Team JonBenet

[BBB167893]

Sounds right.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

How many things in McCulkins sold for $2.29?

 

[Brefie]

How many things in McCulkins sold for $2.29?

Probably lots.

Why would they not hand over the credit card info?

 

[BBB167893]

How many things in McCulkins sold for $2.29?

Probably plenty, but it's still one heck of a coincidence.

 

[shiloh]

But what evidence did you see or hear about that told you the Rs are just weird and not murderers? The Rs saying we didn't do it and couldn't have? The words of their friends, saying it would be Jekyll and Hyde a thousand times over?

Speaking of Jekyll and Hyde, here's a description of JR from Mike Glynn, who met the Ramseys in 1991. (This incident was prior to 12/26/96). "He was shouting and threatening, his eyes bulging like you cannot believe. It seemed like Jekyll and Hyde."

 

[BBB167893]

Speaking of Jekyll and Hyde, here's a description of JR from Mike Glynn, who met the Ramseys in 1991. (This incident was prior to 12/26/96). "He was shouting and threatening, his eyes bulging like you cannot believe. It seemed like Jekyll and Hyde."

Shiloh, have you read concernedperson's post on the "Patsy Encounter?" I wish cp were here to explain it.

 

[shiloh]

Shiloh, have you read concernedperson's post on the "Patsy Encounter?" I wish cp were here to explain it.

No, I'll look it up. Thanks.

 

[BBB167893]

No, I'll look it up. Thanks.

It's in my notes, but I don't want to step on CP's toes.

 

[aussiesheila]

The DNA in the panties was old and degraded and is not definitely linked to an intruder.

You might be right but it is my understanding that foreign (non-Ramsey) DNA was obtained from the panties.

The hair on the blanket was not a pubic hair but an ancillary hair, like from someone's arm, and it was traced back through analysis to someone in Patsy's family. (ST's book)

Sorry Nuisanceposter, but ST as a reliable scource - that is just not on.

There's no way to age that skid mark on the wall, and there was no debris around there indicating someone had come through the window, which had an intact spider web spanned across. Those windows measure 18 by 30 inches.

It is the opinion of some experts that an exit could have been effected from that window and there to be an intact spider web by the time the photos were taken the next day.

The doors and alarm system in the R house were not locked or on that night. Any door would have sufficed for exit/entry and been a better choice than those tiny windows.

True, but maybe one of the intruders chose to come in and out that way because he felt there was less chance of detection if he entered at the basement level.

Anything under JonBenet's nails could have been there for any length of time (no proof she had a bath that day - Patsy can't seem to remember) and when her nails were clipped for analysis in the coroner's office, they didn't use a clean set of clippers for each nail like they were supposed to. There's no solid proof that anything under her nails came from an intruder.

I don't think this is correct. Wasn't foreign male DNA found under her fingernails?

The animal hair could possibly have come from one of Patsy's paint or make up brushes. Does not prove an intruder when we don't know the source and there are possibilities inside the home.

The animal hair did not match anything in the house or so they said.

Cigarette butts and debris stirred up - again, no way to age how long that had been like that. The cigarette butts are interesting though, as I've never heard of them. Did they test the saliva on the butts for DNA and try to trace them that way?

When shown photographs Patsy seemed to think they were fresh. So must the police photographers who were looking for signs of entry of the kidnapper or they probably wouldn't have photographed them.

Why not test for DNA on the butts? Hmm, didn't think of that, what an interesting suggestion. You've got me thinking. I think that will have to go in my conspiracy-to-deliberately-bungle-the-investigation theory.

I have never heard of lengths of white cord found outside

That's because there wasn't any - it was only my bad english grammar that made you think that there was, sorry.

 

[aussiesheila]

This post above basically says everything we are discussing hinges on Don abusing Patsy, no?

I think you might be overstating things a little here, Brefie.

So when I challenge you, you produce this:

aussiesheila
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brefie
Good Lord. You don't FIGHT off a child molester everytime he wants to have his way with your child. I imagine you only have to let most abusers that you are on to them to get them to stop. I mean, really, if it's an on-going struggle to keep a child abuser away, then that's just plain demented and why wouldn't you shop them to the police???
It's not a matter of having to FIGHT off a child molester at all. The molester isn't going to do anything in front of Patsy or John for heaven's sake. In fact child molesters go out of their way to be friendly and helpful and generally well-liked and trusted by the parents. That way the mother (in this case) is going to feel happy leaving her daughter in the care of these people for whatever reason. She is never going to see any evidence of the abuse unless it is those vague symptoms that a pediatrician (if he is unscrupulous) can reassure the mother are due to innocent things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brefie
And I have NEVER, EVER heard of a mother just 'having to accept' that her husband's best friend is joining in the 'abuse'. Why wouldn't she just tell John?
Are you saying that because you have NEVER, EVER heard of a mother just 'having to accept' that her husband's best friend is joining in the 'abuse' that it never happens? This is erroneous thinking, a lot of things happen in the world that most people never hear about.

