Teachers Pay To Be Based On Students' Test Scores

[deanws]

I think this would force the teachers to "teach to the test" even more than they do now.

I always did the best I could EVERDAY! The children in my classroom are my future. These are the kids that will run the banks, stores, and be doctors in my community. It is in MY BEST INTEREST to do my very best to educate these sweeties....they will run my world when I can not longer do that for myself. Besides, I loved them. :dance:

 

[eve]

Basing teacher pay on student test scores will not improve learning. It MAY improve test scores, but the teachers are the ones with more at stake, so they are the ones who will make sure the students do well. Ensuring that an unmotivated student does well so you get paid will mean "teaching to the test" or "backward by design" -- whatever it's called now, it's wrong. It takes the responsibility for learning out of the students' hands where it belongs. Sometimes it takes failure to learn the biggest lessons.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Eve

 

[deanws]

OOOOH boy, I am a teacher and I cringe at this! I teach at-risk kids (in the old days we would have called them delinquents or incorrigibles)! The day I am rated on the things they do or don't do is the day I find a new profession. This scares me and our staff. The way many parents are now, I don't care how skilled the teacher is, the parents ruin the kids and expect teachers to work miracles while NOT holding them or their kids accountable. You can't do a thing with them (kids or parents)! I have parents who cook meth, lock their kids in boxes, come to conferences drunk, leave town for days while their kids are alone, won't allow their kids to shower more than once a week (hey, hot water's expensive)...these are just a few things that pop into my head. It's sad. Most subs in our district won't even come to our site. It takes a lot of guts to try and work with these kids. I'm just glad if I can impart a few civilized behaviors into their lives. I know there are poor teachers, but this would not be a level playing field, believe me. Many good teachers would leave the ranks, myself included.

Eve

Exactly Eve! :clap: :clap: :clap: I taught the low group every year. The other teachers would fight over whos turn it was to teach them every year. I knew by the tone of the meeting...those poor babies were not going to be treated fairly. I couldn't take that. I was not their fault their parents were drunks, drug users, and in most cases had them to get a bigger welfare check. No...I took them because I thought I could make a difference...and I did.

 

[deanws]

Amen.

I am not a teacher, but I am one of the parents that work very hard with my children so they succeed. Every single one of their teachers, from Kindergarten to current grades, has told me that parents like me are few and far between. (NOT bragging here) I'm still shocked when I hear that.

I think it's wrong to link pay to test scores.

She was telling you the truth. Sad.

 

[deanws]

The worst thing is tenure. Once most teachers receive this they pull back and could care less. Believe me, I have watched it with teachers my kids have had over the years.

Not true! It must be where you live. Most teachers did their best. However, some people should not have been teachers. They just don't "get it". I think the worst thing they ever did was letting people teach on an emergency certificate. Many started doing that when industry took a down turn and they were left without jobs. They all flocked to the teaching jobs. BIG MISTAKE!

 

[deanws]

Well, not really. It's because, are you ready??? Hold on to your seat, they are not allowed to make them feel bad about themselves, or embarrassed them in front of other students. It's such a bunch of BS. That's why our children got to private school. The NYC Board of Education is such a crock. Do you know, that they have 6th graders that are not allowed to read on their own?? The teacher reads Green Eggs and Ham to them, and they all sit in circle while she reads it. I swear to you this is the truth. My husband saw it with his own eyes. It is disgusting what is going on with education in this state.

They can't post grades in the hall of my son's college anymore. It will embarrass the students! What a load of crap. In college, it is a dog eat dog world. They had better be up for it...or they need to go somewhere in the real world and get a job sweeping floors. I mean, no matter where you go or what you do, there is a certain amount of embarrassment that you are going to encounter. That is life folks. I think it is a habit to blame the teachers now days. What ever happened to personal responsibility? It is out the window lately....and not in just the world of education.

 

[deanws]

I completely agree with you, Eve. There are SO MANY multiple layers of issues with this one...where does one begin.

I feel sorry for teachers and the issues they have to contend with in today's society. I can still emphathize with teachers, in spite of the many issues we've had in our own school district re: our son's special needs. We don't blame the teachers...we lay blame right where it belongs...with the school district...and that's a whole 'nuther' story.

They short the high school "Life Skills" class in the district where I used to teach big time! She was the greatest teacher in the world!!! She had to fight for every little thing she did with those kids. It was a crime.

 

[deanws]

I am really enjoying the thoughts on this thread, thank you!

Mr. E, I hear ya. Right now I work 50 hours a week and have 15 "preps." During the day, I teach English 9,10,11,12, Writing Basic Skills (getting them ready for the state test), and the electives of Character Education, Newsletter Production and Creative Writing.

