Ted Haggard now "completely heterosexual"

[Nova]

"There's even an expression for a "temporary lesbian" in the community, but it escapes me at the moment."

I believe that is called "doing an Anne Heche".

LOL. That wasn't the one I meant, but I'm sure everyone would understand it.

These aren't the ones I mean either, but I found them on Wikipedia:

"Lesbian Until Graduation" or "LUG" (but that's younger women)

and

"Heteroflexible"

 

[j2mirish]

:laugh: :laugh: :clap: :clap:

As far as I know, being gay doesn't make you an a-hole. Being an a-hole make you an a-hole.

I like you !

 

[j2mirish]

No, but I can tell you from experience that pretending 24/7 is really exhausting. We all tend to get cranky when we're tired.

(ETA this is not meant to excuse the abusive ex-husband's behavior. I mean, in this day and age? As the Australians say, "Wake up to yourself!")

I cant imagine....:blowkiss:

what a fricking waste of energy--

 

[SeriouslySearching]

OK For starters, I thought this story was a joke! Then I realized, he was being serious! Oh, MY! When will politicians, evangelists, and the like realize we are not stupid enough to buy this 'repentance' act, "I am so sorry I slept with the hooker, wife, teenager, male page, female intern, etc."?! They can stop insulting our intelligence with their public apologies and attempts to rectify their own shortcomings. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck...

By the way, there is no known CURE for homosexuality...because it isn't a disease! Sheesh! :snooty:

 

[curious1]

Nova, having been 'around the block' with the gay issue, what advice would you give to a 23 year old female who's mother thinks that all she has to do is get her into church and have them pray for her and she will be normal? My sister has used terms like 'fight the devil' etc. It just makes me so mad. I have gay friends who are very active in their chruch, so I understand that not all 'churches' are bigoted idiots. I was thinking of telling my niece to see if she could find a church that was accepting of her and she could then tell her mom, I am in church I am fine. Would that be too sarcastic?

 

[spclk]

What wonderful, thoughtful responses on this thread! I just wanted to put in my 2 cents worth on gays and church. If churches did not let anyone come who was sinning, they would be empty! I am a Christian, and get very angry when preachers or church members get "on their high horse" regarding homosexuality. Know matter what your beliefs are on the subject, we all have sinned, we all continue to sin and every person sitting in a church pew is just as guilty as the rest of us. This is what forgiveness and grace are all about!

It is my belief that every christian has to pray about their beliefs and listen to where God leads them and it is no one else's business. With that being said, I have compassion for Ted Haggard as his sins have become much more public, but they are no worse than my sins. I would hate for everything I have ever done wrong to come out in the media and I think he deserves a 2nd chance just as the rest of us do. I don't think it is fair that ministers and christians alike are expected to be perfect and are blasted when they make a mistake. If everyone could be more accepting of each other and the mistakes we all make, wow wouldn't the world be a great place!

 

[kcksum]

Nova, I indeed did not mean to compare drug addicts to homosexuals other than their behavior as you stated. I just find human nature an interesting study and wondered what the opinions from others was regarding using therapy to help change behavior "IF" change is desired in the case of someone who is homosexual. We don't really know if he is homosexual, bi-sexual, or was just experimenting. We also don't know if these are feelings he has had his whole life or if they result from a life experience.

I personally believe, that yes, many people are born "homosexual", but I also believe that many turn to that due to experiences in their life that have influenced it (though far fewer). Thanks for your excellent response!

great post, I agree with everything you said. I have read books and articles by men who have received counseling for what they considered was an "addiction" to gay sex and they report to be relieved of that addiction and living very happy heterosexual lives. They went through behavior modification and 12 step programs. I don't think this is a case where anyoneis saying what is right for ALL homosexual. But I agree with you that if someone sees their behavior as wrong, they can work to eliminate said bad behavior from their life.
As far as heterosexuals changing their orientation to homosexual through therapy....I think if said heterosexual thought their behavior to be wrong or damaging, that through therapy and behavior mod they could change it. I think a good stuck to 12 step program can halp change any and all behavior. Its about that individual persons perception of the behavior, not what the world thinks about homosexuality.
Am I making sense at all?Probably not.lol.

 

[curious1]

...snip...I don't think it is fair that ministers and christians alike are expected to be perfect and are blasted when they make a mistake. If everyone could be more accepting of each other and the mistakes we all make, wow wouldn't the world be a great place!

