Just one of so many unanswered questions about this case. One man is presently rotting in prison for the crime, although I suspect many others involved are roasting in hell.
"Tape Recorder Man"
- Thread starter Jeana (DP)
- Start date
-
GUILTY Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #220- Latest: girlhasnoname
-
I agree. Although the Tape Recorder Man (TRM) was never officially identified, he was a central character to the case.
Many people claiming to have seen him, came forward after his sketch and story was released to the media. Most of them said that they had seen him on earlier occasions, some said at Wheaton Plaza, but most sightings were at other area shopping centers. None knew his name or identity.
On 1 April 1975, a young man approached a Wheaton Plaza Security Officer claiming to have seen TRM on the day the girls went missing. He wanted to collect a reward that was offered for information.
That individual was Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr.
While the TRM sketch was widely disseminated and discussed in the media, another sketch, drawn by the same police artist, was withheld from the public for some 40 years. That other sketch was of a younger man with long hair.
The Long Haired Man (LHM) sketch was based on the story told by a young girl to police that she had seen him following and talking to Sheila and Katherine the day they disappeared.
Lloyd Welch was questioned by Montgomery County Police on 1 April 1975. He gave them his name and address in hopes of collecting the reward, and was dismissed by them.
In 2014, in the course of a cold case review, Welch's name was found in the files and he was located at a Delaware prison. Initially questioned about his knowledge of potential suspect Raymond Mileski, he soon became a suspect himself in the abduction and murder of the Lyon Sisters. Investigators believe that Welch was the LHM seen with the girls that fateful day.
Lloyd Welch subsequently pled guilty to abducting and murdering both girls, and is serving consecutive life sentences. But their bodies have never been found.
It is very likely that Welch was not the lone perpetrator.
Last edited:
The identity of the boy who provided Montgomery County Police sketch artist Davis Morton with the information and description of the Tape Recorder Man (TRM) was never released by MCP or the news media.
The boy, referred to in the media as "Little Jimmy", was 12 years old in March 1975 when he claimed to have seen the Lyon Sisters talking to TRM near the Orange Bowl pizza restaurant.
"Jimmy" was not his real name, but one given to him by the Washington TV and Newspaper reporters. A few years ago, an associate located him, called him, and asked a number of questions. He was reluctant at first to talk but did confirm that he remembered TRM and his interviews with MCP and the news media.
Unfortunately, his memory of specifics did not exactly match what was reported back in 1975. He recalled clearly riding his bike along with a close friend to Wheaton Plaza that day. He also recalled seeing TRM near an escalator or stairway but did not mention the Orange Bowl.
When the sketch was released to the media, nearly 15 other people called in to say that they had seen the same man with his tape recorder 2 or 3 days earlier at both the Iverson and Marlow Heights Malls (adjacent shopping centers) in Prince Georges County. In fact, these people were so sure that it was the same man, based on the picture and description, that Davis Morton took their suggestions for slight changes in the mouth area of his drawing and incorporated them in his second version of the sketch.
Other than Little Jimmy and his friend, investigators could not find anyone else who remembered seeing TRM on Tuesday, 25 March 1975 at Wheaton Plaza. When police showed the TRM sketch (prior to media release) to various store clerks and personnel, only three said that they thought they saw him there - but all said separately that they had seen him the day before (24 March).
At least two other people stated that they had seen a man who resembled the TRM sketch talking to children at Wheaton Plaza a couple of weeks before the Lyon Sisters went missing. He was also reportedly seen at other Malls in Prince Georges County on previous occasions. These were Bowie Mall, Iverson Mall and White Oak Mall. But after 25 March 1975, all sightings stopped.
It is possibly significant that Iverson Mall and Marlow Heights Shopping Center where 15 persons reported seeing a TRM the previous weekend are very close to the cabinet workshop of Raymond Mileski, and also not far from his residence.
In the days that followed release of the TRM sketch, the papers reported that MCP had interviewed about 3 men in Prince Georges County but had not developed them as suspects at that date.