I also teach credit make-up classes after school: English 9,10,11 and 12 and I teach Night School one night a week which is comprised of English 10, 11 and 12. All of my students have failed or been kicked out of the regular high schools or have had interruptions in their education due to drugs, pregnancies, foster care, dropping out, being "on the run," etc. I teach summer school too.

Because of our student population we have a real revenue problem. We get state reimbursement only for "Full-time Enrollments" - it's a complicated formula, but the bottom line is: the revolving door effect and lack of progress by our typical student causes us to have very limited resources, even in comparison to the mainstream schools, who complain regularly of resource problems in most districts.

Therefore, we have only a part-time secretary and no behavior aides, guidance counselors or other specialists (our Social Studies teacher does have her EBD license) and we have by far THE most challenging kids, except those in lock-up somewhere and many of ours are coming to us straight from lock-up.

So, I am also an "advisor" to a group of students, and that includes making sure their grad plans and credits are in order. I have to do my own drops, adds, and much data entry related to student records. I do not have a duty-free lunch and often spend my prep hour de-escalating a student too disruptive to be in a classroom.

I have about 170 students. Outside the classroom, this involves correcting and recording their work, holding conferences, talking to probation officers and parents.

I better not start in on what it's like in the classroom. You get the idea. When people talk about what a cushy job teaching is, I invite them to spend a few days with me at work. They'd keel over, let me tell ya.

Eve

P.S. If I based motivation on pay or pay relating to how well my students did on tests I would have no real motivation at all. My motivation is the hope that I will help some kid see welfare or prison is not the way to go. The only thanks I want is for someone to come back someday and tell me just that.

Bless you.

 

[lynie]

I am the parent of a 10th and 8th grader and have been a volunteer and parent group leader forever it seems! For years this idea has been passed around and although it has been said before by some wonderful minds, I will say it again...bad, bad, bad idea....

No teacher can turn around every student. Even if they had all of the money and time in the world, it cannot be done. There are too many variables including home life, maturity level and worldliness. Also depends on who the students former teachers were...

What would they do with the child that has a natural ablility for math but not reading....one who does not test well but gets all of the day to day work fabulously?

lynie

 

[lynie]

Let me add, (she says while ducking behind something sturdy) that I really don't see tenure as a big problem but have major issues with the unions.

The majority of teachers ALWAYS work above and beyond the call of duty.
Last year however my daughter had a math teacher in high school that was the worst I have ever seen. The school councilor when I was questioning some of the goings-on in the classroom actually said "believe it or not, some people really like him and have learned something from him". It should have been my 1st clue to get her out of there :doh: Anyway, nothing could be done because the union had his back contractually, making it nearly impossible to remove him and replace him with someone that actually gave a da*n...

 

[Jean]

The decision has been made.

HISD Board Unanimously Approves Teacher Pay Plan Click 2 News Houston--1/12/06
$14.5M Plan Rewards Teachers Based On Performance

HOUSTON -- The salary of some of Houston's best teachers will increase by thousands after the Houston Independent School District's board members unanimously approved a new bonus system Thursday that rewards educators based on the performance of their students, KPRC Local 2 reported.

Board members voted 9-0 Thursday in favor of approving the $14.5 million plan in which teachers could earn up to three bonuses for a total of $3,000 a year due to the success of their students.

The approval makes HISD, the state's largest and the nation's seventh largest school district, to reward teachers for their students' performance. More than 200,000 students attend HISD schools.

"I think the real winners are the students, and along with the students are teachers as well," HISD Superintendent Abelardo Saavedra said. "I think it is time that not only this district but, quite frankly, every district in this country start looking at a different way that we can compensate our professionals."

More at link: http://www.click2houston.com/education/6023776/detail.html

 

[Details]

I don't think it'll be as bad as some think. Every field that deals with the public has this type of system - salespeople get commission, or get fired or promoted based on their sales - even though there's nothing they can do if the luck of the draw gives them all the broke customers. Over time it averages out, and it does really show who is doing well and who isn't. Perhaps this could be used as a way to start loosening the controls on teachers methods - let them use whatever methods they like, within reason, so long as the results are there. It'd be a good way to get things like mandated Whole Language out of the schools - let the teachers who love Whole Language use it, and see if their students can do as well on the tests as the teachers who use phonics, and actually correct their students spelling!

Actually, it should go all the way up - the principals and administrators and councellors should have the exact same pay system, by how well their students are doing.

 

[kylie]

As a hard-working public school teacher, let me tell you that tenure protects us from psycho administrators and also fear does not motivate me...teaching is such hard work that the day I must be fearful of losing my job is the day I quit......we work our asses off only to have kids ditch and fail to turn in work...I like the students but they are not being pushed at home to succeed....

 

[Mr. E]

Actually, it should go all the way up - the principals and administrators and councellors should have the exact same pay system, by how well their students are doing.

