not entirely to blame.

While not specifically referring to the rapes, brutal attacks on four women for which a group of young Lebanese men received long jail sentences, Sheik Hilali said there were women who "sway suggestively" and wore make-up and immodest dress ... "and then you get a judge without mercy (rahma) and gives you 65 years".

"But the problem, but the problem all began with who?" he asked.

The leader of the 2000 rapes in Sydney's southwest, Bilal Skaf, a Muslim, was initially sentenced to 55 years' jail, but later had the sentence reduced on appeal.

In the religious address on adultery to about 500 worshippers in Sydney last month, Sheik Hilali said: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?

"The uncovered meat is the problem."

The sheik then said: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."



link to article

 

[windovervocalcords]

wow- great conversation this morning!

windover-- i have read all that stuff from the muslim women who choose to cover themselves, about how they feel liberated, it's empowering and whatnot. but what none of them will address,, is the whole point- WHY a woman has to be covered to feel like an equal, empowered, safe, respected. the very essence of that is just WRONG on every level... it says that if women put a giant black bag over themselves- and no one can see them, they 'guarantee the full respect of their surroundings'.. so that makes it very clear that those who DO choose to show themselves to the public are NOT worthy of respect, are NOT equals, and deserve to be treated as sex objects. which, of course, is an absurd concept in an evolved modern society. it says, again, that men do not bear any of the burden of responsbility for their own sexual urges & impulses, and they have no obligation to try to evolve and treat women like human beings.

and last time i checked, a man can certainly be interested in a woman's personality more than (or along with, hopefully!) her looks without her having to wrap herself up and hide inside a giant black sheet!

You make a number of good points Reb. I have similar questions I would ask Muslim women about the same things you mention.

What I am aware of with these discussions is how some of us continually use these questions as generally negative comments or suspicions regarding Muslims when many of us don't know Muslim culture very well.

Always best to ask the source. I have no Muslims in my rural community so no opportunity for dialogue. Cultural diversity is one of the things I miss living in the boonies.