Raymond Mileski had a house or building of some sort that he rented to work on kitchen cabinets, and this was located somewhere in the vicinity of Beech Road and Route 5, only a mile south of Iverson Mall. His residence was on Suitland Road, to the east of Beech Road and due north of the entrance to Andrews Air Force Base. There is much more information about Raymond Mileski in the thread titled "Potential Suspects" in the missing Lyon Sisters topic area.
Mileski was convicted and sentenced to prison for the murder of his wife and son in 1977. Of all the possible suspects in the Lyon case, only Mileski and Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr. admitted to having knowledge of the girls' abduction and murder. Mileski died in prison, but in 2013, when reviewing the case file, MCP detectives decided to locate Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr. who had approached a Wheaton Plaza security guard on 1 April 1975 stating that he had seen someone who resembled the TRM sketch abducting the girls. Welch hoped to claim a reward being offered. He gave his information, including his name and address and was sent away by MCP officers.
In 2013, MCP Cold Case Detectives at first wanted to locate and question Welch about Raymond Mileski - whether he knew him or could identify him as the TRM. They found that Welch was incarcerated in a Delaware prison and began a series of interviews with him, which eventually led to him being identified as a suspect and to his confessing to murdering Sheila and Katherine Lyon.
So, in a sense, the TRM sketch by Davis Morton did eventually lead to a resolution in the case. But who was the TRM? And how did he factor into the case? Was he working with Welch?
Besides the Tape Recorder Man (TRM) sketch, Davis Morton also made another separate sketch of an unknown young Long-Haired Man (LHM) who had been described by a young girl as following and watching Sheila and Katherine on 25 March 1975 at Wheaton Plaza.
While the TRM sketch was given wide dissemination to the News outlets and seen in all the area newspapers and on all the TV channels, the LHM sketch was kept secret. It may have been showed to potential witnesses on a one-to-one basis, but it was never released to the media.
In 2014, when the Montgomery County Police called a big news conference to announce the identification of a suspect in the case (Welch), most of the TV stations in anticipation were showing the old TRM sketch, along with 1975 footage and photos of the Lyon sisters. Then, at a point near the end of their presentation, MCP unveiled a photo of Welch taken in 1977 alongside a large poster of the LHM sketch. From that point on, they made no further mention of the TRM.
The boy, referred to in the media as "Little Jimmy", was 12 years old in March 1975 when he claimed to have seen the Lyon Sisters talking to TRM near the Orange Bowl pizza restaurant.
"Jimmy" was not his real name, but one given to him by the Washington TV and Newspaper reporters. A few years ago, an associate located him, called him, and asked a number of questions. He was reluctant at first to talk but did confirm that he remembered TRM and his interviews with MCP and the news media.
Unfortunately, his memory of specifics did not exactly match what was reported back in 1975. He recalled clearly riding his bike along with a close friend to Wheaton Plaza that day. He also recalled seeing TRM near an escalator or stairway but did not mention the Orange Bowl.
When the sketch was released to the media, nearly 15 other people called in to say that they had seen the same man with his tape recorder 2 or 3 days earlier at both the Iverson and Marlow Heights Malls (adjacent shopping centers) in Prince Georges County. In fact, these people were so sure that it was the same man, based on the picture and description, that Davis Morton took their suggestions for slight changes in the mouth area of his drawing and incorporated them in his second version of the sketch.
Other than Little Jimmy and his friend, investigators could not find anyone else who remembered seeing TRM on Tuesday, 25 March 1975 at Wheaton Plaza. When police showed the TRM sketch (prior to media release) to various store clerks and personnel, only three said that they thought they saw him there - but all said separately that they had seen him the day before (24 March).
At least two other people stated that they had seen a man who resembled the TRM sketch talking to children at Wheaton Plaza a couple of weeks before the Lyon Sisters went missing. He was also reportedly seen at other Malls in Prince Georges County on previous occasions. These were Bowie Mall, Iverson Mall and White Oak Mall. But after 25 March 1975, all sightings stopped.