But when you have ministers and christians (not all mind you) who sit in judgement and point fingers like they have any right to pass judgement on others I think they should be blasted. Some of these ministers and 'christians' truly believe that their interpretation of the bible is the only true intrepretation and they look down on and condemm anyone who disagrees with them. They are the ones thinking they are perfect and everyone else is imperfect. Again I know that not all ministers and 'christians' are like this, but unfortunatly the vast number that I see on a day to day basis are. That is why coming here and reading opinions from people who are openminded 'chrisitans' is so nice.

 

[kcksum]

But when you have ministers and christians (not all mind you) who sit in judgement and point fingers like they have any right to pass judgement on others I think they should be blasted. Some of these ministers and 'christians' truly believe that their interpretation of the bible is the only true intrepretation and they look down on and condemm anyone who disagrees with them. They are the ones thinking they are perfect and everyone else is imperfect. Again I know that not all ministers and 'christians' are like this, but unfortunatly the vast number that I see on a day to day basis are. That is why coming here and reading opinions from people who are openminded 'chrisitans' is so nice.

I think that if people don't agree with what a prticular minsiter or "christian" in athority says they should just turn their ears off and walk away. I think for Rosies to weigh in on this issue as if this man really offended her is ridiculous. She could have cared less what this man had to say or who believed it until it made national news. Why does she or anyone else care? If the man thinks he can change his behavior, then so be it. Why does anyone who is secure in their own sexuality care what anyone else thinks? I am a happy heterosexual, I do not spend anytime worrying about how homosexuals perceive me. Why do homosexuals worry so much about how I perceive them? Before anyone says that homosexuals don't worry about it, the whole reason we're discussing this is because someone is upset that this man says he is now "cured" wether anyone agrees with him or not, why would it matter to anyone else if this man thinks he can " pray away the gay". I am really curious about this, because it fascinates me how this issue polarizes our country. I just think we all need to quit focusing so much on what everyone else is doing in the bedroom. It shoudl be a persons own decision to believe what they want to believe and to raise their children to believe what they feel is best for their child to believe.....just like any other parenting decision.

 

[Nova]

Nova, having been 'around the block' with the gay issue, what advice would you give to a 23 year old female who's mother thinks that all she has to do is get her into church and have them pray for her and she will be normal? My sister has used terms like 'fight the devil' etc. It just makes me so mad. I have gay friends who are very active in their chruch, so I understand that not all 'churches' are bigoted idiots. I was thinking of telling my niece to see if she could find a church that was accepting of her and she could then tell her mom, I am in church I am fine. Would that be too sarcastic?

Not in my book. But I don't think anyone should go to church for somebody else's sake or just to prove a point.

I would say to your niece (with great sympathy), "Yeah, this sucks. But everyone (gay and straight) has to decide at some point whether she will live her life for herself, or to please mommy and daddy."

And if your niece misses church - and many gay people do - you can reassure her that there are churches where she will be welcome. She might look for a Metropolitan Community Church (MCC); they were founded by gay people. But I just read yesterday of Southern Baptist churches in NC leaving the Southern Baptist association because of its intolerance toward gay members. So there are choices.

And BTW, YOUR acceptance and support of your niece is very important. Despite what I wrote above, none of us wants to give up our family entirely.

 

[Nova]

What wonderful, thoughtful responses on this thread! I just wanted to put in my 2 cents worth on gays and church. If churches did not let anyone come who was sinning, they would be empty! I am a Christian, and get very angry when preachers or church members get "on their high horse" regarding homosexuality. Know matter what your beliefs are on the subject, we all have sinned, we all continue to sin and every person sitting in a church pew is just as guilty as the rest of us. This is what forgiveness and grace are all about!

I know you mean well, but sexuality is a fundamental part of anyone's psychological being. Most gay people have no interest in churches that call our most intimate and loving relationships "sinful." No matter how well we are treated by kind and thoughtful Christians such as yourself. (I mean that last phrase literally. I am not being sarcastic.)

I don't think it is fair that ministers and christians alike are expected to be perfect and are blasted when they make a mistake. If everyone could be more accepting of each other and the mistakes we all make, wow wouldn't the world be a great place!