Good point, Details. Let's bing the administration into it! I'm sure some districts have very good administration. My principal is great, I love her to death, and she has really turned our school around in just five years (we're finalists right now in a huge state award for best high school in the state and we've won four football championships in a row). How she accomplishes this while working for the idiot of a superintendent at the district office is beyond me. This is a man who was taking a vacation -- I'm sorry, attending a conference -- at a beach resort on the district money while every single teacher in the entire district was denied their paycheck three summers ago!

 

[eve]

Bless you.

Thank you so much. After the day I've had, you don't know what that means. Every night when I go to bed, I remember how much I want to help the kids. The unions, the school boards, the parents, well - they are not in my classroom and have no idea wht I am dealing with and how the world has changed, since I was a girl in school. I have to focus on the kids and making the world a better place. Otherwise, I would quit and I'm not a quitter. Thanks for appreciating teachers.

Eve

 

[Details]

Good point, Details. Let's bing the administration into it! I'm sure some districts have very good administration. My principal is great, I love her to death, and she has really turned our school around in just five years (we're finalists right now in a huge state award for best high school in the state and we've won four football championships in a row). How she accomplishes this while working for the idiot of a superintendent at the district office is beyond me. This is a man who was taking a vacation -- I'm sorry, attending a conference -- at a beach resort on the district money while every single teacher in the entire district was denied their paycheck three summers ago!

It's how it works in the real world - your pay, your promotions are all about your stats - all the way up! Superintendents too - let's put in some penalties that roll up when idiot policies are put in place that either drive good teachers away, or don't work to teach children.

 

[Lynni]

That is how it works in the real world, Details, but the school system is not exactly the real world-for too many reasons to get into here. I am a former sped teacher and can honestly say that working for the school is unlike any other job I've ever had. It's run completely different than an office. The schools I worked at were anyway. Schools prepare kids for the real world-schools aren't the real world imo.

My husband sells water well supplies for a living and his bonus is based on his amount of sales. Since I taught sped, I ended up with the most difficult, challenging children in the school. Kids that came from very dysfunctional families who weren't interested in school, kids that had learning disabilities that made it next to impossible for them to read, kids that spit at me, bit me, threatened to kill me etc. I have 2 points to make here:

One, I really don't think it would be fair if Mrs. Smith down the hall were to get more money because she teaches kids that are more receptitve to learning than mine. That's one thing people forget about teaching-not all kids want to learn and are willing to learn. I can show up everyday and do my very best, but some kids will fight me every step of the way. I tried for years to tell my husband-that's the hardest part of my job is getting the kids to want to learn-they don't all have that desire. Which is a large part of why they ended up in my sped room. I had one student who sat under the table all day long, screaming as loud as he could.

Two, So my husband gets money based on how many pumps he sells, but the pumps don't have a say in whether they get sold or not. Kids can do poorly on tests for many reasons that shouldn't always be attributed to poor teaching. I've had students purposely do poorly on tests just so they could be assigned to easier classes the next year. I also know of teachers falsifying test results to make it look like the kids made progress or making it look as if the kids did poorly so they would receive more teaching assistants the following year. Getting paid based on your performance is cut and dry, which is the way it is in most businesses, but in the world of teaching, there are just too many variables to make it work.

My own son (6 yrs) is in sped right now and he is extremely difficult to test. He has an excellent teacher who does a very, very competent job. He always scores low on tests, but it isn't b/c he has a bad teacher. He can't process information-that shouldn't be reflected in his teacher's salary.

A lot of the things she works with my son on are things you can't even test for such as knowing when to come inside after recess. Attending to tasks, lunchroom routines, social skills etc. They aren't measurable things.

So I think as a teacher and as a parent this is a bad, bad idea. Let's face it in every profession, there are good and bad employees. In that area, schools aren't any different than other professions.

 

[Mr. E]

Very well said, Lynni.

 

[deanws]

Lynni..........:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Great post.

 

[Marthatex]

A school system is not like a corporation - sure, their employees should perform - be on time, work hard, produce - bu their product, little human beings, are variable, unpredictable and some are limited in their potential.

IMO learning should be made interesting and creative, and not entirely focused on what WE THINK should be the end product - good test scores in every area. Some things cannot be measured very well - initiative, relative improvement, creative potential, stick-to-itaveness; many additional things a child can learn from a teacher.

What a shame for children if all teachers were measured in the same way. (once I wasted most of 4th grade because I had a teacher who taught me pastels and appreciation for opera)

But guess what, I got into college just fine and I remember more about LaBoheme and the field trip we took than any math I learned.

No, NO, teachers are trained to teach, let them do it, they already have enough pressure with parents and all the tests, and difficult children; evaluate them by not only how the children are doing but by the QUALITY of their teaching and effort.