It is possibly significant that Iverson Mall and Marlow Heights Shopping Center where 15 persons reported seeing a TRM the previous weekend are very close to the cabinet workshop of Raymond Mileski, and also not far from his residence.
In the days that followed release of the TRM sketch, the papers reported that MCP had interviewed about 3 men in Prince Georges County but had not developed them as suspects at that date.
Raymond Mileski had a house or building of some sort that he rented to work on kitchen cabinets, and this was located somewhere in the vicinity of Beech Road and Route 5, only a mile south of Iverson Mall. His residence was on Suitland Road, to the east of Beech Road and due north of the entrance to Andrews Air Force Base. There is much more information about Raymond Mileski in the thread titled "Potential Suspects" in the missing Lyon Sisters topic area.
Mileski was convicted and sentenced to prison for the murder of his wife and son in 1977. Of all the possible suspects in the Lyon case, only Mileski and Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr. admitted to having knowledge of the girls' abduction and murder. Mileski died in prison, but in 2013, when reviewing the case file, MCP detectives decided to locate Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr. who had approached a Wheaton Plaza security guard on 1 April 1975 stating that he had seen someone who resembled the TRM sketch abducting the girls. Welch hoped to claim a reward being offered. He gave his information, including his name and address and was sent away by MCP officers.
In 2013, MCP Cold Case Detectives at first wanted to locate and question Welch about Raymond Mileski - whether he knew him or could identify him as the TRM. They found that Welch was incarcerated in a Delaware prison and began a series of interviews with him, which eventually led to him being identified as a suspect and to his confessing to murdering Sheila and Katherine Lyon.
So, in a sense, the TRM sketch by Davis Morton did eventually lead to a resolution in the case. But who was the TRM? And how did he factor into the case? Was he working with Welch?
Besides the Tape Recorder Man (TRM) sketch, Davis Morton also made another separate sketch of an unknown young Long-Haired Man (LHM) who had been described by a young girl as following and watching Sheila and Katherine on 25 March 1975 at Wheaton Plaza.
While the TRM sketch was given wide dissemination to the News outlets and seen in all the area newspapers and on all the TV channels, the LHM sketch was kept secret. It may have been showed to potential witnesses on a one-to-one basis, but it was never released to the media.
In 2014, when the Montgomery County Police called a big news conference to announce the identification of a suspect in the case (Welch), most of the TV stations in anticipation were showing the old TRM sketch, along with 1975 footage and photos of the Lyon sisters. Then, at a point near the end of their presentation, MCP unveiled a photo of Welch taken in 1977 alongside a large poster of the LHM sketch. From that point on, they made no further mention of the TRM.
Last edited:
IMO, This TRM sketch comparison which seems to look like Ray Mileski
This TRM sketch which seems to look like an Engelking relative. The man below
was too young but posted for comparison. wasn't there a Engelking in his 50's in 1975?
Also authorities in 1975 were told by the Manassas citizen that the driver of the car (with two girls in the back), a white-haired man in his fifties, resembled a composite sketch last week of a man believed to have talked to the girls shortly before they disappeared. The witness said when he tried to get a closer look, the car sped off through a red light.
Then add this conversation below from Watch Who Killed the Lyon Sisters? Time 01:25:13
Kimberly: Mother, it was found up on Lizzie's property.
Patty Welch: What was found?
Kimberly: The grave site
Patty Welch: It's NOT their grave sites....
How does she know its not their grave sites? Where are Lyon Sisters remains buried?
This TRM sketch which seems to look like an Engelking relative. The man below
was too young but posted for comparison. wasn't there a Engelking in his 50's in 1975?
Also authorities in 1975 were told by the Manassas citizen that the driver of the car (with two girls in the back), a white-haired man in his fifties, resembled a composite sketch last week of a man believed to have talked to the girls shortly before they disappeared. The witness said when he tried to get a closer look, the car sped off through a red light.
Then add this conversation below from Watch Who Killed the Lyon Sisters? Time 01:25:13
Kimberly: Mother, it was found up on Lizzie's property.
Patty Welch: What was found?
Kimberly: The grave site
Patty Welch: It's NOT their grave sites....
How does she know its not their grave sites? Where are Lyon Sisters remains buried?
Close resemblance between TRM sketch and Ray Mileski.
Indeed - how would Patty know for certain where the Lyon sisters are or are not buried?
In about 1981, when Mileski was in prison serving a life sentence for murdering his wife and son, Montgomery County Police dug holes in the back yard of his Suitland Road home looking for signs of graves. It was reported that they found only bird bones.
Another nearby area considered was the area near Andrew Jackson Middle School, which at the time was a lot of open fields and woods. It is now mostly developed with apartment buildings.
The former home of Edna Welch on Baltimore Ave. Hyattsville, MD might be another place to look for graves. Police searched the basement of that house after Lloyd Lee Welch claimed to have imprisoned one or both girls there in March 1975.
Subject: Tape Recorder Man
In LLW Jr.'s first statement, marked LIED, LLW Jr. said to investigators that "the man he saw leaving with the girls "walked with a little limp." What makes his lies more believable is to weave in threads of truth. IF investigators can sort out what the "truth" is. I suggest that group knew Ray Mileski was tape recording in the first place, talking to young girls, for whatever his devious purposes were, without participating in the Lyon Sisters abduction.
(Nothing illegal about recording a kid's voice under voluntarily permission)
Perhaps a group centered around LLW Jr.planned and executed this 75' abduction while LLW Jr. effectively cast the blame elsewhere. Why did R.Mileski have John Lyon's phone number at his home? Why did Raymond Mileski brazenly went out of his way to make his appearance as TRM
at various malls with his tape recorder knowing himself that he walked with a 'easy to spot' limp if he knew there was going to be an upcoming abduction of the girls he interviewed? His previous crimes did not indicate that level of stupidity. No bodies were ever found at his place like you said.
IMO, LLW JR and his group set up R. Mileski as the perpetrator to divert attention away from them. LLW Jr, is a pedophilic drug-selling murderer, practiced in deception years before the Lyon Sisters 75' abduction; a horrendous by-product from a hive of killers. I really believe more of Lloyd Welch Jr.'s crimes will become "public" within the framework of IGG in his other unknown crimes.
Thanks for the opportunity to post.
In LLW Jr.'s first statement, marked LIED, LLW Jr. said to investigators that "the man he saw leaving with the girls "walked with a little limp." What makes his lies more believable is to weave in threads of truth. IF investigators can sort out what the "truth" is. I suggest that group knew Ray Mileski was tape recording in the first place, talking to young girls, for whatever his devious purposes were, without participating in the Lyon Sisters abduction.
(Nothing illegal about recording a kid's voice under voluntarily permission)
Perhaps a group centered around LLW Jr.planned and executed this 75' abduction while LLW Jr. effectively cast the blame elsewhere. Why did R.Mileski have John Lyon's phone number at his home? Why did Raymond Mileski brazenly went out of his way to make his appearance as TRM
at various malls with his tape recorder knowing himself that he walked with a 'easy to spot' limp if he knew there was going to be an upcoming abduction of the girls he interviewed? His previous crimes did not indicate that level of stupidity. No bodies were ever found at his place like you said.
IMO, LLW JR and his group set up R. Mileski as the perpetrator to divert attention away from them. LLW Jr, is a pedophilic drug-selling murderer, practiced in deception years before the Lyon Sisters 75' abduction; a horrendous by-product from a hive of killers. I really believe more of Lloyd Welch Jr.'s crimes will become "public" within the framework of IGG in his other unknown crimes.
Thanks for the opportunity to post.