You are right. But in fairness, the intolerance originated in churches, not with those of us who are different. When a minister from a reasonable, tolerant denomination comes out, most of us don't react at all. It's when the hypocrites from intolerant churches fall that we laugh.

 

[curious1]

Nova, thanks. I have pretty much told her that and she's pretty much come to the conclusion herself. She realizes that no matter what she does she cannot please her mom and it's not just the 'gay thing' either. Her mom tells her to look for a job, she goes out and applies, but they are not the kinds of jobs her mom wants her to have. And believe me it's not in the spirit of I just don't want you to settle I want you to have better, it's in the spirit of I know you want to work with kids, but I want to control your life so I don't want you to apply for jobs you really want. Dear sister just needs to get over herself and work on getting her own life straight, like getting away from her abusive hubby and getting a job herself, before she tries to tell a 23 year old how to live her life and I have told my sister that as well so I am in the dog house too. But I like it out here, it's got a door and a window and I have bones to chew on and toys to play with.

 

[Nova]

great post, I agree with everything you said. I have read books and articles by men who have received counseling for what they considered was an "addiction" to gay sex and they report to be relieved of that addiction and living very happy heterosexual lives. They went through behavior modification and 12 step programs. I don't think this is a case where anyoneis saying what is right for ALL homosexual. But I agree with you that if someone sees their behavior as wrong, they can work to eliminate said bad behavior from their life.

It is not at all clear that this is true for homosexuals. (Oh, sure, we can be celebate and frustrated. But I assume we are talking about integrating the change into a healthy life.) A lot of the "ex-gay" evidence is fraudulent. And a lot of the men who write those testimonials are just kidding themselves; they later revert to the behaviors they claimed to have put behind them.

The important thing to remember is we aren't just talking about sexual acts. Anybody can abstain from sex (though how long s/he abstains may vary). But a homosexual person loves and cares for a member of his/her own sex, just as heterosexuals do. Think about not just giving up sex with your husband, but every other aspect of your relationship (and all hope of ever having such a partnership again) when we talk about giving up being gay.

As far as heterosexuals changing their orientation to homosexual through therapy....I think if said heterosexual thought their behavior to be wrong or damaging, that through therapy and behavior mod they could change it. I think a good stuck to 12 step program can halp change any and all behavior. Its about that individual persons perception of the behavior, not what the world thinks about homosexuality.
Am I making sense at all?Probably not.lol.

You're expressing your point clearly, but you're wrong (in all or almost all cases). Sexuality is much more complicated and deeply ingrained than addiction (as problematic as the latter may be).

People can be brainwashed into all sorts of odd behavior, but brainwashing almost always requires separating the individual from other influences. Put that individual back into their world and the brainwashing comes undone.

If a sincere belief that homosexuality is wrong were enough to provoke a change, most gays would be straight. Nearly all of us thought it was wrong at some point.

 

[Nova]

I think that if people don't agree with what a prticular minsiter or "christian" in authority says they should just turn their ears off and walk away. I think for Rosie to weigh in on this issue as if this man really offended her is ridiculous...

Rev. Haggard has been a public figure and quite outspoken on the "sinfulness" of gay people. We may well assume he has had more than a little impact on the views of his listeners.

Turns out he is a hypocrite. That is news.

And instead of true contrition and openness, we get (courtesy of his friends) this absurd claim of an instant "cure."

Rev. Haggard has compounded hypocrisy with yet more hypocrisy. That, too, is news.

It's not as if Rosie or any of us tracked Haggard down, invaded his bedroom and reported on what we found. He himself made this a public issue.

 

[Nova]

Nova, thanks. I have pretty much told her that and she's pretty much come to the conclusion herself. She realizes that no matter what she does she cannot please her mom and it's not just the 'gay thing' either. Her mom tells her to look for a job, she goes out and applies, but they are not the kinds of jobs her mom wants her to have. And believe me it's not in the spirit of I just don't want you to settle I want you to have better, it's in the spirit of I know you want to work with kids, but I want to control your life so I don't want you to apply for jobs you really want. Dear sister just needs to get over herself and work on getting her own life straight, like getting away from her abusive hubby and getting a job herself, before she tries to tell a 23 year old how to live her life and I have told my sister that as well so I am in the dog house too. But I like it out here, it's got a door and a window and I have bones to chew on and toys to play with.

Good for you!