I am saying that in Patsy's case I think she must have decided, however subconciously, to accept what was happening. Clearly IMO, she suspected something because she was constantly taking JonBenet to Dr B. She seemed to accept his excuses for all the complaints that JonBenet suffered from, so she didn't really put up a fight, I say in that sense, she 'accepted' the abuse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brefie
And 'POSSIBLY' joined in the abusing? Are you suggesting that Patsy offered up JonBenet to so many people she wasn't quite sure who all of the members were?
What I am saying is that just as she never saw her father do anything to JonBenet, she never saw this other person either. I have never suggested she 'offered up' JonBenet to anyone. I think the friend would have started abusing JonBenet at parties or when she came over to play with his daughter. Patsy would have seen indications but again, she went to Dr B, and again he made all the excuses that Patsy accepted.

Why didn't she tell John? Too difficult? Easier and more comfortable to keep it hidden? That is as close as I can can get to a reason.

The thing is that with situations like this it all starts so gradually and builds up little by little so that by the time you take a stand you are already involved yourself in that you have allowed it to happen for some time before blowing the whistle. The cunning abusers know this and use it against you, so that if Patsy was to tell John, she not only would have to face up to the fact that she was abused as a child, she would also have to explain to him why she had let it get to the stage it had.

Easier to ignore it and expect JonBenet to live with it, just as she did. What we experience in our families as children we accept as 'normal'. I don't think we ever escape from that. If the 'normal' experiences of your childhood happen to your own child it is much easier to accept.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brefie
I don't know whose opinion of Patsy is worse....I daresay it's yours.
Although I feel pretty angry at Patsy, I keep telling myself she was a victim, which she was and she really should be pitied. If she was sexually abused by her father as a child she would have been very damaged by it. Not all victims are fortunate enough to get the therapy or whatever is required to get them to face up to what happened to them as a child and to begin to recover from it and heal to whatever extent is possible and to call themselves survivors. I think must be enormously confronting and traumatic to start this process and some people just never manage to do it for whatever reason and I would not like to judge them for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brefie
Edited to add: what makes you think Don abused Patsy?
.I'll have to leave my answer to this for the time being. I don't have the sources at my fingertips but I do have some. Will post later. Jayelles has the best one

If your argument hinges on Don molesting Patsy, how on earth are we supposed to discuss this?

I don't quite understand what you are on about Brefie, I tried to answer all your posts as best I could. I did not have time to locate Jayelles post that included the link to the videotaped interview of Patsy's body language in response to a question about her father which I thought was very telling because I otherwise occupied. I still have not located it, but no doubt you have seen it anyway.

There is also the oft-quoted statement of Nedra's that JonBenet was only "a little bit abused" which led me to suspect that she might have very well lived with abuse in her own home, her husband being a perpetrator.

Not much to go on I agree, and if you choose to say none of this means anything then fine and if you think DP shapes up as purer than the driven snow then that's fine too. All I am trying to do is to come up with the most satisfactory explanation with why JonBenet was murdered. Facts are very thin on the ground and IMO the notion that DP might have abused his daughters and granddaughter is not too far-fetched an idea to have suggested as part of the whole complicated scenario.

 

[aussiesheila]

You're willing to believe that Patsy brought over Pedophiles to molest JonBenet yet she would not be capable of killing her??? Puleeez!

No Toltec, I don't believe Patsy brought over Pedophiles to molest JonBenet at all.

When asked about the fibers from her sweater, Patsy goes on to say that Priscilla had a sweater like hers...going so far as to say she might have borrowed the sweater Christmas night because she might have been a little chilly???? HUH??? She is clearly obfuscating the question, throwing a monkey wrench as they say.

Yes, she is isn't she. She does it all the time. I quite agree.

That sweater of Patsy's sure got around that night....going as far as the paint tote and the cord wrapped around that baby's neck. And how does Patsy explain that??? "Oh, Priscilla has a sweater like mine."

The flashlight? "It kind of looks like one John owns"

The duct tape? "It's too gooey."

Yes I agree, Patsy is very skilled at answering a question with an answer that is essentially information free. Most of Patsy's answers are unsatisfactory to a high degree indicating IMO that she is not telling the whole truth and is covering up something. But IMO it is not that she killed JonBenet herself but because she does know who did and shares some blame for JonBenet's death doesn't really want the whole truth to come out.

 

[aussiesheila]

Are you saying Patsy's father sexually abused her? This is the first I ever heard of that.

It is my opinion that he very likely did Goody. If you want to know why I think this please would you read my post 190, two back on this thread.

 

[BBB167893]

"You might be right but it is my understanding that foreign (non-Ramsey) DNA was obtained from the panties."

Yes, but it was in such sorry shape that the DNA experts consulted didn't think it was of any meaning.

"Sorry Nuisanceposter, but ST as a reliable scource - that is just not on."

Maybe not, but there was an article long after he'd left the force that said the hair was from Patsy's arm.

"It is the opinion of some experts that an exit could have been effected from that window and there to be an intact spider web by the time the photos were taken the next day."

Dr. Opell from W. Virginia said that it was unlikely, since this particular spider is known for laziness.

"Wasn't foreign male DNA found under her fingernails?"

Yes, but that's even weaker than the panty DNA. If you don't believe me, remind me to tell you about Dennis Dechaine sometime!

"Patsy is very skilled at answering a question with an answer that is essentially information free. Most of Patsy's answers are unsatisfactory to a high degree indicating IMO that she is not telling the whole truth and is covering up something."

Mike Kane said something similar a while ago: said that he never felt he was getting a spontaneous response, like it was all memorized.