"LLW Jr, is a pedophilic drug-selling murderer, practiced in deception years before the Lyon Sisters 75' abduction; a horrendous by-product from a hive of killers. I really believe more of Lloyd Welch Jr.'s crimes will become "public" within the framework of IGG in his other unknown crimes."
LLW Jr. was born into a toxic, alcoholic, dysfunctional environment. LLW Sr. killed LLW Jr's pregnant mother, twenty-two year old Margaret Dull Welch, in a drunken car accident in 1960.
Anyway, I don't think LLW Jr. had the wherewithal to abduct and imprison the Lyon sisters by himself. According to LE, they believe the girls were held in the home of LLW Sr in Hyattsville. There is no way that LLW Jr. held those girls in his father's basement without his father's knowledge and assistance.
Years ago, I came across an article about LLW Sr., forgot about it, and never got around to sharing it. LLW Sr. assaulted a woman in Baltimore in the late 50's. He picked up a woman, Catherine E. Grover in a bar, when he could have been at home with his wife Margaret Dull Welch (LLW Jr's birth mother) and his children. LLW Sr. attempted to coerce Mrs. Grover into sex, she refused, so then he shoved her out of his moving car while he was driving down the highway. She was seriously injured and unconscious when a passing trucker saw her on the side of the road. She was hospitalized for 23 days.
LLW Sr. was sentenced to six years in prison, but I don't think he served any or much of his time. If he had served his full sentence, he would have been in prison in 1960 during the time when he drunkenly crashed his car and killed his pregnant wife (LLW's mother.) If LLW Sr. had not killed then two year old LLW Jr's mother, who knows how LLW Jr's life might have turned out.
LLW Jr. was born into a toxic, alcoholic, dysfunctional environment. LLW Sr. killed LLW Jr's pregnant mother, twenty-two year old Margaret Dull Welch, in a drunken car accident in 1960.
Anyway, I don't think LLW Jr. had the wherewithal to abduct and imprison the Lyon sisters by himself. According to LE, they believe the girls were held in the home of LLW Sr in Hyattsville. There is no way that LLW Jr. held those girls in his father's basement without his father's knowledge and assistance.
Years ago, I came across an article about LLW Sr., forgot about it, and never got around to sharing it. LLW Sr. assaulted a woman in Baltimore in the late 50's. He picked up a woman, Catherine E. Grover in a bar, when he could have been at home with his wife Margaret Dull Welch (LLW Jr's birth mother) and his children. LLW Sr. attempted to coerce Mrs. Grover into sex, she refused, so then he shoved her out of his moving car while he was driving down the highway. She was seriously injured and unconscious when a passing trucker saw her on the side of the road. She was hospitalized for 23 days.
LLW Sr. was sentenced to six years in prison, but I don't think he served any or much of his time. If he had served his full sentence, he would have been in prison in 1960 during the time when he drunkenly crashed his car and killed his pregnant wife (LLW's mother.) If LLW Sr. had not killed then two year old LLW Jr's mother, who knows how LLW Jr's life might have turned out.
Attachments
Thank you for taking the time to find and post the entire newspaper publication on the Lloyd L. Welch Sr's auto "accident" Your comment included the word wherewithal made me laugh. As Lloyd puts it, who has money? Uncle Lenny. Also, I commented on his drunken crash previously on the thread "Person of Interest" Post #982 and posted #463 on the thread "Possible Connections" if that is of interest.
I don't believe that Lloyd Lee Welch, SENIOR was living at the house in Hyattsville in March 1975. That house is still standing and it is where investigators searched the basement in 2014 for any evidence.
I posted the following regarding the house on a different thread a few days ago:
This house, located at 4714 Baltimore Ave, Hyattsville, Maryland is where Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr. was living with his mother in March 1975. It is the address that he gave to Montgomery County Police on 1 April 1975 when he voluntarily appeared and claimed to have information about the abduction of the Lyon sisters - in hopes of claiming a reward announced in that morning's newspapers...
Similar threads
Online statistics
- Members online
- 162
- Guests online
- 1,364
- Total visitors
- 1,526