I certainly don't want to understate the difficulty of dealing with a homophobic family, but it sounds like your niece has a number of what shrinks call "separation issues." She will be happier and stronger when she stops letting her mother call the shots.

 

[curious1]

She's great. Once she got over the intial disappointment in her mom she's now like 'what ever'. She just lets her mom talk then calls me and tells me about it then chuckles and says 'oh well, she is who she is'.


I agree with you about Rev Haggard, that he put himself out there as a paragon of virtue who had the right to judge others. The old saying 'he doth protest too much' always comes to mind when someone starts railing on people being gay.

 

[southcitymom]

great post, I agree with everything you said. I have read books and articles by men who have received counseling for what they considered was an "addiction" to gay sex and they report to be relieved of that addiction and living very happy heterosexual lives. They went through behavior modification and 12 step programs. I don't think this is a case where anyoneis saying what is right for ALL homosexual. But I agree with you that if someone sees their behavior as wrong, they can work to eliminate said bad behavior from their life.
As far as heterosexuals changing their orientation to homosexual through therapy....I think if said heterosexual thought their behavior to be wrong or damaging, that through therapy and behavior mod they could change it. I think a good stuck to 12 step program can halp change any and all behavior. Its about that individual persons perception of the behavior, not what the world thinks about homosexuality.
Am I making sense at all?Probably not.lol.

As a recovering addict who attends a 12-step fellowship, I just wanted to chuck in my :twocents: that there's no way a 12-step program could change my predominantly heterosexual orientaion - even if I badly wanted to change it. And I've been attending 12-step meetings and working a program for 12+ years so I have an idea of the kind of exquisite change that can occur in such an environment.

However, 12-step progams are based on honesty - worked correctly, they lead you to deeper honest self-appraisal. Many gays "come out" after exposure to 12-step programs.

Sexual orientation and addiction are simply not comparable from a recovery standpoint. Sexual addiction is comparable, but addiction is not orientation. I don't know if his post makes any sense - I fear I am failing to be clear. How and who we love and how and who we relate to others sexually is almost impossible to change.

 

[Cypros]

Let me first say, that I do not consider homosexuality a disease. However, if it is behavior that you want to change, much like drug or alcohol use, why couldn't therapy help you change that behavior? A recovered drug addict may still want the drug, but realizes that it is unhealthy and chooses not to do it. Do you all not believe that there could be such a thing as a "recovered homosexual"?

I am not defending him, but do believe that he can control his actions "IF" this is what he chooses to do. Just putting it out there for opinions.......

Sexuality isn't a "behavior", it is part of who you are.

 

[spclk]

I know you mean well, but sexuality is a fundamental part of anyone's psychological being. Most gay people have no interest in churches that call our most intimate and loving relationships "sinful." No matter how well we are treated by kind and thoughtful Christians such as yourself. (I mean that last phrase literally. I am not being sarcastic.)


Nova,

I thank you for your insightfullness....I consider this a learning experience just as many of the threads on the board help to broaden my horizons. I did not mean to imply that your lifestyle is in any way "sinful".....that is absolutely between you and God and I would hope I would never judge anyone concerning their sexuality. But, most christians take the literal "biblical view" that homosexuality is a sin and that is what I was referring to. I personally believe that every person has to decide what God's will is for their life and follow that path. My frustration lies (and has for many years) in people who speak out against homosexuality because it is an easy target for their audience (because, let's be real, most churches aren't filling up the pews with gay parishioners) and they tend to seldom speak about the things that their congregation are doing that truly hurts others and really sets a poor example as Christians. Churches should concentrate more on dealing with the lying, adultery, gossipping, stealing, and judgemental actions that take place with Christians.

I am blessed to be part of a church that just loves everyone and does not condemn. However, I grew up in a hell, fire and brimstone church and luckily found my way to a church that tries to live by the example of Jesus and just "love" people flaws and all.

 

[spclk]

Sexuality isn't a "behavior", it is part of who you are.

I have to disagree with Cypros in that alot of sexuality is a behavior. Those who are very promiscuos and practicing unsafe sex are certainly engaing in a "behavior" that is unhealthy. Many people experiment with same sex encounters and are not gay. So, I agree that "homosexuality" OR "heterosexuality" is part of who we are as humans but, alot of sexuality is "chosen behavior".

I know that in my younger days, my sexuality was more a "behavior" than a reflection on my true self...thankfully I grew up and became much more responsible. :blushing: